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Commissioner questions Bill Shorten's credibility at royal commission – as it happened Commissioner questions Bill Shorten's credibility at royal commission – as it happened
(1 day later)
7.47am BST7.47am BST
07:4707:47
So long, farewell, for nowSo long, farewell, for now
That’s about enough I believe.That’s about enough I believe.
Let’s summarise the developments of the past two days as best we can.Let’s summarise the developments of the past two days as best we can.
So, that was Shorten at #turc and it may not be over yet.So, that was Shorten at #turc and it may not be over yet.
It is, however, over for now.It is, however, over for now.
Thanks so much for your company. See you again soon.Thanks so much for your company. See you again soon.
7.24am BST7.24am BST
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While Shorten’s remarks about Commissioner Heydon pointed to a critique but stepped around the point, Shorten’s Victorian Labor colleague Brendan O’Connor carried the heavy freight, as he’s been doing for several days on the royal commission.While Shorten’s remarks about Commissioner Heydon pointed to a critique but stepped around the point, Shorten’s Victorian Labor colleague Brendan O’Connor carried the heavy freight, as he’s been doing for several days on the royal commission.
Shorten cooperative inside – commentary outside.Shorten cooperative inside – commentary outside.
Brendan O’Connor, from earlier today:Brendan O’Connor, from earlier today:
It was quite remarkable that the commissioner chose to intervene and start giving gratuitous advice to Mr Shorten about the way in which he should handle questions and then make some prejudicial comments about him saying how he was not helping his case. You would never see a judge say that in a court of law in the way it was said today by the royal commissioner.It was quite remarkable that the commissioner chose to intervene and start giving gratuitous advice to Mr Shorten about the way in which he should handle questions and then make some prejudicial comments about him saying how he was not helping his case. You would never see a judge say that in a court of law in the way it was said today by the royal commissioner.
So whether or not he is a retired judge, the way he is conducting himself shows you the distinction between a court of law, with procedural fairness, where cross-examination is a right not a discretion of the commission. Where hearsay is not admissible in a court of law but is admissible in a royal commission.So whether or not he is a retired judge, the way he is conducting himself shows you the distinction between a court of law, with procedural fairness, where cross-examination is a right not a discretion of the commission. Where hearsay is not admissible in a court of law but is admissible in a royal commission.
These are the fundamental differences. And I think the public are becoming aware that this is not a court of law. This is an executive inquiry set up and run by Tony Abbott and paid for taxpayers’ of Australia.These are the fundamental differences. And I think the public are becoming aware that this is not a court of law. This is an executive inquiry set up and run by Tony Abbott and paid for taxpayers’ of Australia.
7.19am BST7.19am BST
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Here’s a quick video grab.Here’s a quick video grab.
No evidence demonstrated of any conflicts.No evidence demonstrated of any conflicts.
Every day I was union rep I was standing up for our members.Every day I was union rep I was standing up for our members.
Bill Shorten answers questions from the media after facing the royal commission into union corruption #turc http://t.co/C9mILTAGFBBill Shorten answers questions from the media after facing the royal commission into union corruption #turc http://t.co/C9mILTAGFB
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The Labor leader @billshortenmp says he's put forward the case for party & union at #turc @TURoyalComm pic.twitter.com/vlyX2ezgjMThe Labor leader @billshortenmp says he's put forward the case for party & union at #turc @TURoyalComm pic.twitter.com/vlyX2ezgjM
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Shorten told reporters despite Mr Heydon’s job to do (the inference is a job for Tony Abbott and the government which set up the inquiry), he was there to cooperate with the proceedings. He said he’s happy to put his record against Tony Abbott’s when it comes to defending the interests of workers.Shorten told reporters despite Mr Heydon’s job to do (the inference is a job for Tony Abbott and the government which set up the inquiry), he was there to cooperate with the proceedings. He said he’s happy to put his record against Tony Abbott’s when it comes to defending the interests of workers.
7.12am BST7.12am BST
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Mr Heydon's got a job to do, I think we all understand thatMr Heydon's got a job to do, I think we all understand that
Bill Shorten is telling reporters he said before the appearance he relished the opportunity to put his view to the commission. He said he answered all the questions put to him, hundreds of them.Bill Shorten is telling reporters he said before the appearance he relished the opportunity to put his view to the commission. He said he answered all the questions put to him, hundreds of them.
I answered questions until the commission ended today, earlier than expected.I answered questions until the commission ended today, earlier than expected.
Shorten says the hearings produced no evidence of any conflict of interest.Shorten says the hearings produced no evidence of any conflict of interest.
Shorten was asked about the disposition of the commissioner, Dyson Heydon.Shorten was asked about the disposition of the commissioner, Dyson Heydon.
Mr Heydon’s got a job to do, I think we all understand that.Mr Heydon’s got a job to do, I think we all understand that.
