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Version 1 Version 2
Q&A returns after Zaky Mallah controversy – live Q&A returns after Zaky Mallah controversy – live
(35 minutes later)
10.24pm AEST13:24
Question 5: can science and religion be compatible?
OK, this really is nothing to do with the ABC. (Let’s see where the answers go, mind.)
The questioner is a Catholic and a would-be cosmologist.
Lawrence Krauss, already a cosmologist, says scientists can believe in god if they like – it doesn’t really matter. It’s not incompatible with science. But the doctrines of organised religion are incompatible with science.
10.21pm AEST13:21
Paul Kelly is more understanding: sometimes politicians have to lie. There’s a difference between personal and political morality. Shorten should have lied better, he seems to be saying: he should not have been caught out. That will count against him down the line.
Surely it’s a qualification for politicians to be able to lie, Anne Aly asks.
Updated at 10.22pm AEST
10.20pm AEST13:20
Question 4: the Killing Season
Time for a different topic and it’s the hot seat for Plibersek as the audience member wants to know more about the Killing Season - specifically, Bill Shorten’s admission that he made “a mistake” in 2013 when he emphatically dismissed leadership talk just days after meeting with Kevin Rudd to discuss replacing Julia Gillard as prime minister.
Plibersek dodges the question of whether she ought to replace Shorten as Labor leader.
She says lying is never acceptable, but she understands why Shorten did what he did under the circumstances.
10.16pm AEST13:16
Paul Kelly thinks the conversation needs to go back to the ABC, which has not apologised enough for his liking. The managing director and the board need to realise this, he says; lots of people feel this way.
He says he likes the ABC, though.
10.14pm AEST13:14
Question 3 is about (de)radicalisation
Anne Aly – who actually knows about this stuff; she’s a a research fellow at Curtin University, Perth, working on radicalisation, counter-terrorism and countering violent extremism – says the group she works with had reached out to Mallah because voices of former extremists are useful for deradicalisation.
He’s said some shitty stuff … He’s not media savvy and he’s not politically savvy. But he could be a really good voice and a really powerful voice.
10.11pm AEST13:11
Debate now over what is “the Muslim community” and whether Mallah was speaking – or pretending to speak – for it last week.
There is no leader of “the Muslim community”, Aly points out, reasonably.
Krauss is exasperated now (not with Aly, but Kelly and Wilson are feeling a bit of scorn here). Mallah didn’t claim to be speaking for anyone other than himself, he says, and he got an “idiotic answer” from Ciobo.
10.09pm AEST13:09
Everyone is shouting over each other now and the audience is applauding, but which shout they’re appreciating, who knows?
Tony Jones restores order. The point of this program is to allow citizens to ask questions, he says.
Tim Wilson says no. Mallah shouldn’t have had a platform. If Wilson had a gavel, he might slam it down at this point.
10.08pm AEST13:08
Plibersek says the government needs to put forward proper policies to parliament, not “thought bubbles”.
10.05pm AEST13:05
Tanya Plibersek says security is the first responsibility of a government.
But people need to be able to disagree with government policies and to question them without being labelled as not being on Team Australia.
10.02pm AEST13:02
Paul Kelly repeats: he doesn’t think this is a free speech issue. This was a set-up, designed to embarrass a politician and, by extension, the government.
(One can only assume that if the point was to rile the Abbott government, it worked pretty well. Maybe too well …)
10.00pm AEST13:00
Aly says she knows Zaky Mallah; she works with a lot of what she calls “formers” (former radicals/extremists).
Some are very eloquent, she says:
Zaky isn’t there yet.
He needs more support, Aly adds.
9.59pm AEST12:59
When you restrict civil liberties, you are playing into extremists’ hands, Anne Aly argues.
Isis wants recruits to reject their Australian identities and burn their passports:
Why are doing that for them? … It’s not only counterproductive, it’s futile.
9.57pm AEST12:57
Lawrence Krauss says it’s the rhetoric around national security, and not the few people involved in extremism, that is frightening people.
It wins him a round of applause, which I think might be the first one of the evening. (Sorry if I missed some; feel free to add your own claps and cheers in the comments below.)
9.55pm AEST12:55
Question 2: where do you draw the line between free speech and national security?
Tim Wilson is back up again. He concedes that “probably no one” has joined Isis as a result of Mallah’s comments. People wouldn’t take him seriously because he’s “a bit of a nutter”.
But appearing on ABC gave Mallah credibility, Wilson argues.
9.53pm AEST12:53
Wilson is fired up now. He says attempts to compare the treatment of the ABC with Charlie Hebdo mocked the memory of those who died.
