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| Sydney siege inquest: experts disagree over Monis's motives – rolling report | Sydney siege inquest: experts disagree over Monis's motives – rolling report |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 3.06pm AEST06:06 | |
| Gormly is now suggesting that the office of the DPP suffers from a culture where launching views of bail decisions is discouraged. He asks: | |
| Is applying for a review at the DPP something that is discouraged by the DPP ... unless there are very strong grounds? | |
| The solicitor answers: | |
| A recommendation to review is not discouraged in any way. My experience has always been that the director is always very interested in hearing from his officers as to recommendations, and their views to matters. | |
| Gormly goes in another way: | |
| Would you agree that there is a culture among DPP officers that makes the seeking of a review unusual? | |
| The solicitor says they can only speak for their office, and “I would reject that for the people that I work with”. | |
| 2.52pm AEST05:52 | 2.52pm AEST05:52 |
| Gormly is asking when the solicitor destroyed his hand-written notes from the Monis matter - is there any chance it was destroyed after the siege in December 2014? | Gormly is asking when the solicitor destroyed his hand-written notes from the Monis matter - is there any chance it was destroyed after the siege in December 2014? |
| Now the solicitor raises his voice and enunciates very clearly. “Absolutely without a doubt before the siege,” they say. | Now the solicitor raises his voice and enunciates very clearly. “Absolutely without a doubt before the siege,” they say. |
| 2.29pm AEST05:29 | 2.29pm AEST05:29 |
| The DPP solicitor - who, again, we cannot name - has returned to the box, still answering questions from David Buchanan SC, the barrister for the DPP. We’re going over some of the aspersions that have been cast against the solicitor in the past few days. | The DPP solicitor - who, again, we cannot name - has returned to the box, still answering questions from David Buchanan SC, the barrister for the DPP. We’re going over some of the aspersions that have been cast against the solicitor in the past few days. |
| Gormly has returned to this issue of why the solicitor declined to prepare written submissions, in response to Monis’ lawyer’s 30-page file arguing for his client to be granted bail. | Gormly has returned to this issue of why the solicitor declined to prepare written submissions, in response to Monis’ lawyer’s 30-page file arguing for his client to be granted bail. |
| Gormly: | Gormly: |
| Is it not the case that whatever you might say about the interplay with his honour, you were dealing a bench that was informed by 30 pages of detailed, well-crafted written submissions. | Is it not the case that whatever you might say about the interplay with his honour, you were dealing a bench that was informed by 30 pages of detailed, well-crafted written submissions. |
| The solicitor: | The solicitor: |
| Yes. | Yes. |
| Gormly: | Gormly: |
| You did not have any written submissions at all, did you? | You did not have any written submissions at all, did you? |
| The solicitor: | The solicitor: |
| No, I didn’t. | No, I didn’t. |
| Updated at 2.35pm AEST | Updated at 2.35pm AEST |
| 1.30pm AEST04:30 | 1.30pm AEST04:30 |
| While the lawyers eat their lunch, let’s recap an interesting morning: | While the lawyers eat their lunch, let’s recap an interesting morning: |
| We’re back at 2pm. | We’re back at 2pm. |
| Updated at 1.38pm AEST | Updated at 1.38pm AEST |
| 1.00pm AEST04:00 | 1.00pm AEST04:00 |
| The other issue that’s been raised repeatedly is whether the DPP solicitor cited the correct bail precedent in opposing Monis’ bail. The solicitor told the magistrate the law was neutral on whether Monis should be granted bail. But we’ve heard in recent days that actually he needed to prove “exceptional circumstances” in order to be bailed. | The other issue that’s been raised repeatedly is whether the DPP solicitor cited the correct bail precedent in opposing Monis’ bail. The solicitor told the magistrate the law was neutral on whether Monis should be granted bail. But we’ve heard in recent days that actually he needed to prove “exceptional circumstances” in order to be bailed. |
| The solicitor says the threshold for bail in this case was irrelevant, however. | The solicitor says the threshold for bail in this case was irrelevant, however. |
| “Even if an exceptional circumstances test could be applied to the evidence in the case of Mr Monis, that test would have been met,” they say. They cites reasons I cannot report, unfortunately, due to a suppression order. | “Even if an exceptional circumstances test could be applied to the evidence in the case of Mr Monis, that test would have been met,” they say. They cites reasons I cannot report, unfortunately, due to a suppression order. |
| 12.41pm AEST03:41 | 12.41pm AEST03:41 |
| One of the apparent errors this solicitor made was destroying their files pertaining to the Monis case in November 2014. | One of the apparent errors this solicitor made was destroying their files pertaining to the Monis case in November 2014. |
