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You can find the current article at its original source at http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2015/oct/22/mps-to-debate-english-votes-for-english-laws-plans-politics-live
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| Version 15 | Version 16 |
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| MPs pass English votes for English Laws plans – politics live | MPs pass English votes for English Laws plans – politics live |
| (3 months later) | |
| 5.35pm BST | |
| 17:35 | |
| Afternoon summary | Afternoon summary |
| That’s all from me for today. Andrew Sparrow will be back anchoring the politics live blog on Monday. Thanks for all your comments. | That’s all from me for today. Andrew Sparrow will be back anchoring the politics live blog on Monday. Thanks for all your comments. |
| 5.16pm BST | |
| 17:16 | |
| Labour’s Chris Bryant asks the Speaker whether he will be making a statement on Monday about the new procedures. John Bercow says that it is “not immediately obvious to me that it is so urgent as to require a statement on Monday”. He says it may be what the speaker’s office calls UIMM – “urgent in mind of member”. | Labour’s Chris Bryant asks the Speaker whether he will be making a statement on Monday about the new procedures. John Bercow says that it is “not immediately obvious to me that it is so urgent as to require a statement on Monday”. He says it may be what the speaker’s office calls UIMM – “urgent in mind of member”. |
| The SNP’s Pete Wishart asks the Speaker whether there will be written guidance to MPs on the new EVEL rules. He says there are number of bills coming up in the near future to which the new rules will apply. Bercow says he will provide guidance where necessary. | The SNP’s Pete Wishart asks the Speaker whether there will be written guidance to MPs on the new EVEL rules. He says there are number of bills coming up in the near future to which the new rules will apply. Bercow says he will provide guidance where necessary. |
| Chris Grayling says that the clerks in the House of Commons have been doing “extensive work” to prepare for the possibility of the motion passing. | Chris Grayling says that the clerks in the House of Commons have been doing “extensive work” to prepare for the possibility of the motion passing. |
| 4.56pm BST | |
| 16:56 | |
| MPs vote for EVEL plans | MPs vote for EVEL plans |
| MPs vote 312 to 270 in favour of EVEL plans. | MPs vote 312 to 270 in favour of EVEL plans. |
| History made today. For first time ever parliament restricts rights of Scottish MPs to represent their electors. Tories win 312 to 270 #EVEL | History made today. For first time ever parliament restricts rights of Scottish MPs to represent their electors. Tories win 312 to 270 #EVEL |
| 312 Yes, 270 No #EVEL So much for being an equal partner in a family of nations. Some nations are more equal than other it would seem.... | 312 Yes, 270 No #EVEL So much for being an equal partner in a family of nations. Some nations are more equal than other it would seem.... |
| #EVEL will out: 312 votes to 270 Just have to figure out what that means. Ah a handy graphic... pic.twitter.com/lPgh8JbRJ5 | #EVEL will out: 312 votes to 270 Just have to figure out what that means. Ah a handy graphic... pic.twitter.com/lPgh8JbRJ5 |
| Updated | |
| at 5.02pm BST | |
| 4.50pm BST | |
| 16:50 | |
| A Labour amendment suggesting English MPs be given the chance to debate and suggest revisions, rather than block legislation entirely, has been rejected by MPs by 312 votes to 269. | A Labour amendment suggesting English MPs be given the chance to debate and suggest revisions, rather than block legislation entirely, has been rejected by MPs by 312 votes to 269. |
| MPs are now voting on the main motion. | MPs are now voting on the main motion. |
| 4.09pm BST | |
| 16:09 | |
| MPs are now voting on a series of amendments to the EVEL plans and the motion as a whole. It may take a while to get a clear result. In the meantime, here’s the Guardian’s Politics Weekly podcast to keep you busy. | MPs are now voting on a series of amendments to the EVEL plans and the motion as a whole. It may take a while to get a clear result. In the meantime, here’s the Guardian’s Politics Weekly podcast to keep you busy. |
| Related: Politics Weekly podcast: tax credits, China and Suffragette | Related: Politics Weekly podcast: tax credits, China and Suffragette |
| 3.59pm BST | |
| 15:59 | |
| Kate Devlin, Westminster correspondent at The Herald, says Tory rebels may have been pulled back into line – | Kate Devlin, Westminster correspondent at The Herald, says Tory rebels may have been pulled back into line – |
| Labour sources say they believe Tories will win #evel vote after a number of Tory rebels suggest they will back the government | Labour sources say they believe Tories will win #evel vote after a number of Tory rebels suggest they will back the government |
