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Version 6 Version 7
Same-sex marriage debate: Penny Wong v Cory Bernardi – as it happened Same-sex marriage debate: Penny Wong v Cory Bernardi – as it happened
(35 minutes later)
2.01pm AEST05:012.01pm AEST05:01
SummarySummary
Bridie JabourBridie Jabour
I am going to leave it you dear readers to decide who won the debate but here are the key arguments and takeaways from Penny Wong and Cory Bernardi: I am going to leave it you, dear readers, to decide who won the debate, but here are the key arguments and takeaways from Penny Wong and Cory Bernardi:
I will give them both the last word.I will give them both the last word.
Penny Wong:Penny Wong:
It’s not about treating people differently, it’s about equal treatment before the law. Something we do in every sphere of our life. It’s time friends to make the change, it’s time for marriage equality. It’s not about treating people differently. It’s about equal treatment before the law. Something we do in every sphere of our life. It’s time, friends, to make the change. It’s time for marriage equality.
Cory Bernardi:Cory Bernardi:
We have to observe the lived experience and we have to recognise that marriage has always been a sacred bond between a man and a woman.We have to observe the lived experience and we have to recognise that marriage has always been a sacred bond between a man and a woman.
Updated at 2.37pm AEST Updated at 3.45pm AEST
1.32pm AEST04:321.32pm AEST04:32
Closing statementsClosing statements
Closing statements.
Penny Wong says Cory Bernardi has wheeled out “tired” arguments and what he is really saying is that gay people are not equal.Penny Wong says Cory Bernardi has wheeled out “tired” arguments and what he is really saying is that gay people are not equal.
Let’s lift the gaze, let’s look at what we can be, because marriage equality is about just that, it’s about equality. It’s not about treating people differently, it’s about equal treatment before the law. Something we do in every sphere of our life. It’s time friends to make the change, it’s time for marriage equality. Let’s lift the gaze, let’s look at what we can be, because marriage equality is about just that: it’s about equality. It’s not about treating people differently; it’s about equal treatment before the law. Something we do in every sphere of our life. It’s time, friends, to make the change. It’s time for marriage equality.
Bernardi says the phrase “marriage equality” is a catchy slogan but has no meaning because there is no legal discrimination of same-sex couples in Australia except for the categorisation of their relationship of not being a married couple.Bernardi says the phrase “marriage equality” is a catchy slogan but has no meaning because there is no legal discrimination of same-sex couples in Australia except for the categorisation of their relationship of not being a married couple.
That’s because marriage has always stood as a heterosexual union since time immemorial and the consequences of changing that are not as simple as allowing one group of people to join in. It’s broad ranging, and quite significant and we’re seeing the impact of those consequences internationally. We have to observe the lived experience and we have to recognise that marriage has always been a sacred bond between a man and a woman and I believe it should remain that way. That’s because marriage has always stood as a heterosexual union since time immemorial and the consequences of changing that are not as simple as allowing one group of people to join in. It’s broad-ranging, and quite significant and we’re seeing the impact of those consequences internationally. We have to observe the lived experience and we have to recognise that marriage has always been a sacred bond between a man and a woman, and I believe it should remain that way.
Updated at 1.50pm AEST Updated at 3.42pm AEST
1.28pm AEST04:281.28pm AEST04:28
Last question.Last question.
For Wong, what happens if the Liberal party is given a free vote, the bill is introduced, and it is defeated? For Wong: what happens if the Liberal party is given a free vote, the bill is introduced, and it is defeated?
Penny Wong:Penny Wong:
I think that LGBTI Australians and our allies are not going to go away on this issue. We will keep going. Because, you know, the principle of equality is something we do hold dear and I think most Australians in respect of this matter agree.I think that LGBTI Australians and our allies are not going to go away on this issue. We will keep going. Because, you know, the principle of equality is something we do hold dear and I think most Australians in respect of this matter agree.
For Bernardi, if a plebiscite is held and there is a majority support, would you then be prepared to vote for it, to accept the will of the people in Parliament and put your name down to vote in favour of same-sex marriage? For Bernardi: if a plebiscite is held and there is majority support, would you then be prepared to vote for it, to accept the will of the people in Parliament and put your name down to vote in favour of same-sex marriage?
I’m not advocating for a plebiscite,but if the Parliament continues to go through bill after bill after bill and it keeps, continues to get rejected we have to decide it one way or another in a decisive manner and quite frankly if there was a majority of States that said and a majority of people in a majority of States said that’s what we want, we want to redefine marriage to open it up to same-sex couples, who am I to argue with that, quite frankly? Cory Bernardi:
I’m not advocating for a plebiscite, but if the parliament continues to go through bill after bill after bill and it keeps, continues to get rejected we have to decide it one way or another in a decisive manner. And, quite frankly, if there was a majority of states that said and a majority of people in a majority of states said that’s what we want, we want to redefine marriage to open it up to same-sex couples, who am I to argue with that, quite frankly?