| “I needed some more shelf space, I was doing some spring cleaning,” they say. It had been nearly a year since Monis’s bail hearing on the accessory to murder charge. “It was one of those things that it was time to now cull, and move on, and make some space,” they say. | “I needed some more shelf space, I was doing some spring cleaning,” they say. It had been nearly a year since Monis’s bail hearing on the accessory to murder charge. “It was one of those things that it was time to now cull, and move on, and make some space,” they say. |
| Files are routinely “culled”, they say. They held on to these documents for so long because they felt a bail review might one day be requested by the police. Their reaction to the news Monis had been bailed was “anger, disappointment, upset”, they say. | Files are routinely “culled”, they say. They held on to these documents for so long because they felt a bail review might one day be requested by the police. Their reaction to the news Monis had been bailed was “anger, disappointment, upset”, they say. |
| Updated at 1.59pm AEST | Updated at 1.59pm AEST |
| 12.28pm AEST03:28 | 12.28pm AEST03:28 |
| Back in the box is the DPP solicitor (identity suppressed) who handled Monis’s December 2013 bail application. After taking a hiding in the past days, they’re finally being examined by the DPP’s barrister and getting a chance to explain themselves. | Back in the box is the DPP solicitor (identity suppressed) who handled Monis’s December 2013 bail application. After taking a hiding in the past days, they’re finally being examined by the DPP’s barrister and getting a chance to explain themselves. |
| Updated at 12.54pm AEST | Updated at 12.54pm AEST |
| 11.34am AEST02:34 | 11.34am AEST02:34 |
| Phew, that was a busy hour. A short intermission now. It’s expected the inquest will resume with a DPP solicitor (name suppressed) in the witness box. They ran Monis’ December 2013 bail hearing and have been answering claims they were insufficiently prepared for the hearing and failed to present key evidence that might have seen Monis jailed. | Phew, that was a busy hour. A short intermission now. It’s expected the inquest will resume with a DPP solicitor (name suppressed) in the witness box. They ran Monis’ December 2013 bail hearing and have been answering claims they were insufficiently prepared for the hearing and failed to present key evidence that might have seen Monis jailed. |
| 11.28am AEST02:28 | 11.28am AEST02:28 |
| Gormly puts to Hoffman assumptions that Monis exhibited “mixed behaviours” in the cafe – apparently arranging for food, being considerate of older hostages, facilitating toilet breaks and not carrying out threats of violence until the very end “when it must have been apparent that things would not go as he was endeavouring to negotiate them to occur”. Does that change Hoffman’s view it was a terrorist attack? | Gormly puts to Hoffman assumptions that Monis exhibited “mixed behaviours” in the cafe – apparently arranging for food, being considerate of older hostages, facilitating toilet breaks and not carrying out threats of violence until the very end “when it must have been apparent that things would not go as he was endeavouring to negotiate them to occur”. Does that change Hoffman’s view it was a terrorist attack? |
| “Not in the slightest,” Hoffman says, pointing out that treating the hostages decently some of the time actually played into Monis’s motives, as far as keeping them docile and hysteria under control. He may have even been trying to induce a kind of Stockholm syndrome, Hoffman says. | “Not in the slightest,” Hoffman says, pointing out that treating the hostages decently some of the time actually played into Monis’s motives, as far as keeping them docile and hysteria under control. He may have even been trying to induce a kind of Stockholm syndrome, Hoffman says. |
| What about the fact it was apparently “recently planned event, poorly planned event, and that the motives for the event were mixed and were changed along the way?” Gormly asks. | What about the fact it was apparently “recently planned event, poorly planned event, and that the motives for the event were mixed and were changed along the way?” Gormly asks. |
| The only change that would have mattered is if he had let the hostages go, Hoffman replies. | The only change that would have mattered is if he had let the hostages go, Hoffman replies. |
| Updated at 11.55am AEST | Updated at 11.55am AEST |
| 11.14am AEST02:14 | 11.14am AEST02:14 |
| Hoffman’s larger point is that in most cases we will never know a perpetrators’ motivations — “Why has someone become a terrorist is the holy grail we continue to search for,” he says, and so we ought to confine our criteria to the act, instead of the motivation. | Hoffman’s larger point is that in most cases we will never know a perpetrators’ motivations — “Why has someone become a terrorist is the holy grail we continue to search for,” he says, and so we ought to confine our criteria to the act, instead of the motivation. |
| We’re going to be hearing from a psychologist who specialises in radicalisation later on Tuesday, so we will get some insight into Monis’s mental state, and perhaps his motivations too. | We’re going to be hearing from a psychologist who specialises in radicalisation later on Tuesday, so we will get some insight into Monis’s mental state, and perhaps his motivations too. |
