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George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live George Pell testifies to the child sexual abuse royal commission from Rome, day four – live
(35 minutes later)
11.30pm GMT
23:30
The lawyers are pressed for time, with the commission due to finish at 1pm. Many have had their requested time for questioning cut back, and are being kept to a strict schedule.
The lawyers are rushing to get everything in today, which means #Pell is facing machine-gun questioning #royalcommission
11.26pm GMT
23:26
Sky News’ Simon Love is back at the Ballarat Town Hall for the final day of Pell’s evidence. He was joined by a small group of survivors for the early start.
Small group of survivors inside Ballarat Town Hall for the early start on final day of #Pell evidence @SkyNewsAust pic.twitter.com/D1kf7G4f9y
As Love’s reported over the past four days, it was another lively crowd.
I'm hearing people in Ballarat Town Hall muttering "liar" as #pell carefully answer questions @SkyNewsAust @KKeneally
Fair bit of laughter in Ballarat Town Hall as Jim Shaw suggests #Pell is lying to retest reputation. Mood building here. @SkyNewsAust
Sarah Farnsworth of the ABC is also in Ballarat and tweeted about this emotional scene at the town hall earlier this morning.
Ballarat town hall bursts into applause as lawyer angrily asks #Pell "Why didn't you take it to police? Why didn't you tell someone?"
11.18pm GMT
23:18
Shaw: “I suggest very directly you are lying about this to protect your own reputation. What do you say about that?”
Pell: “I’d say that is completely untrue and unjustified by any evidence. It is a baseless allegation.”
Shaw: “Can I suggest ... the church cared more about itself as an institution than it did about little children and adolescents entrusted to its care, that’s right, isn’t it?”
Pell: “The church too often did not care adequately for the survivors and children.”
Updated
at 11.21pm GMT
11.15pm GMT
23:15
A lawyer representing victims, Jim Shaw, puts it to Pell: “To paraphrase the old saying, your memory works in mysterious ways, Cardinal?”
Pell: “No more mysterious than many other people and in fact my memory of events 30 or 40 years ago might be marginally better than the memories of some.”
Shaw: “I suggest it’s implausible that the only thing you would remember nothing of these meetings except for one thing and a thing that didn’t happen. That is, the fact that paedophilia was not mentioned? That is implausible, Cardinal?”
Pell: “Well,the way you put it, it certainly is. I never suggested I remembered nothing of the meetings. Paedophilia is abhorrent and if it was mentioned, I would have remembered it.”
The meeting being referred to is a meeting of consultors in 1982 where Pell was present. At the meeting it was decided to move notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale for a sixth time between parishes. While the majority of people at that meeting knew Ridsdale was abusing children, Pell maintains he did not know and he also did not know the true reason for Ridsdale being moved. On Wednesday counsel assisting, Gail Furness, told Pell it was implausible that the bishop and his other consultors knew while Pell did not.
Updated
at 11.25pm GMT
11.04pm GMT
23:04
The royal commission has resumed.
The hearing has resumed. Cardinal Pell is giving evidence. Watch online https://t.co/ftEOVFvfXX
Updated
at 11.05pm GMT
10.57pm GMT10.57pm GMT
22:5722:57
Fairfax Cartoonist, Cathy Wilcox, with her take on the proceedings: Fairfax cartoonist Cathy Wilcox with her take on the proceedings:
Three not very interested monkeys.My @smh cartoon. pic.twitter.com/t7IjnWZ2QGThree not very interested monkeys.My @smh cartoon. pic.twitter.com/t7IjnWZ2QG
Updated
at 11.26pm GMT
10.51pm GMT10.51pm GMT
22:5122:51
A recap of this morning's evidenceA recap of this morning's evidence
I wonder who is writing the summary of Cardinal Pell's evidence for the Pope each day?I wonder who is writing the summary of Cardinal Pell's evidence for the Pope each day?