| 3.53pm BST | |
| 15:53 | |
| The shadow leader of the house of commons tweets – | The shadow leader of the house of commons tweets – |
| EVEL debate has been profoundly bitter. I fear this will put a worm of grievance in people's heart. It's a charter for breaking the Union. | EVEL debate has been profoundly bitter. I fear this will put a worm of grievance in people's heart. It's a charter for breaking the Union. |
| 3.52pm BST | |
| 15:52 | |
| Chris Davies, Conservative MP for Brecon, says: “what is fair about this bill?” He says that he is a Welsh MP in a constituency bordering England and has constituents whose children who go to school across the border. His wife goes across the border to work in Hereford hospital and treats his constituency on a daily basis, he says. | Chris Davies, Conservative MP for Brecon, says: “what is fair about this bill?” He says that he is a Welsh MP in a constituency bordering England and has constituents whose children who go to school across the border. His wife goes across the border to work in Hereford hospital and treats his constituency on a daily basis, he says. |
| Davies says he will have to tell his constituents: “This does affect you, but sorry the house says it does not relate to us, so there’s nothing I can do.” | Davies says he will have to tell his constituents: “This does affect you, but sorry the house says it does not relate to us, so there’s nothing I can do.” |
| Labour MP Wes Streeting interjects to correct Davies that the proposals are not contained in ‘a bill’ and that if it were MPs would be able to go through it and work out the complexities. | Labour MP Wes Streeting interjects to correct Davies that the proposals are not contained in ‘a bill’ and that if it were MPs would be able to go through it and work out the complexities. |
| Davies says he cannot fault the principle of the proposals, but that he is being asked to vote to “turn down” his voice and the voices of his constituents in Westminster. He urges his colleagues “not to vote on this for political reasons, but because it’s the right thing to do. I believe that this bill is a start, but it is by no means the end of this debate.” | Davies says he cannot fault the principle of the proposals, but that he is being asked to vote to “turn down” his voice and the voices of his constituents in Westminster. He urges his colleagues “not to vote on this for political reasons, but because it’s the right thing to do. I believe that this bill is a start, but it is by no means the end of this debate.” |
| I’m not sure if that means he’s voting for or against. | I’m not sure if that means he’s voting for or against. |
| 3.26pm BST | |
| 15:26 | |
| Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says that the “price of the union” for England is asymmetrical devolution and that “by virtue of being over 80% of the population and the richest part of the union” England cannot be afforded the same level of devolution as it would “overwhelm” the other parts of the UK. He says he therefore appreciates the proposals because of their “modesty”. | Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says that the “price of the union” for England is asymmetrical devolution and that “by virtue of being over 80% of the population and the richest part of the union” England cannot be afforded the same level of devolution as it would “overwhelm” the other parts of the UK. He says he therefore appreciates the proposals because of their “modesty”. |
| Updated | |
| at 3.27pm BST | |
| 3.18pm BST | |
| 15:18 | |
| Back to the debate currently going on in the commons – Alistair Carmichael, a Liberal Democrat MP, says that the government would do well to listen to Conservative peers in the Lords, some of whom expressed doubts about the EVEL plans yesterday. | Back to the debate currently going on in the commons – Alistair Carmichael, a Liberal Democrat MP, says that the government would do well to listen to Conservative peers in the Lords, some of whom expressed doubts about the EVEL plans yesterday. |
| He quotes Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who said: | He quotes Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who said: |
| I really do think that constitutional change should carry consensus. If we proceed on the basis that we think it would be a good wheeze to make a constitutional change or that it might advantage one party or another, then other parties will do the same when they are in power. As a result, people will lose faith in the integrity of the institution and it will be greatly damaged. | I really do think that constitutional change should carry consensus. If we proceed on the basis that we think it would be a good wheeze to make a constitutional change or that it might advantage one party or another, then other parties will do the same when they are in power. As a result, people will lose faith in the integrity of the institution and it will be greatly damaged. |