9.52pm AEST12:52
Tim Wilson isn’t buying that. Mallah should not have been given a platform on live TV, he says.
Wilson says that Ciobo’s comment that he’d like to see Mallah deported from the country wasn’t an attempt to silence or censor him.
Some of the audience members seem to find that point quite funny.
9.51pm AEST12:51
So Mallah was good enough for your paper, but not good enough for Q&A, Anne Aly asks Paul Kelly.
Aly says it was the government reaction, and not the Q&A appearance itself, that blew this story into a huge row.
Lawrence Krauss weighs in: the government has done a pretty good job of embarrassing itself on this issue, he says.
Krauss says he has debated Fred Nile on Q&A and – despite Nile’s anti-gay views – it was a worthwhile discussion.
9.49pm AEST12:499.49pm AEST12:49
Tony Jones points out to Paul Kelly that an interview with Mallah appeared in his own newspaper, the Australian.Tony Jones points out to Paul Kelly that an interview with Mallah appeared in his own newspaper, the Australian.
Kelly says an effective way of preventing people from joining jihad is to use people who had previously been radical. That’s not why Mallah was on the show:Kelly says an effective way of preventing people from joining jihad is to use people who had previously been radical. That’s not why Mallah was on the show:
This was a tabloid gotcha moment.This was a tabloid gotcha moment.
He says Mallah was picked for the show purely to embarrass the government.He says Mallah was picked for the show purely to embarrass the government.
9.47pm AEST12:479.47pm AEST12:47
Now to Paul Kelly.Now to Paul Kelly.
He says this is not an issue of free speech. Q&A could have had “other Muslims” in the audience to ask similar questions, he says.He says this is not an issue of free speech. Q&A could have had “other Muslims” in the audience to ask similar questions, he says.
He says the ABC line that knowledge of the misogynist tweet would have ruled Mallah out of appearing the show is astonishing, given what is known about the terrorist-related charges that were laid against him (he was acquitted of those charges in 2005, although pleaded guilty to others).He says the ABC line that knowledge of the misogynist tweet would have ruled Mallah out of appearing the show is astonishing, given what is known about the terrorist-related charges that were laid against him (he was acquitted of those charges in 2005, although pleaded guilty to others).
9.45pm AEST12:459.45pm AEST12:45
Mallah has served his time in prison, Aly says. We need to give people a second chance.Mallah has served his time in prison, Aly says. We need to give people a second chance.
9.45pm AEST12:459.45pm AEST12:45
Anne Aly goes next.Anne Aly goes next.
She says the Australian public deserves to hear a rational debate and this opportunity has been missed – it needs to take place without “political grandstanding”.She says the Australian public deserves to hear a rational debate and this opportunity has been missed – it needs to take place without “political grandstanding”.
Aly implicitly criticises the reaction of MP Steve Ciobo to Mallah on last week’s show – “We deserve to have the answers to these questions free from political point-scoring.”Aly implicitly criticises the reaction of MP Steve Ciobo to Mallah on last week’s show – “We deserve to have the answers to these questions free from political point-scoring.”
9.43pm AEST12:439.43pm AEST12:43
Question 1: were Zaky Mallah's views worthwhile?Question 1: were Zaky Mallah's views worthwhile?
Tanya Plibersek gets to answer first.Tanya Plibersek gets to answer first.
She says Mallah’s tweet about two female journalists was very offensive.She says Mallah’s tweet about two female journalists was very offensive.
But she says the reaction to his appearance over the last week has been too emotional.But she says the reaction to his appearance over the last week has been too emotional.
She thinks the ABC plays an important role in society and she cautions that further attacks on the broadcaster, amid a culture of cuts, are not helpful.She thinks the ABC plays an important role in society and she cautions that further attacks on the broadcaster, amid a culture of cuts, are not helpful.
It is important to take into account we are in a heightened threatened environment, she says. When you are airing arguments that are calling for extremist views, you need to be careful.It is important to take into account we are in a heightened threatened environment, she says. When you are airing arguments that are calling for extremist views, you need to be careful.
9.40pm AEST12:409.40pm AEST12:40
We find ourselves in an unusual situation tonight, says host Tony Jones.We find ourselves in an unusual situation tonight, says host Tony Jones.
The show itself has been the subject of one of the week’s biggest stories and it will come up for discussion tonight, he says.The show itself has been the subject of one of the week’s biggest stories and it will come up for discussion tonight, he says.
My role tonight is not to put any view, Jones says, but he wants to put some facts on the record.My role tonight is not to put any view, Jones says, but he wants to put some facts on the record.
