This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2015/aug/25/sydney-siege-inquest-experts-debate-whether-it-was-a-terrorist-attack-rolling-report
The article has changed 15 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 13 | Version 14 |
|---|---|
| Sydney siege inquest: experts disagree over Monis's motives – as it happened | Sydney siege inquest: experts disagree over Monis's motives – as it happened |
| (30 days later) | |
| 7.53am BST | 7.53am BST |
| 07:53 | 07:53 |
| A very eventful day here. Here’s how it went down: | A very eventful day here. Here’s how it went down: |
| A news wrap and podcast up shortly. | A news wrap and podcast up shortly. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.53am BST | at 7.53am BST |
| 7.44am BST | 7.44am BST |
| 07:44 | 07:44 |
| The hearing on whether to unmask these two solicitors had been scheduled for Wednesday morning at 9:15am. | The hearing on whether to unmask these two solicitors had been scheduled for Wednesday morning at 9:15am. |
| 7.41am BST | 7.41am BST |
| 07:41 | 07:41 |
| News organisation launch bid to lift suppression order on lawyers' identities | News organisation launch bid to lift suppression order on lawyers' identities |
| Several news organisations have launched a legal bid to reveal the identities of two Director of Public Prosecutions lawyers, including one accused of mishandling Man Haron Monis’ bail application. | Several news organisations have launched a legal bid to reveal the identities of two Director of Public Prosecutions lawyers, including one accused of mishandling Man Haron Monis’ bail application. |
| The inquest has previously heard one of the solicitors, who appeared in a bail hearing for the gunman in December 2013, was “insufficiently prepared” for his court appearances and failed to present crucial evidence. | The inquest has previously heard one of the solicitors, who appeared in a bail hearing for the gunman in December 2013, was “insufficiently prepared” for his court appearances and failed to present crucial evidence. |
| An expert bail panel found another bail hearing, run by the other solicitor in October 2014, “could have been handled differently”. | An expert bail panel found another bail hearing, run by the other solicitor in October 2014, “could have been handled differently”. |
| The media organisations, including the ABC, News Corp, Fairfax, and the Nine and Seven Networks, made the submission after the close of Tuesday’s public hearings. | The media organisations, including the ABC, News Corp, Fairfax, and the Nine and Seven Networks, made the submission after the close of Tuesday’s public hearings. |
| Dauid Sibtain, for the news outlets, said there was “no basis” for keeping the identities of the pair secret. | Dauid Sibtain, for the news outlets, said there was “no basis” for keeping the identities of the pair secret. |
| He said the continued suppression of the solicitors’ identities - ostensibly to avoid the risk they be defamed - would need to be “founded upon something far more substantial, and I await to see what that is”. | He said the continued suppression of the solicitors’ identities - ostensibly to avoid the risk they be defamed - would need to be “founded upon something far more substantial, and I await to see what that is”. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.41am BST | at 7.41am BST |
| 7.01am BST | 7.01am BST |
| 07:01 | 07:01 |
| Did Monis behave like a terrorist during the siege? No. | Did Monis behave like a terrorist during the siege? No. |
| “Do you think he behaved like a terrorist during the siege?” Gormly asks Barrelle. | “Do you think he behaved like a terrorist during the siege?” Gormly asks Barrelle. |
| “No,” she replies. | “No,” she replies. |
| Her reasons, unfortunately, veer a little close to the suppression order to be reported - she’s relying on evidence of what happened inside the Lindt Cafe that won’t be heard publicly until early next year. | Her reasons, unfortunately, veer a little close to the suppression order to be reported - she’s relying on evidence of what happened inside the Lindt Cafe that won’t be heard publicly until early next year. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.06am BST | at 7.06am BST |
| 6.55am BST | 6.55am BST |
| 06:55 | 06:55 |
| I’m very limited in what I can report here, but to give a taste of Barrelle’s evidence, Gormly has just suggested it is “difficult to accept that Monis could be triggered by anything other than his own interests” and that his stated grievances - including a concern for the victims of the invasion of Afghanistan - “are no more than crutches or invented reasons for his statements and stands”. | I’m very limited in what I can report here, but to give a taste of Barrelle’s evidence, Gormly has just suggested it is “difficult to accept that Monis could be triggered by anything other than his own interests” and that his stated grievances - including a concern for the victims of the invasion of Afghanistan - “are no more than crutches or invented reasons for his statements and stands”. |