| Updated at 11.55am AEST | Updated at 11.55am AEST |
| 11.05am AEST02:05 | 11.05am AEST02:05 |
| Though Monis had no contact with anybody from Isis, Hoffman argues that he was responding to a September 2014 “call to violence” by Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, a senior Isis leader. Here’s what Adnani said in September: | Though Monis had no contact with anybody from Isis, Hoffman argues that he was responding to a September 2014 “call to violence” by Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, a senior Isis leader. Here’s what Adnani said in September: |
| If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be. | If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be. |
| Do not ask for anyone’s advice and do not seek anyone’s verdict. Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military, for they have the same ruling. Both of them are disbelievers. | Do not ask for anyone’s advice and do not seek anyone’s verdict. Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military, for they have the same ruling. Both of them are disbelievers. |
| Of course, somewhat opportunistically, Isis later claimed Monis’ act in its propaganda magazine, Dabiq, as an example of the sort of violence it had called for. | Of course, somewhat opportunistically, Isis later claimed Monis’ act in its propaganda magazine, Dabiq, as an example of the sort of violence it had called for. |
| 11.01am AEST02:01 | 11.01am AEST02:01 |
| This, from our rolling coverage of the first day of this round of hearings, sums up the evidence of Shanahan, who disagreed with Hoffman. | This, from our rolling coverage of the first day of this round of hearings, sums up the evidence of Shanahan, who disagreed with Hoffman. |
| Rodger Shanahan, from the Lowy Institute, has argued that Monis’ actions were “different from [past] Islamic-inspired terrorist attacks”. Namely because Monis had no communication with anyone in Isis, carried a generic Islamic flag, and wore a headband more associated with Shia Islam than Isis, who consider Shia Muslims to be heretics. He concluded Monis was “not motivated by political, ideological or religious causes, but rather was someone with mental health issues acting on his own personal grudges”. | Rodger Shanahan, from the Lowy Institute, has argued that Monis’ actions were “different from [past] Islamic-inspired terrorist attacks”. Namely because Monis had no communication with anyone in Isis, carried a generic Islamic flag, and wore a headband more associated with Shia Islam than Isis, who consider Shia Muslims to be heretics. He concluded Monis was “not motivated by political, ideological or religious causes, but rather was someone with mental health issues acting on his own personal grudges”. |
| Both he and Jones have submitted reports to the inquest which I’ll endeavour to get my hands on. | Both he and Jones have submitted reports to the inquest which I’ll endeavour to get my hands on. |
| Updated at 11.01am AEST | Updated at 11.01am AEST |
| 10.52am AEST01:52 | 10.52am AEST01:52 |
| Gormly is pushing back a little here. Two other experts consulted by the inquest, Clarke Jones and Rodger Shanahan, disagreed that Monis was a terrorist. | Gormly is pushing back a little here. Two other experts consulted by the inquest, Clarke Jones and Rodger Shanahan, disagreed that Monis was a terrorist. |
| Why the difference? Gormly says it hinges on whether you think Monis was genuinely politically motivated (making him a terrorist), or a narcissist acting out some personal grudge. | Why the difference? Gormly says it hinges on whether you think Monis was genuinely politically motivated (making him a terrorist), or a narcissist acting out some personal grudge. |
| Hoffman says that “until we can peer into mens’ souls, we have no idea what motivated them”. In the absence of that, “you have to look at the act, which I have no doubt was a terrorist attack”, he says. | Hoffman says that “until we can peer into mens’ souls, we have no idea what motivated them”. In the absence of that, “you have to look at the act, which I have no doubt was a terrorist attack”, he says. |
| 10.47am AEST01:47 | 10.47am AEST01:47 |
| What about the fact that Monis exhibited “narcissism to a pathological extent and other evidence of mental ill-health”? Does that change his view of whether Monis committed a terrorist attack? | What about the fact that Monis exhibited “narcissism to a pathological extent and other evidence of mental ill-health”? Does that change his view of whether Monis committed a terrorist attack? |
| “Not in the least,” Hoffman says. “In fact I think it was immaterial. A terrorist can be someone who has profound mental disorders.” | “Not in the least,” Hoffman says. “In fact I think it was immaterial. A terrorist can be someone who has profound mental disorders.” |
| He raises the case of Ted Kacyznski, otherwise known as the Unabomber, who also exhibited evidence of mental illnesses, but is widely agreed to be a terrorist. | He raises the case of Ted Kacyznski, otherwise known as the Unabomber, who also exhibited evidence of mental illnesses, but is widely agreed to be a terrorist. |
| Updated at 10.54am AEST | Updated at 10.54am AEST |