Updated at 3.38pm AEST
1.26pm AEST04:261.26pm AEST04:26
Penny Wong and Cory Bernardi are being slightly diverted and asked for their throughts on the booing of Adam Goodes, which has been called out as racially motivated:Penny Wong and Cory Bernardi are being slightly diverted and asked for their throughts on the booing of Adam Goodes, which has been called out as racially motivated:
Bernardi:Bernardi:
The footy’s a pretty robust game, the supporters are pretty robust. I hope they do the right thing, but I don’t believe that, for example, booing is generally racially motivated. They don’t like the other team and don’t like some of the players in it and that’s part of football. I’ve always encouraged my kids not to boo at the football – applaud good play on the other side – but it’s a bit tribal.The footy’s a pretty robust game, the supporters are pretty robust. I hope they do the right thing, but I don’t believe that, for example, booing is generally racially motivated. They don’t like the other team and don’t like some of the players in it and that’s part of football. I’ve always encouraged my kids not to boo at the football – applaud good play on the other side – but it’s a bit tribal.
Wong:Wong:
To be honest, I haven’t followed all that has been written about the Adam Goodes issues, incident, because we’ve had a busy weekend and then I had to prep for this. But what I would say is this: I think there is a very big difference between people having a go at you because you’re not playing well or you’re from the other team or because people think you’re no good to people having a go because of your race.To be honest, I haven’t followed all that has been written about the Adam Goodes issues, incident, because we’ve had a busy weekend and then I had to prep for this. But what I would say is this: I think there is a very big difference between people having a go at you because you’re not playing well or you’re from the other team or because people think you’re no good to people having a go because of your race.
Updated at 3.00pm AESTUpdated at 3.00pm AEST
1.23pm AEST04:231.23pm AEST04:23
Some back and forthSome back and forth
Penny Wong is challenging Cory Bernardi’s assertion he is a classic conservative.Penny Wong is challenging Cory Bernardi’s assertion he is a classic conservative.
If you ascribe to the principles of liberalism, Liberals believe in the freedom of the individual. The position you’re asserting particularly in relation to the party room is, in fact, a sort of collective dictatorship where the views of the many have to be imposed on the views of all?If you ascribe to the principles of liberalism, Liberals believe in the freedom of the individual. The position you’re asserting particularly in relation to the party room is, in fact, a sort of collective dictatorship where the views of the many have to be imposed on the views of all?
Bernardi talks about Labor binding its party to votes but Wong pushes more on Liberals.Bernardi talks about Labor binding its party to votes but Wong pushes more on Liberals.
Bernardi:Bernardi:
As a party we have principles and values that people generally subscribe when they get into it.As a party we have principles and values that people generally subscribe when they get into it.
Wong:Wong:
People are free unless the principles you agree with are transgressed – is that how it works? It’s a genuine question.People are free unless the principles you agree with are transgressed – is that how it works? It’s a genuine question.
Bernardi:Bernardi:
But what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to parlay Labor party dogmatic policy objectives with the Liberal party, in which we have general principles, we established party policy positions and then people are free to disagree.But what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to parlay Labor party dogmatic policy objectives with the Liberal party, in which we have general principles, we established party policy positions and then people are free to disagree.
Updated at 2.59pm AESTUpdated at 2.59pm AEST
1.20pm AEST04:201.20pm AEST04:20
Question: in Australia we have a very pluralistic society. This debate always seems to be very polarised. Isn’t our society and aren’t our laws strong enough to hold both of these opinions together in concurrency? We have a lot of religious exemptions for things like vaccination and voting, a manner of things that seem to work well. Why can’t both of your views be accepted and why can’t we move forward as a society with both of these things in hand?Question: in Australia we have a very pluralistic society. This debate always seems to be very polarised. Isn’t our society and aren’t our laws strong enough to hold both of these opinions together in concurrency? We have a lot of religious exemptions for things like vaccination and voting, a manner of things that seem to work well. Why can’t both of your views be accepted and why can’t we move forward as a society with both of these things in hand?