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.59pm GMT at 11.01pm GMT
10.42pm GMT10.42pm GMT
22:4222:42
Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, speaks to the press in RomeAbuse survivor, David Ridsdale, speaks to the press in Rome
David Ridsdale’s lawyer cross-examined Pell this morning. He tells the media:David Ridsdale’s lawyer cross-examined Pell this morning. He tells the media:
You’re our voice. Seriously, you are our voice. Without the media survivors just wouldn’t get anywhere. So anyway, it’s difficult for us ... it’s difficult for us not to give in to the strong emotional responses that the lack of empathy evokes in survivors. We maintain our dignity.You’re our voice. Seriously, you are our voice. Without the media survivors just wouldn’t get anywhere. So anyway, it’s difficult for us ... it’s difficult for us not to give in to the strong emotional responses that the lack of empathy evokes in survivors. We maintain our dignity.
Another survivor, Philip Nagle, adds:Another survivor, Philip Nagle, adds:
The Ballarat survivors came to Rome to hear truth and honesty from George. We feel we have been deceived and lied to. The royal commission at some stage in the future will give a recommendation on the evidence given by George. We feel George has not been honest not truthful. George will have to live with this chosen course.The Ballarat survivors came to Rome to hear truth and honesty from George. We feel we have been deceived and lied to. The royal commission at some stage in the future will give a recommendation on the evidence given by George. We feel George has not been honest not truthful. George will have to live with this chosen course.
They said they did not want to weigh into whether Pell should resign, saying that was a matter for the Vatican, the police and the royal commission.They said they did not want to weigh into whether Pell should resign, saying that was a matter for the Vatican, the police and the royal commission.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.49pm GMTat 10.49pm GMT
10.37pm GMT10.37pm GMT
22:3722:37
Pell must stand down – Manny WaksPell must stand down – Manny Waks
In 1988, when he was 11 years old, Manny Waks was abused by a member of the Orthodox Jewish Yeshivah centre known only to the commission as AVP. The man abused Waks multiple times. When he was 12 another Yeshivah staff member, security guard David Cyprys, began sexually abusing him.In 1988, when he was 11 years old, Manny Waks was abused by a member of the Orthodox Jewish Yeshivah centre known only to the commission as AVP. The man abused Waks multiple times. When he was 12 another Yeshivah staff member, security guard David Cyprys, began sexually abusing him.
At a press conference in Rome, Waks said he had just arrived in Italy because he felt compelled to support the Catholic survivors. Waks gave evidence to the commission during its hearings last year into the Yeshivah centres. Waks told reporters a couple of minutes ago:At a press conference in Rome, Waks said he had just arrived in Italy because he felt compelled to support the Catholic survivors. Waks gave evidence to the commission during its hearings last year into the Yeshivah centres. Waks told reporters a couple of minutes ago:
I’m here on behalf of the Jewish community. I’ve been watching the ongoing developments over the last few days and nights from Israel. I felt compelled to come over here personally, I’ve just gotten off the flight an hour ago and to stand in support of these courageous survivors and their families.I’m here on behalf of the Jewish community. I’ve been watching the ongoing developments over the last few days and nights from Israel. I felt compelled to come over here personally, I’ve just gotten off the flight an hour ago and to stand in support of these courageous survivors and their families.
As we know, this issue crosses borders. It’s not unique to any religion and we need to address it robustly and there are no excuses and there is – this is the time for no more silence. As a member of the Jewish community, as a leader of the Jewish community, there are hundreds if not thousands of Jews around the world who have contacted me and asked me to personally convey this message publicly and to the survivors and the families themselves.As we know, this issue crosses borders. It’s not unique to any religion and we need to address it robustly and there are no excuses and there is – this is the time for no more silence. As a member of the Jewish community, as a leader of the Jewish community, there are hundreds if not thousands of Jews around the world who have contacted me and asked me to personally convey this message publicly and to the survivors and the families themselves.