| He says its the first time he’s quoted Lord Forsyth with approval, but “these are clearly extraordinary times”. | He says its the first time he’s quoted Lord Forsyth with approval, but “these are clearly extraordinary times”. |
| Updated | |
| at 3.18pm BST | |
| 3.01pm BST | |
| 15:01 | |
| Danny Alexander in running for China bank role | Danny Alexander in running for China bank role |
| Bloomberg is reporting that former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, is in the running join China’s Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. According to “two people familiar with the appointment process”, the government is considering putting Alexander forward for one of a small number of non-Asian seats on the development bank’s board. Alexander, who is 43, was rewarded for his time working in the coalition with a knighthood in the dissolution honours list. | Bloomberg is reporting that former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, is in the running join China’s Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. According to “two people familiar with the appointment process”, the government is considering putting Alexander forward for one of a small number of non-Asian seats on the development bank’s board. Alexander, who is 43, was rewarded for his time working in the coalition with a knighthood in the dissolution honours list. |
| Updated | |
| at 3.09pm BST | |
| 2.13pm BST | |
| 14:13 | |
| Lunchtime summary | Lunchtime summary |
| Updated | |
| at 2.14pm BST | |
| 1.58pm BST | |
| 13:58 | |
| Tempers in the chamber are getting a bit frayed. Labour MP Graham Allen intervenes in Wishart’s speech to say: “The honourable gentleman is posing as a second class member of parliament but he is getting a first class allocation of time.” | Tempers in the chamber are getting a bit frayed. Labour MP Graham Allen intervenes in Wishart’s speech to say: “The honourable gentleman is posing as a second class member of parliament but he is getting a first class allocation of time.” |
| Pete Wishart responds: | Pete Wishart responds: |
| Can I say ever so gently to the honourable gentleman, this is being done to us... and it’s taken a hour and a half and six speeches before it comes to a Scottish member of parliament, so we will take our time and I won’t be rushing for the honourable gentleman. | Can I say ever so gently to the honourable gentleman, this is being done to us... and it’s taken a hour and a half and six speeches before it comes to a Scottish member of parliament, so we will take our time and I won’t be rushing for the honourable gentleman. |
| 1.52pm BST | |
| 13:52 | |
| Labour MP David Hanson says that Campbell-Bannerman, Asquith, Lloyd George, Brown, Callaghan, Gladstone and Churchill, all served as prime minister of the United Kingdom while representing a constituency in Scotland or Wales. Could this ever happen again?, he asks. | Labour MP David Hanson says that Campbell-Bannerman, Asquith, Lloyd George, Brown, Callaghan, Gladstone and Churchill, all served as prime minister of the United Kingdom while representing a constituency in Scotland or Wales. Could this ever happen again?, he asks. |
| The SNP’s Pete Wishart says: | The SNP’s Pete Wishart says: |
| I don’t. I have to say quite candidly to the honourable gentlemen. It would be absurd for a Scottish member of parliament to be a secretary of state for health and education when he would be debarred from full voting entitlements when it comes to getting legislation through the house... I don’t think there’ll ever be a Scottish prime minister. | I don’t. I have to say quite candidly to the honourable gentlemen. It would be absurd for a Scottish member of parliament to be a secretary of state for health and education when he would be debarred from full voting entitlements when it comes to getting legislation through the house... I don’t think there’ll ever be a Scottish prime minister. |
| 1.42pm BST | |
| 13:42 | |
| Father of the House Sir Gerald Kaufman describes #evel debate as "one of the nastiest, most unpleasant debates I have attended in 45 yrs" | Father of the House Sir Gerald Kaufman describes #evel debate as "one of the nastiest, most unpleasant debates I have attended in 45 yrs" |
| Tory Bernard Jenkin says "in danger of putting Speaker in impossible position" on #evel and "we are inviting" poss judicial review | Tory Bernard Jenkin says "in danger of putting Speaker in impossible position" on #evel and "we are inviting" poss judicial review |
| SNP MP Pete Wishart says the govt's Evel plans are "meagre, threadbare, inept and stupid" | SNP MP Pete Wishart says the govt's Evel plans are "meagre, threadbare, inept and stupid" |