| Barrelle has said this is “quite a good summary of [Monis’] personality and demeanour”. | Barrelle has said this is “quite a good summary of [Monis’] personality and demeanour”. |
| 6.31am BST | 6.31am BST |
| 06:31 | 06:31 |
| Kate Barrelle, a forensic psychologist specialising in radicalisation, is in the witness box. She is discussing Monis’s state of mind at the time of the siege. However, her evidence is subject to an extensive non-publication order. We’re seeking to obtain a copy of her report – likely to come overnight – and we can report what we’re allowed on Wednesday. | Kate Barrelle, a forensic psychologist specialising in radicalisation, is in the witness box. She is discussing Monis’s state of mind at the time of the siege. However, her evidence is subject to an extensive non-publication order. We’re seeking to obtain a copy of her report – likely to come overnight – and we can report what we’re allowed on Wednesday. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 6.43am BST | at 6.43am BST |
| 6.06am BST | 6.06am BST |
| 06:06 | 06:06 |
| Gormly is now suggesting that the office of the DPP suffers from a culture where launching views of bail decisions is discouraged. He asks: | Gormly is now suggesting that the office of the DPP suffers from a culture where launching views of bail decisions is discouraged. He asks: |
| Is applying for a review at the DPP something that is discouraged by the DPP ... unless there are very strong grounds? | Is applying for a review at the DPP something that is discouraged by the DPP ... unless there are very strong grounds? |
| The solicitor answers: | The solicitor answers: |
| A recommendation to review is not discouraged in any way. My experience has always been that the director is always very interested in hearing from his officers as to recommendations, and their views to matters. | A recommendation to review is not discouraged in any way. My experience has always been that the director is always very interested in hearing from his officers as to recommendations, and their views to matters. |
| Gormly goes in another way: | Gormly goes in another way: |
| Would you agree that there is a culture among DPP officers that makes the seeking of a review unusual? | Would you agree that there is a culture among DPP officers that makes the seeking of a review unusual? |
| The solicitor can only speak for the solicitor’s office, and “I would reject that for the people that I work with.” | The solicitor can only speak for the solicitor’s office, and “I would reject that for the people that I work with.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 6.44am BST | at 6.44am BST |
| 5.52am BST | 5.52am BST |
| 05:52 | 05:52 |
| Gormly is asking when the solicitor destroyed his hand-written notes from the Monis matter. Is there any chance it was destroyed after the siege in December 2014? | Gormly is asking when the solicitor destroyed his hand-written notes from the Monis matter. Is there any chance it was destroyed after the siege in December 2014? |
| Now the solicitor’s voice is raised voice and very clearly enunciates: “Absolutely without a doubt before the siege.” | Now the solicitor’s voice is raised voice and very clearly enunciates: “Absolutely without a doubt before the siege.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 6.45am BST | at 6.45am BST |
| 5.29am BST | 5.29am BST |
| 05:29 | 05:29 |
| The DPP solicitor – who, again, we cannot name – has returned to the box, still answering questions from David Buchanan SC, the barrister for the DPP. We’re going over some of the aspersions that have been cast against the solicitor in the past few days. | The DPP solicitor – who, again, we cannot name – has returned to the box, still answering questions from David Buchanan SC, the barrister for the DPP. We’re going over some of the aspersions that have been cast against the solicitor in the past few days. |
| Gormly has returned to this issue of why the solicitor declined to prepare written submissions, in response to Monis’s lawyer’s 30-page file arguing for his client to be granted bail. | Gormly has returned to this issue of why the solicitor declined to prepare written submissions, in response to Monis’s lawyer’s 30-page file arguing for his client to be granted bail. |
| Gormly: | Gormly: |
| Is it not the case that whatever you might say about the interplay with his honour, you were dealing with a bench that was informed by 30 pages of detailed, well-crafted written submissions. | Is it not the case that whatever you might say about the interplay with his honour, you were dealing with a bench that was informed by 30 pages of detailed, well-crafted written submissions. |