Penny Wong:Penny Wong:
I think that’s the course those of us on the side of marriage equality are advocating. We recognise there’s marriage between religious institutions and the marriage recognised by civil society. Because of the religious views of some, the secular state on behalf of you, tell us we’re not allowed to marry. That is not co-existence, that is simply saying ‘not allowed’.I think that’s the course those of us on the side of marriage equality are advocating. We recognise there’s marriage between religious institutions and the marriage recognised by civil society. Because of the religious views of some, the secular state on behalf of you, tell us we’re not allowed to marry. That is not co-existence, that is simply saying ‘not allowed’.
Cory Bernardi:Cory Bernardi:
I believe they do co-exist currently, but marriage has always been defined as between a man and a woman and we’re seeking to redefine it, because they want entry into that club, if you will. But they’re still entitled to register their relationships, they’re still entitled to all the benefits that accrue to de facto relationships or married relationships. There’s no discrimination under law.I believe they do co-exist currently, but marriage has always been defined as between a man and a woman and we’re seeking to redefine it, because they want entry into that club, if you will. But they’re still entitled to register their relationships, they’re still entitled to all the benefits that accrue to de facto relationships or married relationships. There’s no discrimination under law.
Updated at 2.56pm AESTUpdated at 2.56pm AEST
1.17pm AEST04:171.17pm AEST04:17
Cory Bernardi is asked about a Crosby-Textor poll that found more than 50% of Christians in Australia supported same-sex marriage. He is asked if he is speaking for the minority.Cory Bernardi is asked about a Crosby-Textor poll that found more than 50% of Christians in Australia supported same-sex marriage. He is asked if he is speaking for the minority.
He rejects that interpretation of the poll and says 48% “strongly” support same-sex marriage which is less than a majority.He rejects that interpretation of the poll and says 48% “strongly” support same-sex marriage which is less than a majority.
I think in the Christian tradition, that people believe that marriage is a sacred institution and it should be retained as being between a man and a woman. That’s the feedback I overwhelmingly get.I think in the Christian tradition, that people believe that marriage is a sacred institution and it should be retained as being between a man and a woman. That’s the feedback I overwhelmingly get.
Updated at 2.48pm AESTUpdated at 2.48pm AEST
1.14pm AEST04:141.14pm AEST04:14
Cory Bernardi is arguing against the assumption same-sex marriage is inevitable, saying there used to be that sentiment about the republic and the emission trading scheme and both did not happen.Cory Bernardi is arguing against the assumption same-sex marriage is inevitable, saying there used to be that sentiment about the republic and the emission trading scheme and both did not happen.
I just don’t buy into things that just because it appears popular it’s the right thing to do for the country.I just don’t buy into things that just because it appears popular it’s the right thing to do for the country.
Penny Wong speaks again on children. The room is really with her – she is getting lots of scattered applause.Penny Wong speaks again on children. The room is really with her – she is getting lots of scattered applause.
We shouldn’t assume as senator Bernardi has that our children don’t have relationships with role models of both genders, which seems to be the assumption, or with biological parents.We shouldn’t assume as senator Bernardi has that our children don’t have relationships with role models of both genders, which seems to be the assumption, or with biological parents.
Wong agrees with Bernardi that same-sex marriage is not inevitable. She says reform is never won without fighting for it.Wong agrees with Bernardi that same-sex marriage is not inevitable. She says reform is never won without fighting for it.
Updated at 2.47pm AESTUpdated at 2.47pm AEST
1.11pm AEST04:111.11pm AEST04:11
Cory Bernardi is asked to expand on his comment that marriage was not invented.Cory Bernardi is asked to expand on his comment that marriage was not invented.
He explains:He explains:
Marriage wasn’t invented because it was never defined. It emerged by the fact that there was a man and a woman joining in a union and generally that union was about procreation, sometimes it was about money, about companionship, but this is going back for thousands of years. It was never defined, it has never been sought; just emerged as the way it should be and what the proposal is now is to change those years or centuries of lived experience to turn it into something that it never has been.Marriage wasn’t invented because it was never defined. It emerged by the fact that there was a man and a woman joining in a union and generally that union was about procreation, sometimes it was about money, about companionship, but this is going back for thousands of years. It was never defined, it has never been sought; just emerged as the way it should be and what the proposal is now is to change those years or centuries of lived experience to turn it into something that it never has been.
Updated at 2.45pm AESTUpdated at 2.45pm AEST
1.09pm AEST04:091.09pm AEST04:09
Cory Bernardi and Penny Wong now debating about conscience vote in the Liberal party on same-sex marriage. Obviously Wong is for and Bernardi is against.Cory Bernardi and Penny Wong now debating about conscience vote in the Liberal party on same-sex marriage. Obviously Wong is for and Bernardi is against.
