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Version 1 Version 2
Same-sex marriage debate: Penny Wong v Cory Bernardi – live Same-sex marriage debate: Penny Wong v Cory Bernardi – live
(35 minutes later)
1.14pm AEST04:14
Cory Bernardi is arguing against assumption same sex marriage is inevitable saying there used to be that sentiment about the republic and the emission trading scheme and both did not happen.
I just don’t buy into thing is that just becomes it appears popular it’s the right thing to do for the country.
Penny Wong speaks again on children, the room is really with her, she is getting lots of scattered applause.
We shouldn’t assume as Senator Bernardi is that our children don’t have relationships with role models of both genders which seems to be the assumption or with biological parents.
Wong agrees with Bernardi that same sex marriage is not inevitable, she says reform is never won without fighting for it.
1.11pm AEST04:11
Cory Bernardi is asked to expand on his comment that marriage was not invented.
He explains:
Marriage wasn’t invented because it was never defined. It emerged by the fact that there was a man and a whom joining in a union and generally that union was about procreation, sometimes it was about money, about companionship but this is going back for thousands of years, it was never defined, it has never been sought, just emerged as the way it should be and what the proposal is now is to change those years or centuries of lived experience to turn it into something that it never has been.
1.09pm AEST04:09
Cory Bernardi and Penny Wong now debating about conscience vote in the Liberal party on same sex marriage. Obviously Wong is for and Bernardi is against.
1.07pm AEST04:07
Bernardi oddly denying he ever said same sex marriage could lead to bestiality. Yet here it is in hansard http://t.co/Z0R5zIjTPi
1.06pm AEST04:06
Cory Bernardi is asked why children are such a central part of the same sex marriage debate when same sex couples can already have children and already are.
Bernardi is at pains to point out he does not think same sex partners automatically make bad parents. But:
There is a slight difference though in the sense that a same sex couple can’t produce children alone, they need assistance from a third party. That makes a difference to the relationship for that child in some respects, but I would put to you if a child is loved, i a child is nurtured, developed and supported, that’s all we can really hope for in a child but there is a different role that a father plays and a morer plays, they’re complementary role, they have a different impact in how they engage with their children. I don’t think you can easily dismiss the role of one and you shouldn’t deliberately dismiss it but there are plenty of circumstances where that’s not the case and the children come out perfectly fine and well developed and well balanced. But I just don’t think it’s in society’s interest to deliberately deny those complementary inputs into a child’s development.
1.02pm AEST04:02
Question:
In terms of this issue frequently raised about business owners who have a conscience objection to same-sex marriage potentially facing legal penalties for failing to provide services, is that a real concern those people should have? Would they face potentially legal action if they refused to assist same-sex marriages or weddings?
Wong says she expects the market would sort it out.
I suspect that gay and lesbian couples are unlikely to go to bakers who really don’t like gay and lesbians, so I suspect we’d probably work it out.
Bernardi says it is interesting Wong was quick to rule out supporting polygamous marriages.
That says to me that she’s got a line in the sand as we all do about what marriage should mean and what it should encompass. Some people are in the traditional definition and there are incremental changes that others would want to pursue in that regard. So it’s not about equality for all, it’s only about equality for some, apparently.
12.59pm AEST03:59
Question to Wong:
Would you be willing to support any move to change the definition of marriage to recognise multimember relationships?
Wong:
No.
12.59pm AEST03:59
Now on to plebiscites and whether that would be a good idea.
Bernardi:
Maybe if people are not satisfied with the parliamentary decision and determination, maybe it should be put to the people and say if a majority of people in a majority of states want this change to happen...but I’m not endorsing that. I think the Parliament should deal with it, but the Parliament has dealt with it.
Wong:
I think the plebiscite idea is a delaying tactic from a Prime Minister who is worried and whose supporters are worried that they might actually be losing the numbers for a cross-party bill and I think we need to be clear about the motivation. A plebiscite would not be binding.
12.56pm AEST03:56
Now to questions. Cory Bernardi is asked if he thinks same sex marriage could lead to bestiality.
He says he did not say that, he said it could lead to same sex marriage being further redefined, perhaps by polygamous marriages.
Now, if we’re going to redefine marriage to include one section of the community that has never been included init before, how can we logically deny others who are going to use the same rights, same words that you can’t choose who you love, we just want our love to be acknowledged and our relationship to be endorsed. It’s a logical argument and it’s been borne true by evidence in the lived experience overseas.
Penny Wong says Hansard has a record of Bernardi saying it would lead to bestiality and she will make a commitment to him today to stand with him in any fight against that (to laughs).
I would make this point, though, in his speech and we see it again to some extent in this response, those who want equality are referred to as the ‘vocal minority’ despite the fact the majority of Australians have indicated support for marriage equality I would say this point, we don’t shout you down, we don’t denigrate your relationships, we don’t suggest your children are somehow compromised, so who are the people hurling insults in this debate?
12.53pm AEST03:53
Cory Bernardi dismisses America and Ireland legalising same sex marriage saying the pro-marriage equality lobby had millions behind them in Ireland and in America it was unelected people that made the decision.