| The solicitor: | The solicitor: |
| Yes. | Yes. |
| Gormly: | Gormly: |
| You did not have any written submissions at all, did you? | You did not have any written submissions at all, did you? |
| The solicitor: | The solicitor: |
| No, I didn’t. | No, I didn’t. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 6.46am BST | at 6.46am BST |
| 4.30am BST | 4.30am BST |
| 04:30 | 04:30 |
| While the lawyers eat their lunch, let’s recap an interesting morning: | While the lawyers eat their lunch, let’s recap an interesting morning: |
| We’re back at 2pm. | We’re back at 2pm. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.46am BST | at 7.46am BST |
| 4.00am BST | 4.00am BST |
| 04:00 | 04:00 |
| The other issue that’s been raised repeatedly is whether the DPP solicitor cited the correct bail precedent in opposing Monis’s bail. The solicitor told the magistrate the law was neutral on whether Monis should be granted bail. But we’ve heard in recent days that actually “exceptional circumstances” needed to be proved in order to be bailed. | The other issue that’s been raised repeatedly is whether the DPP solicitor cited the correct bail precedent in opposing Monis’s bail. The solicitor told the magistrate the law was neutral on whether Monis should be granted bail. But we’ve heard in recent days that actually “exceptional circumstances” needed to be proved in order to be bailed. |
| The solicitor says the threshold for bail in this case was irrelevant, however. | The solicitor says the threshold for bail in this case was irrelevant, however. |
| “Even if an exceptional circumstances test could be applied to the evidence in the case of Mr Monis, that test would have been met,” the solicitor said. The solicitor cites reasons I cannot report, unfortunately, due to a suppression order. | “Even if an exceptional circumstances test could be applied to the evidence in the case of Mr Monis, that test would have been met,” the solicitor said. The solicitor cites reasons I cannot report, unfortunately, due to a suppression order. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.15am BST | at 7.15am BST |
| 3.41am BST | 3.41am BST |
| 03:41 | 03:41 |
| One of the apparent errors this solicitor made was destroying their files pertaining to the Monis case in November 2014. | One of the apparent errors this solicitor made was destroying their files pertaining to the Monis case in November 2014. |
| “I needed some more shelf space; I was doing some spring cleaning,” the solicitor said. It had been nearly a year since Monis’s bail hearing on the accessory to murder charge. “It was one of those things that it was time to now cull, and move on, and make some space,” the solicitor said. | “I needed some more shelf space; I was doing some spring cleaning,” the solicitor said. It had been nearly a year since Monis’s bail hearing on the accessory to murder charge. “It was one of those things that it was time to now cull, and move on, and make some space,” the solicitor said. |
| Files are routinely “culled”, the solicitor said. The solicitor held on to these documents for so long because the solicitor felt a bail review might one day be requested by the police. Their reaction to the news Monis had been bailed was “anger, disappointment, upset”, the solicitor said. | Files are routinely “culled”, the solicitor said. The solicitor held on to these documents for so long because the solicitor felt a bail review might one day be requested by the police. Their reaction to the news Monis had been bailed was “anger, disappointment, upset”, the solicitor said. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.16am BST | at 7.16am BST |
| 3.28am BST | 3.28am BST |
| 03:28 | 03:28 |
| Back in the box is the DPP solicitor (identity suppressed) who handled Monis’s December 2013 bail application. After taking a hiding in the past days, the solicitor is finally being examined by the DPP’s barrister and getting a chance to explain. | Back in the box is the DPP solicitor (identity suppressed) who handled Monis’s December 2013 bail application. After taking a hiding in the past days, the solicitor is finally being examined by the DPP’s barrister and getting a chance to explain. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.17am BST | at 7.17am BST |
| 2.34am BST | 2.34am BST |
| 02:34 | 02:34 |
| Phew, that was a busy hour. A short intermission now. It’s expected the inquest will resume with a DPP solicitor (name suppressed) in the witness box. The solicitor ran Monis’s December 2013 bail hearing and has been answering claims of being insufficiently prepared for the hearing and failing to present key evidence that might have seen Monis jailed. | Phew, that was a busy hour. A short intermission now. It’s expected the inquest will resume with a DPP solicitor (name suppressed) in the witness box. The solicitor ran Monis’s December 2013 bail hearing and has been answering claims of being insufficiently prepared for the hearing and failing to present key evidence that might have seen Monis jailed. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.17am BST | at 7.17am BST |