Updated at 2.44pm AESTUpdated at 2.44pm AEST
1.07pm AEST04:071.07pm AEST04:07
Bernardi oddly denying he ever said same sex marriage could lead to bestiality. Yet here it is in hansard http://t.co/Z0R5zIjTPiBernardi oddly denying he ever said same sex marriage could lead to bestiality. Yet here it is in hansard http://t.co/Z0R5zIjTPi
1.06pm AEST04:061.06pm AEST04:06
Cory Bernardi is asked why children are such a central part of the same-sex marriage debate when same-sex couples can already have children and already are.Cory Bernardi is asked why children are such a central part of the same-sex marriage debate when same-sex couples can already have children and already are.
Bernardi is at pains to point out he does not think same-sex partners automatically make bad parents. But:Bernardi is at pains to point out he does not think same-sex partners automatically make bad parents. But:
There is a slight difference though in the sense that a same-sex couple can’t produce children alone; they need assistance from a third party. That makes a difference to the relationship for that child in some respects, but I would put to you if a child is loved, if a child is nurtured, developed and supported, that’s all we can really hope for in a child, but there is a different role that a father plays and a mother plays. They’re complementary roles; they have a different impact in how they engage with their children. I don’t think you can easily dismiss the role of one and you shouldn’t deliberately dismiss it but there are plenty of circumstances where that’s not the case and the children come out perfectly fine and well developed and well balanced. But I just don’t think it’s in society’s interest to deliberately deny those complementary inputs into a child’s development.There is a slight difference though in the sense that a same-sex couple can’t produce children alone; they need assistance from a third party. That makes a difference to the relationship for that child in some respects, but I would put to you if a child is loved, if a child is nurtured, developed and supported, that’s all we can really hope for in a child, but there is a different role that a father plays and a mother plays. They’re complementary roles; they have a different impact in how they engage with their children. I don’t think you can easily dismiss the role of one and you shouldn’t deliberately dismiss it but there are plenty of circumstances where that’s not the case and the children come out perfectly fine and well developed and well balanced. But I just don’t think it’s in society’s interest to deliberately deny those complementary inputs into a child’s development.
Updated at 2.44pm AESTUpdated at 2.44pm AEST
1.02pm AEST04:021.02pm AEST04:02
Question:Question:
In terms of this issue frequently raised about business owners who have a conscience objection to same-sex marriage potentially facing legal penalties for failing to provide services, is that a real concern those people should have? Would they face potentially legal action if they refused to assist same-sex marriages or weddings?In terms of this issue frequently raised about business owners who have a conscience objection to same-sex marriage potentially facing legal penalties for failing to provide services, is that a real concern those people should have? Would they face potentially legal action if they refused to assist same-sex marriages or weddings?
Wong says she expects the market would sort it out.Wong says she expects the market would sort it out.
I suspect that gay and lesbian couples are unlikely to go to bakers who really don’t like gay and lesbians, so I suspect we’d probably work it out.I suspect that gay and lesbian couples are unlikely to go to bakers who really don’t like gay and lesbians, so I suspect we’d probably work it out.
Bernardi says it is interesting Wong was quick to rule out supporting polygamous marriages.Bernardi says it is interesting Wong was quick to rule out supporting polygamous marriages.
That says to me that she’s got a line in the sand as we all do about what marriage should mean and what it should encompass. Some people are in the traditional definition and there are incremental changes that others would want to pursue in that regard. So it’s not about equality for all; it’s only about equality for some, apparently.That says to me that she’s got a line in the sand as we all do about what marriage should mean and what it should encompass. Some people are in the traditional definition and there are incremental changes that others would want to pursue in that regard. So it’s not about equality for all; it’s only about equality for some, apparently.
Updated at 2.42pm AESTUpdated at 2.42pm AEST
12.59pm AEST03:5912.59pm AEST03:59
Question to Wong:Question to Wong:
Would you be willing to support any move to change the definition of marriage to recognise multimember relationships?Would you be willing to support any move to change the definition of marriage to recognise multimember relationships?
Wong:Wong:
No.No.
12.59pm AEST03:5912.59pm AEST03:59
Now on to plebiscites and whether that would be a good idea.Now on to plebiscites and whether that would be a good idea.
Bernardi:Bernardi:
Maybe if people are not satisfied with the parliamentary decision and determination, maybe it should be put to the people and say if a majority of people in a majority of states want this change to happen ... but I’m not endorsing that. I think the parliament should deal with it, but the parliament has dealt with it.Maybe if people are not satisfied with the parliamentary decision and determination, maybe it should be put to the people and say if a majority of people in a majority of states want this change to happen ... but I’m not endorsing that. I think the parliament should deal with it, but the parliament has dealt with it.