The decision to allow Zaky Mallah to ask a question fits with the show’s remit to show a wide range of views.The decision to allow Zaky Mallah to ask a question fits with the show’s remit to show a wide range of views.
But the Q&A team was not aware of Mallah’s misogynistic tweet and had it known, he would not have been allowed to appear.But the Q&A team was not aware of Mallah’s misogynistic tweet and had it known, he would not have been allowed to appear.
9.38pm AEST12:389.38pm AEST12:38
And we're offAnd we're off
A reminder of the panellists tonight:A reminder of the panellists tonight:
And the two who won’t be appearing:And the two who won’t be appearing:
9.36pm AEST12:369.36pm AEST12:36
ABC’s managing director Mark Scott has tweeted his support for the program tonight:ABC’s managing director Mark Scott has tweeted his support for the program tonight:
Good luck to the #qanda team tonight - after a week of enormous pressure and scrutiny. 9.35pm. Streaming on #iview http://t.co/D7SwZM9TR1Good luck to the #qanda team tonight - after a week of enormous pressure and scrutiny. 9.35pm. Streaming on #iview http://t.co/D7SwZM9TR1
And Leigh Sales, host of ABC’s 7.30, says it’s business as usual:And Leigh Sales, host of ABC’s 7.30, says it’s business as usual:
Tiny bit of extra security at the ABC and a couple of photographers outside but otherwise looks like business as usual at #qandaTiny bit of extra security at the ABC and a couple of photographers outside but otherwise looks like business as usual at #qanda
9.32pm AEST12:329.32pm AEST12:32
Media Watch, nipping in on the ABC ahead of Q&A, is also pondering the Mallah row.Media Watch, nipping in on the ABC ahead of Q&A, is also pondering the Mallah row.
Condemnation came from “all the usual suspects”, says host Paul Barry.Condemnation came from “all the usual suspects”, says host Paul Barry.
(He also calls Mallah a “hothead Muslim thug”, in case you were wondering which side he was on.)(He also calls Mallah a “hothead Muslim thug”, in case you were wondering which side he was on.)
Addressing the inclusion of Mallah on the live program, Barry concludes: “Given his background, we agree that was a mistake” (Interesting use of “we”) – before pointing out the litany of TV appearances on non-ABC channels that Mallah has made without government reviews.Addressing the inclusion of Mallah on the live program, Barry concludes: “Given his background, we agree that was a mistake” (Interesting use of “we”) – before pointing out the litany of TV appearances on non-ABC channels that Mallah has made without government reviews.
ABC did not know of Mallah’s “repulsive” views on women before he appeared on the show, Barry says. But the show was not about rape, he goes on, but about terror. Was Mallah not a relevant guest in that instance?ABC did not know of Mallah’s “repulsive” views on women before he appeared on the show, Barry says. But the show was not about rape, he goes on, but about terror. Was Mallah not a relevant guest in that instance?
After all, Australian former Guantánamo Bay prisoner David Hicks – in a pre-recorded question – was allowed to quiz then prime minister John Howard on Q&A in 2010.After all, Australian former Guantánamo Bay prisoner David Hicks – in a pre-recorded question – was allowed to quiz then prime minister John Howard on Q&A in 2010.
9.25pm AEST12:259.25pm AEST12:25
An Abbott government backbencher has spoken out against the “petulant” idea of a blanket boycott of Q&A, my colleague Daniel Hurst reports.An Abbott government backbencher has spoken out against the “petulant” idea of a blanket boycott of Q&A, my colleague Daniel Hurst reports.
Some Coalition MPs have suggested a blanket boycott of Q&A appearances and others called for the program to be suspended or its executive producer be fired.Some Coalition MPs have suggested a blanket boycott of Q&A appearances and others called for the program to be suspended or its executive producer be fired.
But Queensland Liberal National party MP Ewen Jones said the government and the media had spent too long talking about the Mallah controversy.But Queensland Liberal National party MP Ewen Jones said the government and the media had spent too long talking about the Mallah controversy.
“Q&A made a grave error, but only the impotent are pure,” Jones told Guardian Australia.“Q&A made a grave error, but only the impotent are pure,” Jones told Guardian Australia.
“If we’re going to do this groupthink [a blanket ban] I think it would smack of petulance.”“If we’re going to do this groupthink [a blanket ban] I think it would smack of petulance.”
9.20pm AEST12:209.20pm AEST12:20
Why did Alan Tudge and Nick Cater pull out of tonight’s show?Why did Alan Tudge and Nick Cater pull out of tonight’s show?