From my perspective personally I would say that Cardinal Pell must resign from his position. If he was aware of some of those issues that went on back then, clearly he’s culpable. If he didn’t know of what was going on, then he’s incompetent. If he’s not going to do that for the victims and the survivors, then he should do that for itself.From my perspective personally I would say that Cardinal Pell must resign from his position. If he was aware of some of those issues that went on back then, clearly he’s culpable. If he didn’t know of what was going on, then he’s incompetent. If he’s not going to do that for the victims and the survivors, then he should do that for itself.
You can read my interview with Waks from last year here.You can read my interview with Waks from last year here.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.50pm GMTat 10.50pm GMT
10.31pm GMT10.31pm GMT
22:3122:31
'Coincidence, my foot. They clearly colluded' – survivor'Coincidence, my foot. They clearly colluded' – survivor
Stephen Woods – who was abused by the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Francis Ridsdale and the convicted paedophile brother Robert Charles Best while a student at St Alipius primary school has given a press conference outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome.Stephen Woods – who was abused by the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Francis Ridsdale and the convicted paedophile brother Robert Charles Best while a student at St Alipius primary school has given a press conference outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome.
As with all survivors, we are really hopeful that more would have come out as far as the cover-ups of the ongoing, I suppose instability is the feeling I’m feeling in the Catholic church, that they seem to not really be sure about how to deal with so much criminality.As with all survivors, we are really hopeful that more would have come out as far as the cover-ups of the ongoing, I suppose instability is the feeling I’m feeling in the Catholic church, that they seem to not really be sure about how to deal with so much criminality.
Because there’s been no independent investigations, been no worrying about what has gone on over the last century in Australia. As we heard just before that Cardinal Pell said that when asked why there were so many paedophiles in Ballarat, he said it was just a tragic coincidence. Coincidence, my foot.Because there’s been no independent investigations, been no worrying about what has gone on over the last century in Australia. As we heard just before that Cardinal Pell said that when asked why there were so many paedophiles in Ballarat, he said it was just a tragic coincidence. Coincidence, my foot.
They clearly colluded and so it raises this very serious question about what is wrong with the thinking amongst the leaders in the church that they don’t want to know what has gone so seriously and tragically wrong that we have to come to the other side of the world to get answers.They clearly colluded and so it raises this very serious question about what is wrong with the thinking amongst the leaders in the church that they don’t want to know what has gone so seriously and tragically wrong that we have to come to the other side of the world to get answers.
We are wishing the pope intervenes here. The pope is willing to meet with us and just hear our concerns, hear the pain of so many thousands of victims in Australia and that this is shedding such bad light on the church and shedding such bad light on everybody who says that the Catholics are good.We are wishing the pope intervenes here. The pope is willing to meet with us and just hear our concerns, hear the pain of so many thousands of victims in Australia and that this is shedding such bad light on the church and shedding such bad light on everybody who says that the Catholics are good.
"Coincidence my foot, it was clearly systemic" says abuse survivor Stephen Wood re Cardinal Pell's evidence today pic.twitter.com/lRKVm5bRaa"Coincidence my foot, it was clearly systemic" says abuse survivor Stephen Wood re Cardinal Pell's evidence today pic.twitter.com/lRKVm5bRaa
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.43pm GMTat 10.43pm GMT
10.20pm GMT10.20pm GMT
22:2022:20
Ballarat was 'was one of the very worst places in Australia', Pell saysBallarat was 'was one of the very worst places in Australia', Pell says
Lawyer Jim Shaw says to Pell: “As we’ve found, Ballarat was, if you like, the very epicentre of clergy sexual abuse in the 70s, wasn’t it? That’s what we now know.”Lawyer Jim Shaw says to Pell: “As we’ve found, Ballarat was, if you like, the very epicentre of clergy sexual abuse in the 70s, wasn’t it? That’s what we now know.”
Pell agrees. “We now know it was one of the very worst places in Australia,” he says.Pell agrees. “We now know it was one of the very worst places in Australia,” he says.