Wong:Wong:
I think the plebiscite idea is a delaying tactic from a prime minister who is worried and whose supporters are worried that they might actually be losing the numbers for a cross-party bill, and I think we need to be clear about the motivation. A plebiscite would not be binding.I think the plebiscite idea is a delaying tactic from a prime minister who is worried and whose supporters are worried that they might actually be losing the numbers for a cross-party bill, and I think we need to be clear about the motivation. A plebiscite would not be binding.
Updated at 2.38pm AESTUpdated at 2.38pm AEST
12.56pm AEST03:5612.56pm AEST03:56
Now to questions. Cory Bernardi is asked if he thinks same-sex marriage could lead to bestiality.Now to questions. Cory Bernardi is asked if he thinks same-sex marriage could lead to bestiality.
He says he did not say that; he said it could lead to same-sex marriage being further redefined, perhaps by polygamous marriages.He says he did not say that; he said it could lead to same-sex marriage being further redefined, perhaps by polygamous marriages.
Now, if we’re going to redefine marriage to include one section of the community that has never been included in it before, how can we logically deny others who are going to use the same rights, same words that you can’t choose who you love, we just want our love to be acknowledged and our relationship to be endorsed. It’s a logical argument and it’s been borne true by evidence in the lived experience overseas.Now, if we’re going to redefine marriage to include one section of the community that has never been included in it before, how can we logically deny others who are going to use the same rights, same words that you can’t choose who you love, we just want our love to be acknowledged and our relationship to be endorsed. It’s a logical argument and it’s been borne true by evidence in the lived experience overseas.
Penny Wong says Hansard has a record of Bernardi saying it would lead to bestiality and she will make a commitment to him today to stand with him in any fight against that (to laughs).Penny Wong says Hansard has a record of Bernardi saying it would lead to bestiality and she will make a commitment to him today to stand with him in any fight against that (to laughs).
I would make this point, though, in his speech and we see it again to some extent in this response, those who want equality are referred to as the ‘vocal minority’ despite the fact the majority of Australians have indicated support for marriage equality. I would say this point: we don’t shout you down, we don’t denigrate your relationships, we don’t suggest your children are somehow compromised, so who are the people hurling insults in this debate?I would make this point, though, in his speech and we see it again to some extent in this response, those who want equality are referred to as the ‘vocal minority’ despite the fact the majority of Australians have indicated support for marriage equality. I would say this point: we don’t shout you down, we don’t denigrate your relationships, we don’t suggest your children are somehow compromised, so who are the people hurling insults in this debate?
Updated at 2.37pm AESTUpdated at 2.37pm AEST
12.53pm AEST03:5312.53pm AEST03:53
Cory Bernardi dismisses America and Ireland legalising same-sex marriage saying the pro-marriage equality lobby had millions behind them in Ireland and in America it was unelected people that made the decision.Cory Bernardi dismisses America and Ireland legalising same-sex marriage saying the pro-marriage equality lobby had millions behind them in Ireland and in America it was unelected people that made the decision.
There are many things redefining marriage won’t do, but there are many things that redefining marriage might do, and if overseas experience is any guide, it will do. It will lead to calls for further redefinitions using exactly the same arguments of equality made by the same-sex marriage advocates today. It will become a constant background of competing rights between individuals and businesses ... I believe there is no need to redefine marriage on the basis of equality. To do so is to live in a dictatorship of representativism where no thing is real [and] truths are denied if they’re considered inconvenient by the politically correct system.There are many things redefining marriage won’t do, but there are many things that redefining marriage might do, and if overseas experience is any guide, it will do. It will lead to calls for further redefinitions using exactly the same arguments of equality made by the same-sex marriage advocates today. It will become a constant background of competing rights between individuals and businesses ... I believe there is no need to redefine marriage on the basis of equality. To do so is to live in a dictatorship of representativism where no thing is real [and] truths are denied if they’re considered inconvenient by the politically correct system.
Updated at 2.35pm AESTUpdated at 2.35pm AEST
12.51pm AEST03:5112.51pm AEST03:51
Cory Bernardi quotes lots of statistics from polling saying Australians support children being raised by a mother and a father and nothing being able to replace a mother’s love.Cory Bernardi quotes lots of statistics from polling saying Australians support children being raised by a mother and a father and nothing being able to replace a mother’s love.
He talks about the responsibility adults have to children.He talks about the responsibility adults have to children.
