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Scottish leaders’ debate: Sturgeon accused of financial ‘black hole’ Scottish leaders’ debate: Sturgeon accused of financial ‘black hole’
(about 1 hour later)
Nicola Sturgeon and Jim Murphy have clashed over the economy in the second Scottish leaders’ debate this week.Nicola Sturgeon and Jim Murphy have clashed over the economy in the second Scottish leaders’ debate this week.
In a series of fractious exchanges between the pair which dominated the hour-long BBC Scotland broadcast from the University of Aberdeen’s Elphinstone Hall, Murphy accused the Scottish National party leader of planning a “black hole” in Scotland’s finances after she confirmed she would introduce full fiscal autonomy for Scotland within a year if given the opportunity by Westminster, despite claims by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that it would leave an immediate £7.6bn shortfall in Scotland’s finances. In a series of fractious exchanges between the pair which dominated the hour-long BBC Scotland broadcast from the University of Aberdeen’s Elphinstone Hall, Murphy accused the Scottish National party leader of planning for a “black hole” in Scotland’s finances after she confirmed she would introduce full fiscal autonomy for Scotland within a year if given the opportunity by Westminster. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned that this would leave an immediate £7.6bn shortfall.
Sturgeon also insisted that a vote for the SNP in this election was not a vote for a referendum, after she suggested in Tuesday night’s STV debate that the party would hold another independence referendum if it wins next year’s Holyrood elections on a manifesto promising a second vote. Sturgeon also insisted that a vote for the SNP in May’s general election was not a vote for a referendum, after she suggested in Tuesday night’s STV debate that the party would hold another independence poll if it were to win the 2016 Holyrood election on a manifesto promising a second vote.
“A vote for the SNP in this election is not a vote for a referendum. It’s a vote to have Scotland’s voice heard in Westminster,” she insisted. “I do accept the result of the referendum. There is a triple lock on this. Before it is inserted in the manifesto, public opinion has to change, and then people have to vote for the manifesto if it is in it, then people have to vote for independence.” Under close questioning from the Scottish Labour leader on the SNP’s position on full fiscal autonomy – giving Scotland complete control of taxation and spending – Sturgeon revealed that she wanted it “as quickly as the other parties agree to give it” and that SNP MPs would vote for it in the next Westminster parliament.
Highlighting this new commitment, Murphy said: “The most important thing Nicola has said tonight is that SNP MPs would next year vote for full fiscal autonomy.
“Nicola’s own financial advisers have said it is a bad deal for Scotland and will leave a black hole. Business leaders say it will leave a black hole. Most importantly, trade unions say it will leave a black hole.
“This is the idea that we cut ourselves off from sources of taxation across the UK. After the difficult time that Aberdeen and the north-east of Scotland has been through, the idea that we voluntarily give up the pooling and sharing of resources, the ability to transfer money across these islands. I don’t think it makes sense.”
He said Labour’s mansion tax would hit just 0.3% of Scots but that the country would benefit from “tens of millions of pounds of money coming from London and the south-east”.
Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie was applauded when he interjected: “What Nicola needs to accept is that she lost the referendum last year.”
In a later section of the debate, Sturgeon clarified her position on a future referendum, saying: “A vote for the SNP in this election is not a vote for a referendum. It’s a vote to have Scotland’s voice heard in Westminster.”
She insisted: “I do accept the result of the referendum. There is a triple lock on this. Before it is inserted in the manifesto, public opinion has to change, and then people have to vote for the manifesto if it is in it. Then people have to vote for independence.
“Politicians don’t dictate this, the people are in charge. That’s the basis of democracy.”“Politicians don’t dictate this, the people are in charge. That’s the basis of democracy.”
Pressed on what that material change might be, she suggested it could happen “if the Tories decided to drag us out of the European Union against our will”.Pressed on what that material change might be, she suggested it could happen “if the Tories decided to drag us out of the European Union against our will”.
The SNP leader, whose profile has risen substantially across the UK since her appearance in the first UK-wide leaders’ debate last Thursday, added: “It would be outrageous for any politician to stand up and rule out a referendum forever and a day because that is not a decision for politicians to make.” The SNP leader, whose profile has risen substantially across the UK since her appearance in the first UK-wide leaders’ debate last Thursday, added: “It would be outrageous for any politician to stand up and rule out a referendum forever and a day and the reason for that is it is not a decision for politicians to make.”
But the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson, appeared to contradict David Cameron when she said she could not envisage a scenario where Westminster would block another referendum if the SNP included a commitment to hold one in its next Holyrood manifesto and the party won.But the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson, appeared to contradict David Cameron when she said she could not envisage a scenario where Westminster would block another referendum if the SNP included a commitment to hold one in its next Holyrood manifesto and the party won.