Shaw: “You said also on the second day of your evidence on Tuesday, and we’ve heard this quote many times before, you are probably sick of hearing it: ‘[paedophile priest Gerald] Ridsdale was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’ Do you remember that?”Shaw: “You said also on the second day of your evidence on Tuesday, and we’ve heard this quote many times before, you are probably sick of hearing it: ‘[paedophile priest Gerald] Ridsdale was a sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’ Do you remember that?”
Pell: “I said nothing of the kind as I have endeavoured to explain this evening.”Pell: “I said nothing of the kind as I have endeavoured to explain this evening.”
Shaw: “I’m quoting you from the transcript, Cardinal.”Shaw: “I’m quoting you from the transcript, Cardinal.”
Pell: “I would like you to do so.”Pell: “I would like you to do so.”
Shaw: “I just did. ‘A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’”Shaw: “I just did. ‘A sad story and it wasn’t of much interest to me.’”
Pell: “That’s a selective quotation. I’ve explained that the use of the word ‘interested’ was a mistake and misleading and I tried to explain just what I was starting to say in a confused and inadequate way.”Pell: “That’s a selective quotation. I’ve explained that the use of the word ‘interested’ was a mistake and misleading and I tried to explain just what I was starting to say in a confused and inadequate way.”
And with that we’re taking a 40-minute break. Pell requested the 40 minutes, saying he wanted to return “as clear-headed as possible”.And with that we’re taking a 40-minute break. Pell requested the 40 minutes, saying he wanted to return “as clear-headed as possible”.
Melissa Davey with you here, you in can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.Melissa Davey with you here, you in can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.
Survivors are due to make some statements outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome shortly.Survivors are due to make some statements outside the Hotel Quirinale in Rome shortly.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.24pm GMT at 11.01pm GMT
10.14pm GMT10.14pm GMT
22:1422:14
Pope Francis receives a daily summary of Pell's evidencePope Francis receives a daily summary of Pell's evidence
Pell tells lawyer Jim Shaw that he saw Pope Francis on Monday but that he did not discuss the commission hearings with him.Pell tells lawyer Jim Shaw that he saw Pope Francis on Monday but that he did not discuss the commission hearings with him.
Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”
Pell: “I arranged for him to have a summary of each day’s activities provided to him and to the secretary of state.”Pell: “I arranged for him to have a summary of each day’s activities provided to him and to the secretary of state.”
Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”Shaw: “Did you discuss your evidence with him?”
Pell: “No, not really, not at all.”Pell: “No, not really, not at all.”
Jim Shaw up for Andrew Collins and Stephen Woods who are both in the room in Rome (middle and right) #CARoyalComm pic.twitter.com/n8UBG3FpxKJim Shaw up for Andrew Collins and Stephen Woods who are both in the room in Rome (middle and right) #CARoyalComm pic.twitter.com/n8UBG3FpxK
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.23pm GMTat 10.23pm GMT
10.09pm GMT10.09pm GMT
22:0922:09
In 1991 the archdiocese of Ballarat heard from a mother who complained that Paul David Ryan tried to have a bath with her youngest son when he was 12 or 13.In 1991 the archdiocese of Ballarat heard from a mother who complained that Paul David Ryan tried to have a bath with her youngest son when he was 12 or 13.
Giving evidence to the royal commission last year, Australian army chaplain Monsignor Glynn Murphy, who was the bishop’s secretary at Ballarat between 1990 and 1997, gave evidence that the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, subsequently told him that Ryan was to be sent to another parish, in Ararat.Giving evidence to the royal commission last year, Australian army chaplain Monsignor Glynn Murphy, who was the bishop’s secretary at Ballarat between 1990 and 1997, gave evidence that the bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, subsequently told him that Ryan was to be sent to another parish, in Ararat.