I know it’s maybe going to be unpopular in this room and it might be called quaint and old-fashioned. It is children who have rights and adults who have responsibilities. But that concept is being turned on its head by the advocates for this cause, because if you grant the right to marry for same-sex couples, one can’t deny their right to a family, which immediately impacts the right of a child. Professor Margaret Somerville wrote it is one matter for children not to know their genetic identity as a result of unintended circumstances. It is quite another matter to deliberately destroy children’s links to their biological parents – and especially for society to be complicit in this destruction. Now, I can’t and I will not deny that some same-sex couples make much, much better parents than some married heterosexual couples. However, it doesn’t change the general principle that the ideal is still a child being raised by their married mother and father.I know it’s maybe going to be unpopular in this room and it might be called quaint and old-fashioned. It is children who have rights and adults who have responsibilities. But that concept is being turned on its head by the advocates for this cause, because if you grant the right to marry for same-sex couples, one can’t deny their right to a family, which immediately impacts the right of a child. Professor Margaret Somerville wrote it is one matter for children not to know their genetic identity as a result of unintended circumstances. It is quite another matter to deliberately destroy children’s links to their biological parents – and especially for society to be complicit in this destruction. Now, I can’t and I will not deny that some same-sex couples make much, much better parents than some married heterosexual couples. However, it doesn’t change the general principle that the ideal is still a child being raised by their married mother and father.
Updated at 2.33pm AESTUpdated at 2.33pm AEST
12.48pm AEST03:4812.48pm AEST03:48
Cory Bernardi accuses the same-sex marriage lobby of propaganda and name-calling:Cory Bernardi accuses the same-sex marriage lobby of propaganda and name-calling:
Whilst they also seek to paint those who support the time-honoured traditional definition as offensive, we’ve been called bigots, we’re told we are homophobes or worse, and on the name-calling, once again it’s simply another well-known propaganda technique designed to silence an alternative voice.Whilst they also seek to paint those who support the time-honoured traditional definition as offensive, we’ve been called bigots, we’re told we are homophobes or worse, and on the name-calling, once again it’s simply another well-known propaganda technique designed to silence an alternative voice.
Updated at 2.31pm AESTUpdated at 2.31pm AEST
12.46pm AEST03:4612.46pm AEST03:46
Cory Bernardi takes the stage: marriage is not a rightCory Bernardi takes the stage: marriage is not a right
Bernardi has begun with core conservative and traditional arguments. He talks about the difference between “rights” and “desires”.Bernardi has begun with core conservative and traditional arguments. He talks about the difference between “rights” and “desires”.
These desires are governed and formed by personal belief and self-interest, and yet they’re often presented in the public sphere as a right to correct a perceived wrong. Now, ironically in this new culture of rights, we’re often taken into the realm of a contest in deciding whose rights should prevail, and the homosexual marriage debate is a clear example of this contest. Marriage is not a right. It was not invented. Marriage simply is. Marriage has been reserved as a sacred bond between a man and a woman across times, across cultures, and across very different religious beliefs. It is the very foundation of the family and the family is the basic unit of society and thus marriage is a personal relationship with public significance and I believe we’re right to recognise it in our laws.These desires are governed and formed by personal belief and self-interest, and yet they’re often presented in the public sphere as a right to correct a perceived wrong. Now, ironically in this new culture of rights, we’re often taken into the realm of a contest in deciding whose rights should prevail, and the homosexual marriage debate is a clear example of this contest. Marriage is not a right. It was not invented. Marriage simply is. Marriage has been reserved as a sacred bond between a man and a woman across times, across cultures, and across very different religious beliefs. It is the very foundation of the family and the family is the basic unit of society and thus marriage is a personal relationship with public significance and I believe we’re right to recognise it in our laws.
Updated at 2.31pm AESTUpdated at 2.31pm AEST
12.45pm AEST03:4512.45pm AEST03:45
Penny Wong: Most things won't changePenny Wong: Most things won't change
Penny Wong finishes with some laughs by poking at some of the more extreme arguments against same-sex marriage and ends with what legalising same-sex marriage would mean:Penny Wong finishes with some laughs by poking at some of the more extreme arguments against same-sex marriage and ends with what legalising same-sex marriage would mean:
Well, Australians do see the injustice of denying marriage equality. Australians in same-sex relationships experience that injustice every day and if we achieve marriage quality most things won’t change. The sun will rise, heterosexual marriages won’t crumble, three-year-olds will still want more ice-cream than is good for them, but together we will have made a profound change. A statement to lesbian and gay Australians that we belong, that we are accepted, that our relationships matter, too. And it will also be a statement about the Australia we have become – an accepting, diverse and inclusive nation, and that, friends, is something to which we should aspire.Well, Australians do see the injustice of denying marriage equality. Australians in same-sex relationships experience that injustice every day and if we achieve marriage quality most things won’t change. The sun will rise, heterosexual marriages won’t crumble, three-year-olds will still want more ice-cream than is good for them, but together we will have made a profound change. A statement to lesbian and gay Australians that we belong, that we are accepted, that our relationships matter, too. And it will also be a statement about the Australia we have become – an accepting, diverse and inclusive nation, and that, friends, is something to which we should aspire.