| 10.45am AEST01:45 | 10.45am AEST01:45 |
| So, was Monis a terrorist? | So, was Monis a terrorist? |
| Here’s Hoffman: | Here’s Hoffman: |
| It in essence conforms to at least the definition that I’ve used for terrorism that I’ve used for longer than 20 years ... First, that it’s political in its aims and motivations. And from the evidence I was provided I believe and concluded that Mr Monis did have a political motive. | It in essence conforms to at least the definition that I’ve used for terrorism that I’ve used for longer than 20 years ... First, that it’s political in its aims and motivations. And from the evidence I was provided I believe and concluded that Mr Monis did have a political motive. |
| From the choice of the Lindt Cafe, across the street from the Channel Seven news headquarters, which at least in my reading of his path to radicalisation was pivotal development ... It wasn’t a personal grievance but it seemed to be a wider grievance that went beyond himself. | From the choice of the Lindt Cafe, across the street from the Channel Seven news headquarters, which at least in my reading of his path to radicalisation was pivotal development ... It wasn’t a personal grievance but it seemed to be a wider grievance that went beyond himself. |
| Second that it was violent, which is a key element of terrorism. | Second that it was violent, which is a key element of terrorism. |
| I would argue thirdly it was designed to have far-reaching psychological repercussions beyond the immediate victims. He was constantly berating or cajoling or instructing the victims to broadcast his messages. He wanted to reach a much wider target audience, which is also a key element of terrorism. | I would argue thirdly it was designed to have far-reaching psychological repercussions beyond the immediate victims. He was constantly berating or cajoling or instructing the victims to broadcast his messages. He wanted to reach a much wider target audience, which is also a key element of terrorism. |
| It was conducted at least on behalf of an organisation, at least on the inspiration of an organisation, which he said himself by affiliating himself with IS, requested an IS flag. | It was conducted at least on behalf of an organisation, at least on the inspiration of an organisation, which he said himself by affiliating himself with IS, requested an IS flag. |
| That’s the fifth element, that there has to be some sub-national group or non-state entity, that we might call a terror group, that is at least in some way behind this, that provides the context for this violence ... That in the perpetrator’s mind he was serving the purposes of this organisation. | That’s the fifth element, that there has to be some sub-national group or non-state entity, that we might call a terror group, that is at least in some way behind this, that provides the context for this violence ... That in the perpetrator’s mind he was serving the purposes of this organisation. |
| In my view the Lindt Cafe siege clearly conforms to that criteria ... In this expert’s view it was overwhelming that it was terrorism. | In my view the Lindt Cafe siege clearly conforms to that criteria ... In this expert’s view it was overwhelming that it was terrorism. |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| Lone wolves key to Isis strategy | Lone wolves key to Isis strategy |
| Inspiring lone wolf attacks is key to Isis’ strategy, Hoffman says: “To inspire, activate, animate individuals to engage in violence, to respond to its clarion call to violence.” | Inspiring lone wolf attacks is key to Isis’ strategy, Hoffman says: “To inspire, activate, animate individuals to engage in violence, to respond to its clarion call to violence.” |
| “Even if it will not know who those individuals are?” Gormly asks. | “Even if it will not know who those individuals are?” Gormly asks. |
| Exactly. This is a deliberate strategy by the group, pursued on a much wider scale than we’ve seen in the past, mainly through social media. | Exactly. This is a deliberate strategy by the group, pursued on a much wider scale than we’ve seen in the past, mainly through social media. |
| It’s “a strategy of overwhelming those governments why a myriad or a plethora of threats”, he says. | It’s “a strategy of overwhelming those governments why a myriad or a plethora of threats”, he says. |
| Law enforcement and intelligence will be so overwhelmed by this low-hanging fruit, that in their preoccupation with this panoply of local threats they may be distracted or ignore or may not see a much greater threat coming from the organisation as well. | Law enforcement and intelligence will be so overwhelmed by this low-hanging fruit, that in their preoccupation with this panoply of local threats they may be distracted or ignore or may not see a much greater threat coming from the organisation as well. |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| What really marks Isis is this big-tent approach it takes, Hoffman says. | What really marks Isis is this big-tent approach it takes, Hoffman says. |