| 1.37pm BST | |
| 13:37 | |
| Chris Grayling intervenes to say that the top up fees bill in 2004 would not have been passed if it wasn’t for Scottish MPs. Bryant insists it wouldn’t. He says it passed very easily at earlier stages and that the EVEL proposals don’t cover second and third reading, so wouldn’t have made any difference to the outcome. | Chris Grayling intervenes to say that the top up fees bill in 2004 would not have been passed if it wasn’t for Scottish MPs. Bryant insists it wouldn’t. He says it passed very easily at earlier stages and that the EVEL proposals don’t cover second and third reading, so wouldn’t have made any difference to the outcome. |
| Bryant says that this isn’t a move towards devolution, it simply retains power here in Westminster. There should be line-by-line consideration of relevant legislation by an England only committee, he says. “There should be a voice, so not a veto,” says Bryant. | Bryant says that this isn’t a move towards devolution, it simply retains power here in Westminster. There should be line-by-line consideration of relevant legislation by an England only committee, he says. “There should be a voice, so not a veto,” says Bryant. |
| This is the biggest constitutional change for quite some time... and it is being introduced without a constitutional convention... | This is the biggest constitutional change for quite some time... and it is being introduced without a constitutional convention... |
| It’s a bureaucratic nightmare and I think the honourable members will regret it... it’s as if the prime minister has decided to fashion a new grievance for Scotland and god knows they’ve never needed a new grievance, because he wanted to antagonise them... | It’s a bureaucratic nightmare and I think the honourable members will regret it... it’s as if the prime minister has decided to fashion a new grievance for Scotland and god knows they’ve never needed a new grievance, because he wanted to antagonise them... |
| Conservative and Unionist members will, in the end, rue the day if they vote for these measures because this is a charter for breaking up the union, not for keeping it together. | Conservative and Unionist members will, in the end, rue the day if they vote for these measures because this is a charter for breaking up the union, not for keeping it together. |
| Updated | |
| at 1.39pm BST | |
| 1.29pm BST | |
| 13:29 | |
| The measures will not deliver the government’s aim, says Bryant. He points to this research from the house of commons library, which we mentioned earlier. | The measures will not deliver the government’s aim, says Bryant. He points to this research from the house of commons library, which we mentioned earlier. |
| Bryant says that the higher education bill in 2004 would not have been effected by these measures. Some MPs have claimed in debates that that bill (which introduced £3,000 tuition fees) would not have passed its second reading if it wasn’t for Scottish Labour MPs voting for it. | Bryant says that the higher education bill in 2004 would not have been effected by these measures. Some MPs have claimed in debates that that bill (which introduced £3,000 tuition fees) would not have passed its second reading if it wasn’t for Scottish Labour MPs voting for it. |
| “That vote would not have been changed by these proposals, would it? He need only nod,” he says to Grayling. Grayling shakes his head and says “it would have”. “No because it was at second reading and second reading isn’t covered, a point he’s made several times. He doesn’t understand his own provisions that he’s bringing forward this afternoon.” | “That vote would not have been changed by these proposals, would it? He need only nod,” he says to Grayling. Grayling shakes his head and says “it would have”. “No because it was at second reading and second reading isn’t covered, a point he’s made several times. He doesn’t understand his own provisions that he’s bringing forward this afternoon.” |
| Updated | |
| at 1.30pm BST | |
| 1.19pm BST | |
| 13:19 | |
| Bryant says that Grayling chose not to go into any detail on what exactly his proposals entail because they are so incredibly complicated. | Bryant says that Grayling chose not to go into any detail on what exactly his proposals entail because they are so incredibly complicated. |
| This is a dangerous road to go down because it will set a worm of grievance into the hearts of many. | This is a dangerous road to go down because it will set a worm of grievance into the hearts of many. |
| He says that the measures will politicise the speaker and will open up his judgement to being questioned in a court of law. | He says that the measures will politicise the speaker and will open up his judgement to being questioned in a court of law. |
| 1.11pm BST | |