UpdatedUpdated
at 7.13am BSTat 7.13am BST
7.07am BST7.07am BST
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The Labor leader is coming up very shortly now. Stay strong, #turc(s)The Labor leader is coming up very shortly now. Stay strong, #turc(s)
UpdatedUpdated
at 7.07am BSTat 7.07am BST
6.32am BST6.32am BST
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Waiting for Bill.Waiting for Bill.
pic.twitter.com/0JdL3Ztex2pic.twitter.com/0JdL3Ztex2
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So that’s it for Shorten for now.So that’s it for Shorten for now.
I’ll remain live to see whether or not the Labor leader speaks to reporters on the way out – and of course, I’ll wrap properly now we are through the two days of evidence.I’ll remain live to see whether or not the Labor leader speaks to reporters on the way out – and of course, I’ll wrap properly now we are through the two days of evidence.
5.58am BST5.58am BST
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Daniel HurstDaniel Hurst
Returning after the adjournment, Shorten’s lawyers advised the commission they would no longer maintain the earlier request for confidentiality. Counsel Allan Myers said the person in the earlier document “has been contacted and she has said she no longer wants her name to be kept a secret”.Returning after the adjournment, Shorten’s lawyers advised the commission they would no longer maintain the earlier request for confidentiality. Counsel Allan Myers said the person in the earlier document “has been contacted and she has said she no longer wants her name to be kept a secret”.
The commissioner noted that Shorten “deserves congratulations for his good sense both yesterday and today on this matter” [the request for confidentiality].The commissioner noted that Shorten “deserves congratulations for his good sense both yesterday and today on this matter” [the request for confidentiality].
The commissioner rescinded the confidentiality orders made for those two names.The commissioner rescinded the confidentiality orders made for those two names.
Commisioner Heydon:Commisioner Heydon:
Mr Shorten, thank you for attending over these two days. I do appreciate what an extreme inconvenience it is to you … You may or may not have to come back and every effort will be made to accommodate the least inconvenient possible time for you in view of your responsibilities.Mr Shorten, thank you for attending over these two days. I do appreciate what an extreme inconvenience it is to you … You may or may not have to come back and every effort will be made to accommodate the least inconvenient possible time for you in view of your responsibilities.
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There’s been a short discussion about whether a desire by Shorten to have some people’s names kept out of the commission will stand given journalists are pursuing the identity of these people and one person has already been named in evidence. A court judgment is invoked as part of the commissioner’s deliberations.There’s been a short discussion about whether a desire by Shorten to have some people’s names kept out of the commission will stand given journalists are pursuing the identity of these people and one person has already been named in evidence. A court judgment is invoked as part of the commissioner’s deliberations.
Shorten’s counsel fears a mountain is being made out of a molehill. He will need to take instructions from his client. The commission is having a short adjournment.Shorten’s counsel fears a mountain is being made out of a molehill. He will need to take instructions from his client. The commission is having a short adjournment.
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Rather abruptly, Stoljar pulls up stumps.Rather abruptly, Stoljar pulls up stumps.
Commissioner Heydon offers Shorten’s counsel a chance to re-examine his client. That offer is declined, for now at least. Shorten’s counsel says he will seek the opportunity if other people are given leave to cross examination him at the commission.Commissioner Heydon offers Shorten’s counsel a chance to re-examine his client. That offer is declined, for now at least. Shorten’s counsel says he will seek the opportunity if other people are given leave to cross examination him at the commission.
Commissioner Heydon:Commissioner Heydon:
Of course there is one other possibility and that is that some other material comes to light, which may make a desire for Mr Shorten to address it – but the future is quite unclear on both of those.Of course there is one other possibility and that is that some other material comes to light, which may make a desire for Mr Shorten to address it – but the future is quite unclear on both of those.
Very well.Very well.
5.40am BST5.40am BST
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Stoljar has tracked back to Cleanevent now. We were in this territory yesterday. The commission is concerned to learn how an agreement covering Cleanevent passed the no-disadvantage test given it seemed to pay casuals below award rates.Stoljar has tracked back to Cleanevent now. We were in this territory yesterday. The commission is concerned to learn how an agreement covering Cleanevent passed the no-disadvantage test given it seemed to pay casuals below award rates.
5.38am BST
05:38
Daniel Hurst
The commission was just examining an arrangement between the AWU and Huntsman Chemical Company in which a former Huntsman employee (and AWU delegate) facing retrenchment went to work for the union. The 2003 agreement between the AWU and Huntsman Chemical Company noted: “The AWU agree to provide, and Huntsman agree to accept, the services of Alan Bugg within the Human Resources/Training Department of Huntsman, on the terms set out in the agreement.” The original deal was for 12 months but it was renewed several times.
Shorten said he drafted the arrangement. “I don’t know if he took retrenchment or not. He would have finished up his time at the company. In terms of the work he would have been doing at the union, I saw an opportunity for him to continue working with the union and the workers at Huntsman in a role of helping to develop education and training and best practice and productivity.”
5.34am BST
05:34
Stoljar has been pursuing paid education once again, and the lack of any contractural obligation on the AWU to deliver the services for which it was being paid.
Shorten bristles a bit.
The union keeps its word. We would do paid education if we said we were doing it. We would do training and education of our members.