| 2.28am BST | 2.28am BST |
| 02:28 | 02:28 |
| Gormly puts to Hoffman assumptions that Monis exhibited “mixed behaviours” in the cafe, apparently arranging for food, being considerate of older hostages, facilitating toilet breaks and not carrying out threats of violence until the very end “when it must have been apparent that things would not go as he was endeavouring to negotiate them to occur”. Does that change Hoffman’s view it was a terrorist attack? | Gormly puts to Hoffman assumptions that Monis exhibited “mixed behaviours” in the cafe, apparently arranging for food, being considerate of older hostages, facilitating toilet breaks and not carrying out threats of violence until the very end “when it must have been apparent that things would not go as he was endeavouring to negotiate them to occur”. Does that change Hoffman’s view it was a terrorist attack? |
| “Not in the slightest,” Hoffman says, pointing out that treating the hostages decently some of the time actually played into Monis’s motives, as far as keeping them docile and hysteria under control. He may have even been trying to induce a kind of Stockholm syndrome, Hoffman says. | “Not in the slightest,” Hoffman says, pointing out that treating the hostages decently some of the time actually played into Monis’s motives, as far as keeping them docile and hysteria under control. He may have even been trying to induce a kind of Stockholm syndrome, Hoffman says. |
| What about the fact it was apparently “recently planned event, poorly planned event, and that the motives for the event were mixed and were changed along the way?” Gormly asks. | What about the fact it was apparently “recently planned event, poorly planned event, and that the motives for the event were mixed and were changed along the way?” Gormly asks. |
| The only change that would have mattered is if he had let the hostages go, Hoffman replies. | The only change that would have mattered is if he had let the hostages go, Hoffman replies. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.18am BST | at 7.18am BST |
| 2.14am BST | 2.14am BST |
| 02:14 | 02:14 |
| Hoffman’s larger point is that in most cases we will never know a perpetrator’s motivations — “Why has someone become a terrorist is the holy grail we continue to search for,” he says, and so we ought to confine our criteria to the act, instead of the motivation. | Hoffman’s larger point is that in most cases we will never know a perpetrator’s motivations — “Why has someone become a terrorist is the holy grail we continue to search for,” he says, and so we ought to confine our criteria to the act, instead of the motivation. |
| We’re going to be hearing from a psychologist who specialises in radicalisation later on Tuesday, so we will get some insight into Monis’s mental state, and perhaps his motivations, too. | We’re going to be hearing from a psychologist who specialises in radicalisation later on Tuesday, so we will get some insight into Monis’s mental state, and perhaps his motivations, too. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.19am BST | at 7.19am BST |
| 2.05am BST | 2.05am BST |
| 02:05 | 02:05 |
| Though Monis had no contact with anybody from Isis, Hoffman argues that he was responding to a September 2014 “call to violence” by Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, a senior Isis leader. Here’s what Adnani said in September: | Though Monis had no contact with anybody from Isis, Hoffman argues that he was responding to a September 2014 “call to violence” by Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, a senior Isis leader. Here’s what Adnani said in September: |
| If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be. | If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be. |
| Do not ask for anyone’s advice and do not seek anyone’s verdict. Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military, for they have the same ruling. Both of them are disbelievers. | Do not ask for anyone’s advice and do not seek anyone’s verdict. Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military, for they have the same ruling. Both of them are disbelievers. |
| Of course, somewhat opportunistically, Isis later claimed Monis’s act in its propaganda magazine, Dabiq, as an example of the sort of violence it had called for. | Of course, somewhat opportunistically, Isis later claimed Monis’s act in its propaganda magazine, Dabiq, as an example of the sort of violence it had called for. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 7.20am BST | at 7.20am BST |