| 13:11 | |
| Chris Bryant: | Chris Bryant: |
| Because our constitution is unwritten we shouldn’t enter into major constitutional change unadvisedly or lightly, but – in the words of the prayer book – discretely, advisedly and soberly. That means the government of the day should, where it possibly can, proceed on a cross-party basis and, where it cannot do so, and especially where one party alone holds a view, it should proceed with extreme caution. | Because our constitution is unwritten we shouldn’t enter into major constitutional change unadvisedly or lightly, but – in the words of the prayer book – discretely, advisedly and soberly. That means the government of the day should, where it possibly can, proceed on a cross-party basis and, where it cannot do so, and especially where one party alone holds a view, it should proceed with extreme caution. |
| Updated | |
| at 1.14pm BST | |
| 1.03pm BST | |
| 13:03 | |
| Shadow leader of the house of commons, Chris Bryant, says that he passionately supports the union, but also supports devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. | Shadow leader of the house of commons, Chris Bryant, says that he passionately supports the union, but also supports devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. |
| I believe that England should have a clear and distinctive voice in this parliament. For that matter, I also believe that power, responsibility and finance should be devolved further within England because we are, and have been for far too long, a very centralised state. | I believe that England should have a clear and distinctive voice in this parliament. For that matter, I also believe that power, responsibility and finance should be devolved further within England because we are, and have been for far too long, a very centralised state. |
| All MPs are equal...I believe that overturning that equality of all members that has withstood an 800 year test is a big step to take. | All MPs are equal...I believe that overturning that equality of all members that has withstood an 800 year test is a big step to take. |
| Updated | |
| at 1.04pm BST | |
| 12.57pm BST | |
| 12:57 | |
| The public is on our side on this issue, says Grayling. He says that the fact that the Conservatives are in government demonstrates that they are more in touch with public opinion than the opposition. Chris Grayling concludes: | The public is on our side on this issue, says Grayling. He says that the fact that the Conservatives are in government demonstrates that they are more in touch with public opinion than the opposition. Chris Grayling concludes: |
| We are going to hear much this afternoon about how this will create a different class of MPs...the truth is Madam Deputy Speaker, is that this is actually nonsense. Despite all the rhetoric our proposals do none of that. They bring fairness to our devolution settlement and it’s fairness that will secure the future of our Union. | We are going to hear much this afternoon about how this will create a different class of MPs...the truth is Madam Deputy Speaker, is that this is actually nonsense. Despite all the rhetoric our proposals do none of that. They bring fairness to our devolution settlement and it’s fairness that will secure the future of our Union. |
| 12.51pm BST | |
| 12:51 | |
| Grayling: "I am entirely comfortable as a unionist in presenting these to this house, no matter what some on the other side might say" #EVEL | Grayling: "I am entirely comfortable as a unionist in presenting these to this house, no matter what some on the other side might say" #EVEL |
| 12.47pm BST | |
| 12:47 | |
| Conservative MP John Redwood says English Labour MPs should be ashamed of their party’s position. Grayling says Labour’s opposition baffles him as it gives English MPs the same rights as MPs from other countries in the UK. | Conservative MP John Redwood says English Labour MPs should be ashamed of their party’s position. Grayling says Labour’s opposition baffles him as it gives English MPs the same rights as MPs from other countries in the UK. |
| John Redwood on #evel "England has waited 18 years for some justice" | John Redwood on #evel "England has waited 18 years for some justice" |
| Angus MacNeil MP says that, seeing as he wants English votes for English laws, could the Scottish get Scottish votes for Scottish laws. Grayling replies that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have devolved governments, so why shouldn’t England have more controls over its own matters. | Angus MacNeil MP says that, seeing as he wants English votes for English laws, could the Scottish get Scottish votes for Scottish laws. Grayling replies that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have devolved governments, so why shouldn’t England have more controls over its own matters. |
| Updated | |
| at 12.50pm BST | |