Both blamed the failure of the ABC to take proper responsibility for the decision to invite Zaky Mallah into the Q&A audience.Both blamed the failure of the ABC to take proper responsibility for the decision to invite Zaky Mallah into the Q&A audience.
Tudge wrote on Monday:Tudge wrote on Monday:
I am concerned my participation could be construed as suggesting the prime minister and government are not taking the matters from last week incredibly seriously. We are …I am concerned my participation could be construed as suggesting the prime minister and government are not taking the matters from last week incredibly seriously. We are …
When given the microphone on Q&A [Mallah] used it to his advantage, providing a chilling justification for terrorists that came perilously close to incitement.When given the microphone on Q&A [Mallah] used it to his advantage, providing a chilling justification for terrorists that came perilously close to incitement.
Citing both Mallah’s alleged extremist views and his comments about women, Tudge pointed a finger at ABC managing director Mark Scott:Citing both Mallah’s alleged extremist views and his comments about women, Tudge pointed a finger at ABC managing director Mark Scott:
This is not a matter of free speech, as Scott pretends.This is not a matter of free speech, as Scott pretends.
Free speech means a person is legally allowed to express views. It does not mean that those views must be magnified with taxpayer assistance.Free speech means a person is legally allowed to express views. It does not mean that those views must be magnified with taxpayer assistance.
If you advocate rape, you should be disqualified from being given a platform. No ifs, no buts. #qandaIf you advocate rape, you should be disqualified from being given a platform. No ifs, no buts. #qanda
Cater echoed those thoughts:Cater echoed those thoughts:
Given that the ABC has failed to apologise unequivocally for giving an open microphone to a convicted criminal and terrorist sympathiser on last week’s Q&A, I will no longer be participating in tonight’s program.Given that the ABC has failed to apologise unequivocally for giving an open microphone to a convicted criminal and terrorist sympathiser on last week’s Q&A, I will no longer be participating in tonight’s program.
Tim Wilson, who will be on the panel tonight (at least at time of writing), said that if he were a private citizen he would also have withdrawn from the show:Tim Wilson, who will be on the panel tonight (at least at time of writing), said that if he were a private citizen he would also have withdrawn from the show:
But as an independent statutory officer, I feel obliged to present and explain what free speech actually is.But as an independent statutory officer, I feel obliged to present and explain what free speech actually is.
9.14pm AEST12:149.14pm AEST12:14
Abbott v ABCAbbott v ABC
The row unfolded with quite startling speed and heat.The row unfolded with quite startling speed and heat.
By Tuesday morning, ABC was already uncomfortable enough to put out a statement saying the decision to invite Mallah into the audience had been an “error in judgment”.By Tuesday morning, ABC was already uncomfortable enough to put out a statement saying the decision to invite Mallah into the audience had been an “error in judgment”.
Richard Finlayson, the director of ABC television, said there would be a review.Richard Finlayson, the director of ABC television, said there would be a review.
Prime minister Tony Abbott then took the row up a notch by claiming Q&A was a “lefty lynch mob”. He went on:Prime minister Tony Abbott then took the row up a notch by claiming Q&A was a “lefty lynch mob”. He went on:
They’ve given this disgraceful individual a platform and in so doing I believe the national broadcaster has badly let us down …They’ve given this disgraceful individual a platform and in so doing I believe the national broadcaster has badly let us down …
I do think the ABC needs to have a long hard look at itself, and answer a question I’ve posed before: whose side are you on?I do think the ABC needs to have a long hard look at itself, and answer a question I’ve posed before: whose side are you on?
Communications minister Malcolm Turnbull questioned the ABC’s security measures and suggested it consult federal police about how to vet the audience.Communications minister Malcolm Turnbull questioned the ABC’s security measures and suggested it consult federal police about how to vet the audience.
An external review of Q&A, Turnbull said, “will look at a full gamut of issues relating to Q&A – the audience composition, choice of topic, choice of guest, objectivity and balance”.An external review of Q&A, Turnbull said, “will look at a full gamut of issues relating to Q&A – the audience composition, choice of topic, choice of guest, objectivity and balance”.
A few more notches were added later in the week when Abbott declared that “heads should roll” at ABC and ordered a further, government-led review – a move the Greens said had taken the row “to hysterical levels of stridency”.A few more notches were added later in the week when Abbott declared that “heads should roll” at ABC and ordered a further, government-led review – a move the Greens said had taken the row “to hysterical levels of stridency”.
That government review should land on Turnbull’s desk tomorrow.That government review should land on Turnbull’s desk tomorrow.