After a few months at Ararat, Ryan was sent to the US for treatment for his abusing. Under questioning from a lawyer, Pell says that although he was aware that Ryan was being sent to the US, he did not know that was to receive treatment for his behaviour towards young boys.After a few months at Ararat, Ryan was sent to the US for treatment for his abusing. Under questioning from a lawyer, Pell says that although he was aware that Ryan was being sent to the US, he did not know that was to receive treatment for his behaviour towards young boys.
“I would have accepted at face value the statement of the bishop to the clergy that he was in the States for study purposes,” Pell says.“I would have accepted at face value the statement of the bishop to the clergy that he was in the States for study purposes,” Pell says.
But Pell does say that he regarded Ryan “at least a potential problem”.But Pell does say that he regarded Ryan “at least a potential problem”.
He says: “I wasn’t aware that there was a peadophilia problem and I thought he was there basically to study.”He says: “I wasn’t aware that there was a peadophilia problem and I thought he was there basically to study.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.22pm GMTat 10.22pm GMT
9.46pm GMT9.46pm GMT
21:4621:46
'The boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it' – Pell'The boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it' – Pell
Pell says when a schoolboy complained to him about paedophile Brother Dowlan, “He just mentioned it casually in conversation, he never asked me to do anything.”Pell says when a schoolboy complained to him about paedophile Brother Dowlan, “He just mentioned it casually in conversation, he never asked me to do anything.”
Lawyer: “You didn’t go straight to the school and say, ‘I’ve got this allegation, what’s going on?’”Lawyer: “You didn’t go straight to the school and say, ‘I’ve got this allegation, what’s going on?’”
Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.”Pell: “No, I didn’t. People had a different attitude then. There was no specifics about the activity, how serious it was and the boy wasn’t asking me to do anything about it but just lamenting and mentioning it.”
Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?”Justice McClellan interjects here. He says: “You and I have had this discussion on more than one occasion. Why was it necessary for people to ask you to do something rather than for you to accept the information and initiate your own response?”
Pell: “Obviously that is not the case and my responsibilities as an auxiliary bishop and director of an educational institution, an archbishop, I was more aware of those obligations in those situations than I was as a young cleric … But I don’t ... excuse my comparative lack of activity, the fact that I only went to the school chaplain and inquired what was the truth of these rumours.”Pell: “Obviously that is not the case and my responsibilities as an auxiliary bishop and director of an educational institution, an archbishop, I was more aware of those obligations in those situations than I was as a young cleric … But I don’t ... excuse my comparative lack of activity, the fact that I only went to the school chaplain and inquired what was the truth of these rumours.”
Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys.Tension in room rises as Pell says he did nothing about a 1973 complaint from a boy who told him Father Dowlan was misbehaving with boys.
Q: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalCommQ: You could have done something... [to stop Dowlan's abuse] couldn't you?Cd. Pell: "I think that's a vast overstatement." #CARoyalComm
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at 9.53pm GMTat 9.53pm GMT
9.38pm GMT
21:38
BWF’s lawyer tells Pell that BWF’s ex-wife also remembers her ex-husband telling her he went to Pell and told him about Dowlan’s abusing.
The lawyer points out BWF and his ex do not have a good relationship and she had no reason to help him, yet supported his evidence that he told Pell of the abuse.
BWF “might have had a fantasy” that the conversation with him happened, Pell suggests.
Cardinal Pell says Ballarat witness BWF might have had a fantasy. Denies he rejected a boy trying to inform him of a sexual assault.
9.30pm GMT
21:30
A lawyer representing a witness, identified only as BWF, tells Pell BWF’s “younger brother was beaten so seriously and so alarmingly and the injuries so apparent that his mother complained to the headmaster, Brother Nangle, about his treatment. Do you understand that to be the evidence?”
Pell: “I do. I do, very sad.”
Lawyer: “The evidence also from BWF is that at 14 years of age he came to learn of the bashing and such was the knowledge of Brother Dowlan’s abuse of children and sexual abuse and molestation of children within the school population, the student population in particular, that he came to understand correctly, as it turned out, that his younger brother had been beaten and sexually abused, do you understand that to be his evidence?”