In an interview with the UK parliament’s The House magazine, the prime minister was pressed on the same question and replied: “That issue is settled.”In an interview with the UK parliament’s The House magazine, the prime minister was pressed on the same question and replied: “That issue is settled.”
But Davidson said: “I do not see an area where if the circumstances arose again that we would [block it]. However, we would feel a betrayal very deeply when we were promised time after time by Nicola, by John Swinney, by all her MSPs, MPs, MEPs and councillors that this was ‘once in a generation’ and we were told by the end of the campaign it was ‘once in a lifetime’.” But Davidson said: “I do not see an area where, if the circumstances arose again, that we would [block it]. However, we would feel a betrayal very deeply when we were promised time after time by Nicola, by John Swinney, by all her MSPs, MPs, MEPs and councillors that this was ‘once in a generation’ and we were told by the end of the campaign it was ‘once in a lifetime’.”
Jim Murphy joked that Sturgeon had gone from leader of the yes campaign to head of the “maybes ayes, maybes naws” campaign. “I’m looking forward to seeing that on a badge.”Jim Murphy joked that Sturgeon had gone from leader of the yes campaign to head of the “maybes ayes, maybes naws” campaign. “I’m looking forward to seeing that on a badge.”
Murphy warned her: “This election we’re having is not a rerun of the referendum,” adding: “Any vote for the SNP increases the chances of a Tory government.”Murphy warned her: “This election we’re having is not a rerun of the referendum,” adding: “Any vote for the SNP increases the chances of a Tory government.”
In a revealing exchange on the SNP’s position on full fiscal autonomy, under close questioning from Murphy, Sturgeon said that she wanted it “as quickly as the other parties agree to give it” and that SNP MPs would vote for it in the next Westminster parliament.
Highlighting this commitment, Murphy said: “The most important thing Nicola has said tonight is that SNP MPs would next year vote for full fiscal autonomy. Nicola’s financial advisers have said it will leave a black hole, business leaders say it will leave a black hole, most importantly trade unions say it will leave a black hole. I won’t be voting for it because I want to keep to the Barnett formula.”
The Liberal Democrat leader, Willie Rennie, was applauded when he added: “What Nicola needs to accept is that she lost the referendum last year.”
Discussing the renewal of Trident, Sturgeon repeated that this would be a red line for her party in Westminster. “We will vote against the renewal of the Trident nuclear system. There are no circumstances in which SNP MPs will vote for Trident.”Discussing the renewal of Trident, Sturgeon repeated that this would be a red line for her party in Westminster. “We will vote against the renewal of the Trident nuclear system. There are no circumstances in which SNP MPs will vote for Trident.”
During a discussion about welfare policy, Sturgeon accused the Scottish Labour leader of “shamefully using vulnerable people to make a political point” when Murphy challenged the Scottish government’s “humiliating” policy of giving out vouchers from its welfare fund. Related: Can Labour and the SNP work together for the good of all in Britain? | Letters
During a very heated discussion about welfare policy, Sturgeon accused the Scottish Labour leader of “shamefully using vulnerable people to make a political point” when Murphy challenged the Scottish government’s “humiliating” policy of giving out vouchers from its welfare fund.
Sturgeon shouted: “Rubbish” and charged Labour with standing in the way of devolving welfare powers to the Scottish parliament, saying: “I don’t want to live in a Scotland where we have to set up a welfare fund to mitigate Tory cuts.”Sturgeon shouted: “Rubbish” and charged Labour with standing in the way of devolving welfare powers to the Scottish parliament, saying: “I don’t want to live in a Scotland where we have to set up a welfare fund to mitigate Tory cuts.”
Wednesday night’s debate, hosted by the BBC, also included the Scottish Green leader, Patrick Harvie, and Ukip’s only MEP, David Coburn.Wednesday night’s debate, hosted by the BBC, also included the Scottish Green leader, Patrick Harvie, and Ukip’s only MEP, David Coburn.
Coburn appeared uncomfortable, frequently garbling his words and drawing derisive laughter from the audience.Coburn appeared uncomfortable, frequently garbling his words and drawing derisive laughter from the audience.
After Ed Miliband was criticised for his failure to confront the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, in last Thursday’s debate, Murphy dismissed Coburn’s presence early in the debate, saying that it was a “waste of a conversation about the future of Scotland if we allow the debate to be dominated by Ukip”.After Ed Miliband was criticised for his failure to confront the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, in last Thursday’s debate, Murphy dismissed Coburn’s presence early in the debate, saying that it was a “waste of a conversation about the future of Scotland if we allow the debate to be dominated by Ukip”.