In response, ABC managing director Mark Scott said:In response, ABC managing director Mark Scott said:
I hope no one seriously wants the ABC to be a state broadcaster …I hope no one seriously wants the ABC to be a state broadcaster …
A question was posed this week: whose side is the ABC on? The ABC is clearly Australian, it’s on the side of Australia.A question was posed this week: whose side is the ABC on? The ABC is clearly Australian, it’s on the side of Australia.
(And that’s without touching on the media reaction. Judge for yourself whose side these are on.)(And that’s without touching on the media reaction. Judge for yourself whose side these are on.)
9.12pm AEST12:129.12pm AEST12:12
Who is Zaky Mallah?Who is Zaky Mallah?
Zaky Mallah has been convicted and served a jail sentence for making death threats against Asio officials. He has also tweeted that two female journalists should be publicly raped.Zaky Mallah has been convicted and served a jail sentence for making death threats against Asio officials. He has also tweeted that two female journalists should be publicly raped.
But the controversy around his appearance on Q&A centres on his alleged ties to terrorism and Islamic extremism. Tony Abbott labelled him a “convicted criminal and terrorist sympathiser”.But the controversy around his appearance on Q&A centres on his alleged ties to terrorism and Islamic extremism. Tony Abbott labelled him a “convicted criminal and terrorist sympathiser”.
Mallah was charged with terrorism offences in 2003. He was acquitted of those charges in 2005, but pleaded guilty to threatening to kill Asio officials.Mallah was charged with terrorism offences in 2003. He was acquitted of those charges in 2005, but pleaded guilty to threatening to kill Asio officials.
Writing for Guardian Australia after his Q&A appearance, Mallah denied he was a threat, and insisted:Writing for Guardian Australia after his Q&A appearance, Mallah denied he was a threat, and insisted:
For the record: I am not a supporter of Isis. I hate Isis.For the record: I am not a supporter of Isis. I hate Isis.
9.02pm AEST12:029.02pm AEST12:02
Read this firstRead this first
Claire PhippsClaire Phipps
It’s not every week that viewers need to read themselves in before an episode of Q&A. But this is that week.It’s not every week that viewers need to read themselves in before an episode of Q&A. But this is that week.
First we were expecting six panellists on this evening’s show:First we were expecting six panellists on this evening’s show:
Earlier today, though, Tudge and Cater decided they wouldn’t be appearing after all.Earlier today, though, Tudge and Cater decided they wouldn’t be appearing after all.
The reason is last week’s episode, and the row that followed it. You’re reading a Q&A live blog, so I’m going to assume you know the basics. Here’s the exchange on last week’s program between MP Steve Ciobo and former terrorism suspect Zaky Mallah:The reason is last week’s episode, and the row that followed it. You’re reading a Q&A live blog, so I’m going to assume you know the basics. Here’s the exchange on last week’s program between MP Steve Ciobo and former terrorism suspect Zaky Mallah:
From the live studio audience, Mallah asked Ciobo, in a pre-approved question:From the live studio audience, Mallah asked Ciobo, in a pre-approved question:
As the first man in Australia to be charged with terrorism under the harsh Liberal Howard government in 2003 … what would have happened if my case had been decided by the minister himself and not the courts?As the first man in Australia to be charged with terrorism under the harsh Liberal Howard government in 2003 … what would have happened if my case had been decided by the minister himself and not the courts?
Ciobo said he would be happy to see him leave the country, prompting Mallah to a second bite:Ciobo said he would be happy to see him leave the country, prompting Mallah to a second bite:
The Liberals have just justified to many Australian Muslims in the community tonight to leave and go to Syria and join Isil because of ministers like him.The Liberals have just justified to many Australian Muslims in the community tonight to leave and go to Syria and join Isil because of ministers like him.
Q&A’s host, Tony Jones, stepped in, telling Mallah:Q&A’s host, Tony Jones, stepped in, telling Mallah:
I think that’s a comment we’re just going to rule totally out of order.I think that’s a comment we’re just going to rule totally out of order.
And then the questions really started.And then the questions really started.
Jones will be hosting again tonight; a new panel member, Paul Kelly, editor at large of the Australian, has been drafted in.Jones will be hosting again tonight; a new panel member, Paul Kelly, editor at large of the Australian, has been drafted in.
The show starts at 9.35pm AEST and I’ll be covering it live right here. Do join in the comments below or tweet me @Claire_Phipps with thoughts, quips and fact-checks.The show starts at 9.35pm AEST and I’ll be covering it live right here. Do join in the comments below or tweet me @Claire_Phipps with thoughts, quips and fact-checks.