There are many things redefining marriage won’t do, but there are many things that redefining marriage might do and if overseas experience is any guide, it will do. It will lead to calls for further redefinitions using exactly the same arguments of equality made by the same-sex marriage advocates today. It will become a constant background of competing rights between individuals and businesses... I believe there is no need to redefine marriage on the basis of equality. To do so is to live in a dictatorship of representativism where no thing is real, truths are denied if they’re considered inconvenient by the politically correct system.
12.51pm AEST03:51
Cory Bernardi quotes lots of statistics from polling saying Australians support children being raised by a mother and a father and nothing being able to replace a mother’s love.
He talks about the responsibility adults have to children.
I know it’s maybe going to be unpopular in this room and it might be called quaint and old fashioned. It is children who have rights and adults who have responsibilities, but that concept is being turned on its head by the advocates for this cause, because if you grant the right to marry for same-sex couples one can’t deny their right to a family, which immediately impacts the right of a child. Professor Margaret Sommerville wrote it is one matter for children not to know their genetic identity as a result of unintended circumstances. It is quiteanother matter to deliberately destroy children’s links to their biological parents and especially for society to be complicit in this destruction. Now, I can’t and I will not deny that some same-sex couples make much, much parents than some married heterosexual couples, however, it doesn’t change the general principle that the ideal is still a child being raised by their married mother and father.
12.48pm AEST03:48
Cory Bernardi accuses the same sex marriage lobby of propaganda and name calling:
Whilst they also seek to paint those who support the time-honoured traditional definition as offensive, we’ve been called bigots, we’re told we are homephobes or worse and on the name calling, once again it’s simply another well-known propaganda technique designed to silence an alternative voice.
12.46pm AEST03:46
Cory Bernardi takes the stage: marriage is not a right
Bernardi has begun with core conservative and traditional arguments. He talks about the difference between “rights” and “desires”.
These desires are governed and formed by personal belief and self-interest and yet, they’re often presented in the public sphere as a right to correct a perceived wrong. Now ironically in this new culture of rights, we’re often taken into the realm of a contest in deciding whose rights should prevail and the homosexual marriage debate is a clear example of this contest. Marriage is not a right. It was not invented, marriage simply is. Marriage has been reserved as a sacred bond between a man and a woman across times, across cultures and across very different religious beliefs. It is the very foundation of the family and the family is the basic unit of society and thus marriage is a personal relationship with public significance and I believe we’re right to recognise it in our laws.
12.45pm AEST03:45
Penny Wong: Most things won't change
Penny Wong finishes with some laughs by poking at some of the more extreme arguments against same sex marriage and ends with what legalising same sex marriage would mean:
Well, Australians do see the injustice of denying marriage equality. Australians in same-sex relationships experience that injustice every day and if we achieve marriagee quality, most things won’t change. The sun will rise, heterosexual marriages won’t crumble, 3-year-olds will still want more ice-cream than is good for them, but together we will have made a profound change. A statement to lesbian and gay Australians that we belong, that we are accepted, that our relationships matter, too. And it will also be a statement about the Australia we have become - an accepting, diverse and inclusive nation and that friends, is something to which we should aspire.
12.42pm AEST03:42
Penny Wong is now tackling indivdual arguments against same sex marriage:
Australians understand there’s nothing to fear from equality, yet so many in our Government stubbornly cling to discriminatory laws and over time, the arguments against equality have become increasingly irrational. The bogeymen of the slippery slope,or warnings about our relations with Asia simply don’t stack up as reasons to deny equality. And we also see the well-being of our children marshalled to the cause of discrimination. Leave aside for a moment the truth that the quality of parenting is altogether more complex than simple assertions about gender. The reality is this, same-sex couples already have children. Marriage equality will not alter that.
Wong dismisses faith based arguments and says the bill is not seeking churches to marry people of the same gender. She is now getting to the emotional core of why she is fighting for same sex marriage to be legalised:
I would like you to recall that this is more than a theoretical debate, much more. This is a debate about real people. We are your brothers and your sisters, your sons and your daughters, your friends and your fellow Australians, and this is a debate about us. A debate about rights, a debate about intimate and personal relationships, a debate about the people we love. Most of us hope to find the person we want to share our life with, the person we love. Not all of us are lucky enough to do so and not all of us are able to hold onto it. But if we do, and I’m prepared to make that commitment to declare that enduring bond of which Justice Kennedy spoke, surely that ought to be celebrated and not feared.
12.40pm AEST03:40
Wong is speaking on past struggles of other oppressed people such as women and Indigenous people. She notes it is not gay people who are revolutionising marriage, but heterosexuals.
It is precisely because heterosexuals have changed marriage from an economic arrangement to a relationship of love and support that gay and lesbian people are seeking to join it.
Wong talks about the support she has received from different parts of the Australian community in her quest to legalise same sex marriage, noting the congratulatory cards she got on the birth of her children with her female partner.
12.36pm AEST03:3612.36pm AEST03:36
Penny Wong opens quoting a judge from America’s Supreme court decision last month which legalises same sex marriage across the country. She compares it to interracial couples being prevented from marrying a few decades ago and the restrictions upon them.Penny Wong opens quoting a judge from America’s Supreme court decision last month which legalises same sex marriage across the country. She compares it to interracial couples being prevented from marrying a few decades ago and the restrictions upon them.