Updated at 2.28pm AESTUpdated at 2.28pm AEST
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Penny Wong is now tackling indivdual arguments against same-sex marriage:Penny Wong is now tackling indivdual arguments against same-sex marriage:
Australians understand there’s nothing to fear from equality, yet so many in our government stubbornly cling to discriminatory laws and, over time, the arguments against equality have become increasingly irrational. The bogeymen of the slippery slope, or warnings about our relations with Asia, simply don’t stack up as reasons to deny equality. And we also see the wellbeing of our children marshalled to the cause of discrimination. Leave aside for a moment the truth that the quality of parenting is altogether more complex than simple assertions about gender. The reality is this, same-sex couples already have children. Marriage equality will not alter that.Australians understand there’s nothing to fear from equality, yet so many in our government stubbornly cling to discriminatory laws and, over time, the arguments against equality have become increasingly irrational. The bogeymen of the slippery slope, or warnings about our relations with Asia, simply don’t stack up as reasons to deny equality. And we also see the wellbeing of our children marshalled to the cause of discrimination. Leave aside for a moment the truth that the quality of parenting is altogether more complex than simple assertions about gender. The reality is this, same-sex couples already have children. Marriage equality will not alter that.
Wong dismisses faith-based arguments and says the bill is not seeking churches to marry people of the same gender. She is now getting to the emotional core of why she is fighting for same-sex marriage to be legalised:Wong dismisses faith-based arguments and says the bill is not seeking churches to marry people of the same gender. She is now getting to the emotional core of why she is fighting for same-sex marriage to be legalised:
I would like you to recall that this is more than a theoretical debate, much more. This is a debate about real people. We are your brothers and your sisters, your sons and your daughters, your friends and your fellow Australians, and this is a debate about us. A debate about rights; a debate about intimate and personal relationships; a debate about the people we love. Most of us hope to find the person we want to share our life with, the person we love. Not all of us are lucky enough to do so and not all of us are able to hold on to it. But if we do, and I’m prepared to make that commitment to declare that enduring bond of which justice Kennedy spoke, surely that ought to be celebrated and not feared.I would like you to recall that this is more than a theoretical debate, much more. This is a debate about real people. We are your brothers and your sisters, your sons and your daughters, your friends and your fellow Australians, and this is a debate about us. A debate about rights; a debate about intimate and personal relationships; a debate about the people we love. Most of us hope to find the person we want to share our life with, the person we love. Not all of us are lucky enough to do so and not all of us are able to hold on to it. But if we do, and I’m prepared to make that commitment to declare that enduring bond of which justice Kennedy spoke, surely that ought to be celebrated and not feared.
Updated at 2.26pm AESTUpdated at 2.26pm AEST
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Wong is speaking on past struggles of other oppressed people, such as women and Indigenous people. She says it is not gay people who are revolutionising marriage, but heterosexuals.Wong is speaking on past struggles of other oppressed people, such as women and Indigenous people. She says it is not gay people who are revolutionising marriage, but heterosexuals.
It is precisely because heterosexuals have changed marriage from an economic arrangement to a relationship of love and support that gay and lesbian people are seeking to join it.It is precisely because heterosexuals have changed marriage from an economic arrangement to a relationship of love and support that gay and lesbian people are seeking to join it.
Wong talks about the support she has received from different parts of the Australian community in her quest to legalise same-sex marriage, noting the congratulatory cards she got on the birth of her children with her female partner.Wong talks about the support she has received from different parts of the Australian community in her quest to legalise same-sex marriage, noting the congratulatory cards she got on the birth of her children with her female partner.
Updated at 2.24pm AESTUpdated at 2.24pm AEST
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Penny Wong opens quoting a judge from America’s supreme court decision last month which legalises same-sex marriage across the country. She compares it to interracial couples being prevented from marrying a few decades ago and the restrictions upon them.Penny Wong opens quoting a judge from America’s supreme court decision last month which legalises same-sex marriage across the country. She compares it to interracial couples being prevented from marrying a few decades ago and the restrictions upon them.