| Adventurers, the devoute, recent converts, those with a deep knowledge of Islam and those without - “all types are basically welcome,” he says. | Adventurers, the devoute, recent converts, those with a deep knowledge of Islam and those without - “all types are basically welcome,” he says. |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| Gormly is asking about when it became known that Isis was reaching into the West to find recruits. Hoffman says it was “about July 2014” when its social media efforts (“unprecedented by any terrorist organisation”) begun to be noticed. | Gormly is asking about when it became known that Isis was reaching into the West to find recruits. Hoffman says it was “about July 2014” when its social media efforts (“unprecedented by any terrorist organisation”) begun to be noticed. |
| What is their appeal to potential recruits? “I would sum it up in a word,” Hoffman says. Actually he uses four: “It’s a sense of empowerment.” | What is their appeal to potential recruits? “I would sum it up in a word,” Hoffman says. Actually he uses four: “It’s a sense of empowerment.” |
| “What is the problem that is being perceived to which IS is an answer?” Gormly asks. | “What is the problem that is being perceived to which IS is an answer?” Gormly asks. |
| “At least in their propaganda, it’s striking a blow against a predatory Western system of states that is victimising Muslims,” Hoffman says. | “At least in their propaganda, it’s striking a blow against a predatory Western system of states that is victimising Muslims,” Hoffman says. |
| Is that same sense of disempowerment also felt within Muslim communities in the west? | Is that same sense of disempowerment also felt within Muslim communities in the west? |
| “I would not say by the majority of those communities but there are certainly elements of those communities in the west who feel they are strangers in the countries they’ve been born into, that they’re discriminated against,” he says. | “I would not say by the majority of those communities but there are certainly elements of those communities in the west who feel they are strangers in the countries they’ve been born into, that they’re discriminated against,” he says. |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| "Whoever is radicalised is welcome" | "Whoever is radicalised is welcome" |
| Hoffman is advising on the differences between al-Qaeda and Isis. “In my view ideologically there’s very little difference,” he says. | Hoffman is advising on the differences between al-Qaeda and Isis. “In my view ideologically there’s very little difference,” he says. |
| Where they differ is in their goals. Al-Qaeda saw re-establishing a caliphate (a government run on traditional Islamic law) as a far-off aspiration. | Where they differ is in their goals. Al-Qaeda saw re-establishing a caliphate (a government run on traditional Islamic law) as a far-off aspiration. |
| The leader of Isis, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, asked, “Why wait?” | The leader of Isis, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, asked, “Why wait?” |
| His thinking was, “if we can seize territory, if we can turn thought into action, this will be the most important means of rallying Muslim support through the world, throughout the region, behind us,” Hoffman says. | His thinking was, “if we can seize territory, if we can turn thought into action, this will be the most important means of rallying Muslim support through the world, throughout the region, behind us,” Hoffman says. |
| Al-Qaeda is also much more selective about who it recruited. Isis has a “big-tent” philosophy. “Whoever is radicalised is welcome,” he says. | Al-Qaeda is also much more selective about who it recruited. Isis has a “big-tent” philosophy. “Whoever is radicalised is welcome,” he says. |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| Day seven of this round of public hearings into the Sydney siege kicks off this morning. We’re expecting to hear from Prof Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert from Georgetown university, who will help answer the complex question of whether Man Haron Monis’s siege of the Lindt Cafe can be considered a terrorist attack. | Day seven of this round of public hearings into the Sydney siege kicks off this morning. We’re expecting to hear from Prof Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert from Georgetown university, who will help answer the complex question of whether Man Haron Monis’s siege of the Lindt Cafe can be considered a terrorist attack. |
| He’s up shortly. | He’s up shortly. |
| In the meantime, catch up on our coverage of Monday’s evidence: | In the meantime, catch up on our coverage of Monday’s evidence: |
| Updated at 12.04pm AEST | Updated at 12.04pm AEST |
| 10.35am AEST01:35 | 10.35am AEST01:35 |
| Hoffman joins the inquest via video link from Washington DC. We’re being read a list of his accomplishments, including being one of two non-government specialists to advise the 9/11 commission and a special adviser to the coalition provision authority that briefly ran Iraq after the 2003 invasion. | Hoffman joins the inquest via video link from Washington DC. We’re being read a list of his accomplishments, including being one of two non-government specialists to advise the 9/11 commission and a special adviser to the coalition provision authority that briefly ran Iraq after the 2003 invasion. |
| Updated at 12.07pm AEST | Updated at 12.07pm AEST |