In Australia today, two citizens who love each other and who wish to make a public declaration of their mutual and exclusive commitment through the ceremony of marriage are prohibited from doing so, solely on the basis of their gender. No other attribute, no other disqualification, simply because they are of the same gender. If the disqualifying attribute were race, age or religion, such a proposition would be rightly seen as bizarre. But it remains our law in respect of same-sex marriage.In Australia today, two citizens who love each other and who wish to make a public declaration of their mutual and exclusive commitment through the ceremony of marriage are prohibited from doing so, solely on the basis of their gender. No other attribute, no other disqualification, simply because they are of the same gender. If the disqualifying attribute were race, age or religion, such a proposition would be rightly seen as bizarre. But it remains our law in respect of same-sex marriage.
12.34pm AEST03:3412.34pm AEST03:34
Steve Lewis is chairing the same sex marriage debate. He opens with countries such as Ireland and America recently legalising same sex marriage nationally, but notes Australia is not there yet.Steve Lewis is chairing the same sex marriage debate. He opens with countries such as Ireland and America recently legalising same sex marriage nationally, but notes Australia is not there yet.
A cross party bill for same sex marriage will be presented to the House of Representatives in August but there’s not guarantee of a conscience vote across the main parties, which is why we are still debating it.A cross party bill for same sex marriage will be presented to the House of Representatives in August but there’s not guarantee of a conscience vote across the main parties, which is why we are still debating it.
He introduces Penny Wong as the first speaker.He introduces Penny Wong as the first speaker.
12.31pm AEST03:3112.31pm AEST03:31
You can watch the debate on ABC News 24, Sky TV and live streamed here. Do let me know your thoughts on how it is progressing in the comments.You can watch the debate on ABC News 24, Sky TV and live streamed here. Do let me know your thoughts on how it is progressing in the comments.
12.29pm AEST03:2912.29pm AEST03:29
Meanwhile, down at the National Press Club:Meanwhile, down at the National Press Club:
Press Club audience is discouraged from cheering during debate, "it's not Q and A".Press Club audience is discouraged from cheering during debate, "it's not Q and A".
12.20pm AEST03:2012.20pm AEST03:20
There has been some consternation that this debate is going ahead at all. The gist is mostly that Bernardi’s views should not be legitimised or given a platform through such a debate, as if he does not already have a platform for them by, I dunno, being a Liberal senator.There has been some consternation that this debate is going ahead at all. The gist is mostly that Bernardi’s views should not be legitimised or given a platform through such a debate, as if he does not already have a platform for them by, I dunno, being a Liberal senator.
People seem to think Wong is stooping by debating him, your correspondent has a couple of thoughts on that:People seem to think Wong is stooping by debating him, your correspondent has a couple of thoughts on that:
I wont be monitoring the #NPC address today. It's beyond me why @SenatorWong or the NPC Board would give Bernardi a platform. #SSMI wont be monitoring the #NPC address today. It's beyond me why @SenatorWong or the NPC Board would give Bernardi a platform. #SSM
Stunned PWong would legitimise and share platform w. Lib who has said SSM could lead to acceptance of bestiality. https://t.co/q30J03lBiaStunned PWong would legitimise and share platform w. Lib who has said SSM could lead to acceptance of bestiality. https://t.co/q30J03lBia
Updated at 12.23pm AESTUpdated at 12.23pm AEST
11.53am AEST02:5311.53am AEST02:53
Hello political tragics and tragicistas, while the good ship Bronwyn expenses sails on, we have clouds gathering over the National Press Club for what is shaping up to be an electric showdown (if you do indeed believe a debate between politicians can be electric, which I do).Hello political tragics and tragicistas, while the good ship Bronwyn expenses sails on, we have clouds gathering over the National Press Club for what is shaping up to be an electric showdown (if you do indeed believe a debate between politicians can be electric, which I do).
In one corner we have Penny Wong, outspoken marriage equality advocate and Labor senator, who only last weekend teared up on stage when speaking on Labor binding its members to vote in favour of same-sex marriage from 2019.In one corner we have Penny Wong, outspoken marriage equality advocate and Labor senator, who only last weekend teared up on stage when speaking on Labor binding its members to vote in favour of same-sex marriage from 2019.
In the other corner we have Cory “common sense lives here” Bernardi who has long railed against same sex marriage predicting all sorts of catastrophes such as bestiality and polygamy stemming from recognising the love of two human beings who are of the same gender through marriage.In the other corner we have Cory “common sense lives here” Bernardi who has long railed against same sex marriage predicting all sorts of catastrophes such as bestiality and polygamy stemming from recognising the love of two human beings who are of the same gender through marriage.
The debate is due to start at 12.30pm, so pull your lunch up to your computer and/or phone, and let’s metaphorically helicopter in together.The debate is due to start at 12.30pm, so pull your lunch up to your computer and/or phone, and let’s metaphorically helicopter in together.
Updated at 12.18pm AESTUpdated at 12.18pm AEST