Pell: “I do.”
Lawyer: “Now he’s said to this royal commission ... ‘I was very upset about what happened so that same week during some free time, I went to the presbytery to seek out Father Pell, who was a well-known influential priest in the area. I was so nervous I just blurted out to Pell that Dowlan had beaten and molested BWG [his brother], and demanded to know what he, Pell, was going to do about it. Pell became angry, yelled at me, ‘Young man, how dare you knock at this door and make demands.’ We argued for a bit and told me to go away and shut the door on me.’”
After some questioning Pell says: “Even if language that I was alleged to have used is ridiculous. The suggestion that I would speak like that to a young person in distress is absolutely false.”
“It might have happened with some other individual, but it certainly didn’t happen with me.”
In 2015, Edward Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four Christian Brothers schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period.
Cd. Pell denies the brother of a beaten, molested boy came to him at presbytery to complain. "It didn't happen with me." #CARoyalComm
Updated
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9.20pm GMT
21:20
Michael Fitzgerald, the lawyer for abuse survivor Paul Levey, is now asking Pell questions. Like survivor David Ridsdale, Levey is present in the room with Pell in Rome.
Levey was sexually abused by Father Gerald Ridsdale in Melbourne and Mortlake multiple times, and despite this abuse, was forced to live with Ridsdale when he was just 14 years old, subjecting him to further horrific and ongoing abuse.
Levey made the trip to Rome despite suffering severe medical ailments that meant he required a 24-hour stopover for medications on his way.
Pell tells Fitzgerald he was asked to appear in court with Gerald Ridsdale to perhaps lessen his jail time.
“I had some status as an auxiliary bishop and I was asked to appear with the ambition that this would lessen the term or punishment, perhaps, lessen his time in jail.”
Cardinal Pell says he agreed to walk alongside pedophile Gerald Ridsdale to court so he could get a lesser jail term.
Updated
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9.10pm GMT
21:10
Lawyer: “Now, it’s been publicly suggested in Australia that you are the target of a witch-hunt. You could not possibly share that view, could you?”
Pell: “I have never expressed such a view but I must confess the idea has occurred to me.”
Lawyer: “Do you feel victimised by the process, Cardinal?”
Pell: “By the process itself, no, but I am very keen to clearly demonstrate that when false claims are made against me that I explain the grounds why they are false as I’ve done in this case.”
Updated
at 9.17pm GMT
9.08pm GMT
21:08
The number of paedophiles in Ballarat was a 'disastrous coincidence', Pell says
A lawyer representing a child sex abuse victim identified only as BWE, as well as other survivors, asks Pell the reasons behind so many child sexual abusers aggregating in Ballarat East diocese in the 1970s.
Pell: “I think it was a ... disastrous coincidence.”
Lawyer: “At the time, there were approximately four or five persons with very similar predilections, specifically a sexual attraction to boys of a similar age in the same suburb. You believe that’s a coincidence?”
Pell: “Yes, I do.”
Lawyer: “So you have turned your mind to this issue and your conclusion is that it’s an unfortunate coincidence?”
Pell: “Yes, well, I couldn’t imagine the placements that were done there were made there by the leadership of the Christian Brothers and I think their leadership in this area was pretty disastrous but I wouldn’t for a minute think that they put all these people together for some specific purpose.”
Updated
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9.02pm GMT
21:02
The lawyer representing abuse survivor David Ridsdale, Stephen Odgers, concludes his cross-examination of Pell by saying David once told Pell: “F you, George, and everything you stand for.”
Odgers: “I suggest that it was you, not him, who raised the possibility of financial assistance, that you asked him, ‘What would it take for you to keep quiet?’ And that he responded angrily to your suggestions saying, ‘F you, George, and everything you stand for.’ What do you say to that, Cardinal?”