In Australia today, two citizens who love each other and who wish to make a public declaration of their mutual and exclusive commitment through the ceremony of marriage are prohibited from doing so, solely on the basis of their gender. No other attribute, no other disqualification, simply because they are of the same gender. If the disqualifying attribute were race, age or religion, such a proposition would be rightly seen as bizarre. But it remains our law in respect of same-sex marriage.In Australia today, two citizens who love each other and who wish to make a public declaration of their mutual and exclusive commitment through the ceremony of marriage are prohibited from doing so, solely on the basis of their gender. No other attribute, no other disqualification, simply because they are of the same gender. If the disqualifying attribute were race, age or religion, such a proposition would be rightly seen as bizarre. But it remains our law in respect of same-sex marriage.
Updated at 2.22pm AESTUpdated at 2.22pm AEST
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Steve Lewis is chairing the same-sex marriage debate. He opens with countries such as Ireland and America recently legalising same-sex marriage nationally, but notes Australia is not there yet.Steve Lewis is chairing the same-sex marriage debate. He opens with countries such as Ireland and America recently legalising same-sex marriage nationally, but notes Australia is not there yet.
A cross-party bill for same-sex marriage will be presented to the House of Representatives in August but there’s no guarantee of a conscience vote across the main parties, which is why we are still debating it.A cross-party bill for same-sex marriage will be presented to the House of Representatives in August but there’s no guarantee of a conscience vote across the main parties, which is why we are still debating it.
He introduces Penny Wong as the first speaker.He introduces Penny Wong as the first speaker.
Updated at 2.20pm AESTUpdated at 2.20pm AEST
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You can watch the debate on ABC News 24, Sky TV and live streamed here. Do let me know your thoughts on how it is progressing in the comments.You can watch the debate on ABC News 24, Sky TV and live streamed here. Do let me know your thoughts on how it is progressing in the comments.
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Meanwhile, down at the National Press Club:Meanwhile, down at the National Press Club:
Press Club audience is discouraged from cheering during debate, "it's not Q and A".Press Club audience is discouraged from cheering during debate, "it's not Q and A".
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There has been some consternation that this debate is going ahead at all. The gist is mostly that Bernardi’s views should not be legitimised or given a platform through such a debate, as if he does not already have a platform for them by, I dunno, being a Liberal senator.There has been some consternation that this debate is going ahead at all. The gist is mostly that Bernardi’s views should not be legitimised or given a platform through such a debate, as if he does not already have a platform for them by, I dunno, being a Liberal senator.
People seem to think Wong is stooping by debating him, your correspondent has a couple of thoughts on that:People seem to think Wong is stooping by debating him, your correspondent has a couple of thoughts on that:
I wont be monitoring the #NPC address today. It's beyond me why @SenatorWong or the NPC Board would give Bernardi a platform. #SSMI wont be monitoring the #NPC address today. It's beyond me why @SenatorWong or the NPC Board would give Bernardi a platform. #SSM
Stunned PWong would legitimise and share platform w. Lib who has said SSM could lead to acceptance of bestiality. https://t.co/q30J03lBiaStunned PWong would legitimise and share platform w. Lib who has said SSM could lead to acceptance of bestiality. https://t.co/q30J03lBia
Updated at 2.19pm AESTUpdated at 2.19pm AEST
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Hello, political tragics and tragicistas. While the good ship Bronwyn expenses sails on, we have clouds gathering over the National Press Club for what is shaping up to be an electric showdown (if you do indeed believe a debate between politicians can be electric, which I do).Hello, political tragics and tragicistas. While the good ship Bronwyn expenses sails on, we have clouds gathering over the National Press Club for what is shaping up to be an electric showdown (if you do indeed believe a debate between politicians can be electric, which I do).
In one corner we have Penny Wong, outspoken marriage equality advocate and Labor senator, who only last weekend teared up on stage when speaking on Labor binding its members to vote in favour of same-sex marriage from 2019.In one corner we have Penny Wong, outspoken marriage equality advocate and Labor senator, who only last weekend teared up on stage when speaking on Labor binding its members to vote in favour of same-sex marriage from 2019.
In the other corner we have Cory “common sense lives here” Bernardi, who has long railed against same-sex marriage, predicting all sorts of catastrophes such as bestiality and polygamy stemming from recognising the love of two human beings who are of the same gender through marriage.In the other corner we have Cory “common sense lives here” Bernardi, who has long railed against same-sex marriage, predicting all sorts of catastrophes such as bestiality and polygamy stemming from recognising the love of two human beings who are of the same gender through marriage.
The debate is due to start at 12.30pm, so pull your lunch up to your computer and/or phone, and let’s metaphorically helicopter in together.The debate is due to start at 12.30pm, so pull your lunch up to your computer and/or phone, and let’s metaphorically helicopter in together.
Updated at 2.16pm AESTUpdated at 2.16pm AEST