5.29am BST
05:29
Shorten agrees that if the company stops paying union dues the coverage at the worksite would fall below 100%.
Stoljar has moved on now to a company called Huntsman, and a person called Alan Bugg.
5.24am BST
05:24
Shorten is asked about his view on companies paying union dues. He says he’d prefer people paying their own dues, it tends to create a more engaged membership, but if it comes to being in a union or not, he’ll take membership.
Stoljar asks about evidence from the current AWU secretary Ben Davis. Davis has told the royal commission he won’t let companies pay dues because it weakens the union’s bargaining position.
Q: Do you agree with his proposition?
I’ve read what Mr Davis has said. He reflects my policy priorities from my time that we would rather have people paying their own union dues.
But what profoundly weakens union organising capacity is when people are not in a union at all.
Q: But you accept the proposition, don’t you, that what it makes it very difficult for a union to go hard for the members is when it’s receiving money at the same time from the employer?
Shorten says that isn’t borne out by the evidence.
I support people paying dues themselves, because the more people directly pay for a service the more they engage in the quality of it.
But in a beauty parade, union or non-union, union’s better for my way of thinking.
5.18am BST
05:18
Q: Are you able to say in every case Winslow Constructors employees filled out membership forms?
Shorten:
I would have said so, that was the rule which I set, it was the union policy.
Q: You say that was the rule, you don’t have any way of checking whether that’s the case?
Shorten:
When I took over in 1998 I didn’t believe record keeping was up to scratch.
He says he took steps to improve this by requiring better processes including postal addresses for members.
Stoljar asks how did the process start of Winslow paying AWU membership dues? Shorten says it began before his time. He’s asked whether he knows anything about invoices being drawn up for OH&S services when it was actually union dues. Shorten says anything like that, if it happened, happened after his time.
5.10am BST
05:10
Stoljar is wanting particulars of the membership rolls. Who had detailed knowledge of how AWU membership rolls were maintained in the late 1990s and early 2000s? Shorten writes down two names and hands them across. He says the information isn’t secret but he’s not naming people without their consent.
Shorten:
Not everyone wants to be mentioned in this royal commission.
5.05am BST
05:05
Shorten is back in the witness box and Stoljar has moved on to Winslow Constructors. I presume he will pursue payments Winslow made to the AWU in 2005 and 2006 for membership fees.
4.58am BST
04:58
What we learned this morning
Quick summary before the proceedings resume.
Now, here comes the afternoon.
Stretch necks. Refresh beverages.
4.40am BST
04:40
Day two for Shorten at #turc – some thoughts from me about "moments"
Given the live coverage of the royal commission, there is a tendency for media organisations to frame this event up in moments. What were the key moments?
Judgment and presentation by moment is not unreasonable, it’s a very common structure and convention in reportage of big events, form football finals, to election results – I’m just drawing your attention to that as something of a construct.
Given we have been bogged down in detail for several hours, the moment of the morning was doubtless the commissioner Dyson Heydon expressing a negative view on Shorten’s credibility as a witness. Heydon rebuked Shorten for failing to answer questions directly, a development he considered passing strange given Shorten had sought an early appearance at the commission to clear up various allegations that were being made in newspaper coverage and elsewhere.
If I was a smart alec I’d say Heydon would only have to tune in to one of the Labor leader’s regular press conferences to know that Shorten, like most other professional politicians in Australia, doesn’t generally trade in the currency of straight answers. Politicians tend to trade in formulations, and that was Shorten’s approach to walking around the various hot issues in this morning’s cross examination: provide a formulation, preferably at some length. This is typical of Shorten’s sometimes sludgy communications. But the formulations clearly weighed on Heydon’s patience (as they do on the patience of working journalists).
Obviously, being rebuked pretty sharply by the commissioner isn’t a good look, and Heydon was correct in substance. A number of Shorten’s answers about the Thiess/John Holland deal were entirely non-specific. I can’t remember, instead of yes or no. Shorten also made a reasonable retort, however, when he observed some propositions don’t have simple yes or no answers.
At the end of the day, how bad the commissioner’s rebuke plays for Shorten depends on whether or not the person consuming the moment believes that the royal commission is a fair process for the Labor leader.
If you think this is a quasi judicial process designed to deliver truth and justice, then you’ll be perturbed as a viewer by the Heydon rebuke. You’ll think Shorten has something to hide. If you think the royal commission is an Abbott-government initiated witch hunt then you won’t really care – this morning will only confirm your bias, not shift it.
I’ll post a summary of our collective learnings next.
4.01am BST
04:01
Stoljar is back to conflict of interest. Was Shorten looking after the interests of the workers at Chiquita or the interests of the AWU?
Q: The problem is where you’re negotiating an EBA which contemplates drastic reductions of the numbers of workers and other changes to those workers, do you accept that there is a major conflict of interest when the union at the same time negotiates a secret deal pursuant to which payments will be made to the union?
Shorten doesn’t accept that.
The commission has broken for lunch.
I’ll be back shortly with a summary of what we’ve seen and learned over the morning session.