Pell: “That certainly did not happen because I would certainly remember it. I don’t think in fact it’s ever happened to my face in 50 years of priesthood and secondly, I would have been absolutely shocked in that coming – being said to me by a person who phoned me as a friend. That part of the conversation I’m afraid to say that that’s just not true.”
Cd. Pell says Mr Ridsdale never rebuffed his alleged bribe by saying "f*ck you George" because "I would certainly remember it." #CARoyalComm
Updated
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8.57pm GMT
20:57
Gerald Ridsdale did 'good things', Pell says
Pell is being pressed by abuse survivor David Ridsdale’s lawyer about why he walked to court with the notorious paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale when he faced charges.
Lawyer: “You walked to court with Gerald Ridsdale in May of 1993, didn’t you?
Pell: “I did.”
Lawyer: “You knew Gerald Ridsdale was pleading guilty to a number of child abuse offences?”
Pell: “I certainly did.”
Lawyer: “Yet, quite literally you stood beside him in public.”
Pell: “I had been asked either to appear – well certainly I was asked to appear in the court and/or give a reference. There were prolonged discussions with the lawyer. I made it quite clear that I was not going to dispute any of the allegations, that I was not going to imply any disrespect for the victims, the survivors, and I certainly was proposing to say that although I was unaware of much of what he’d done, that already it had done great damage to the church.
“The only thing I would say was that as a priest he’d done other good things like burying the dead and celebrating the sacraments, etc. His lawyer was not willing to have me stand up in court and say that. He said, ‘No, we won’t call you. Would you walk to the court with him?’ And I said yes. I now realise that was a mistake.”
Updated
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8.47pm GMT
20:47
Pell: 'I've never discouraged anyone from going to the police'
Father Gerald Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 80s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat. He is now in prison. Ridsdale’s nephew, David Ridsdale, was one of his victims, and he told Pell he was being abused. David Ridsdale has maintained that when he told Pell about the abuse, Pell encouraged him to keep quiet about it, and that Pell asked him what it would take to keep him quiet.
Pell has just told the commission David Ridsdale’s account of events is “implausible”.
It is implausible that I tried to bribe him for a number of reasons. The first of those was that I was aware that the police were already speaking to his uncle and so therefore I would have no motive in trying to prevent him going to the police.
I’ve never discouraged anyone from going to the police. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop and I had no access to money or – no access to significant resources. It’s implausible because I was an auxiliary bishop of Melbourne and this was a matter for the Ballarat diocese. And it’s implausible because, of course, the attempt to bribe someone is criminal.
Updated
at 9.06pm GMT
8.38pm GMT
20:38
David Ridsdale was abused by his uncle, notorious Ballarat pedophile Father Gerald Ridsdale. Pell admits to the commission that the fact he accompanied Gerald Ridsdale to court may have been upsetting to David.
Lawyer: “You accept, I think, that he’s [David Ridsdale] always believed right from the day of the phone call that you tried to keep him quiet?
Pell: “I don’t know quite what he believed from that day but if he says that’s the case I’ve certainly got no proof to the contrary. I suspect the fact that I accompanied his uncle to the court would have been something that displeased and upset him.”
Pell: "I suspect the fact I accompanied his uncle to court is something that would have upset (David)" pic.twitter.com/wom2Vbyv6R
Updated
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8.35pm GMT
20:35
Pell now says he was ambushed by 60 Minutes presenter Richard Carleton in an interview with him in 2002.
“I was ambushed on television,” Pell says.
Lawyer: “You told Richard Carleton that you thought the conversation [with David Ridsdale about his being abused] occurred after Gerald Ridsdale was in jail, didn’t you?”
Pell: “Yes, I had no prior notice that this matter was going to be brought up. My recall is not perfect and there are some details there which some suggestions which I think proved not to be true and Id on’t know whether it was so much a statement as a question asking just what was the sequence of events at that time.”
Lawyer: “And you accept that the conversation occurred before he was even charged?”
Pell: “Yes, I now know that’s the case.”
Updated
at 8.49pm GMT