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Lib Dem blow to referendum hopes Lib Dem blow to referendum hopes
(20 minutes later)
The chances of a referendum on the EU treaty have taken a blow after Lib Dem peers said they would vote against one.The chances of a referendum on the EU treaty have taken a blow after Lib Dem peers said they would vote against one.
The Tories were hoping to persuade them to follow their Commons colleagues by abstaining on the issue.The Tories were hoping to persuade them to follow their Commons colleagues by abstaining on the issue.
That led to it being rejected by MPs - but it is a different story in the Lords where Labour lacks a majority and Lib Dem abstentions may have swung it.That led to it being rejected by MPs - but it is a different story in the Lords where Labour lacks a majority and Lib Dem abstentions may have swung it.
Lord McNally, Lib Dem leader in the Lords, said he would not fall into "elephant traps" set by the Tories.Lord McNally, Lib Dem leader in the Lords, said he would not fall into "elephant traps" set by the Tories.
UKIP supports a referendum and its two peers are expected to speak out in favour of one - along with a number of cross bench and rebel Labour peers, but it is not likely to be enough for the Conservatives to gain a referendum. Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague said the Lib Dems' position on Europe was "now in total chaos".
Baroness Thatcher made a rare appearance in the chamber at the start of the European Union (Amendment) debate, although she is not expected to speak. "They now have a three-way split between rebel MPs who want a referendum, Lords officially voting against a referendum and a leadership lamely abstaining.
Nick Clegg's authority over his party now looks very weak indeed William HagueShadow Foreign Secretary "Nick Clegg's authority over his party now looks very weak indeed."
Setting out the Lib Dem position, Lord McNally told peers: "Let there be no doubt that we on these benches want to see this Bill passed and this treaty ratified. 'Awesome cowardice'
The UK Independence Party described the Lib Dem move as "awesome display of cowardice".
The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that Lord McNallyLiberal Democrats Polish deputies approve EU treaty
In a joint statement, UKIP peers Lord Pearson and Lord Willoughby de Broke, who both spoke in the Lords debate, said: "We have always known how fanatically pro European the Liberal Democrats have been and today they certainly demonstrated that."
About 70 peers are scheduled to speak in the marathon European Union (Amendment) debate, although Baroness Thatcher, who made a rare appearance in the chamber at the start of proceedings, is not expected to be among them.
There is unlikely to be a vote at this stage.
'Elephant traps'
Setting out the Lib Dem position, Lord McNally said: "Let there be no doubt that we on these benches want to see this Bill passed and this treaty ratified.
"Our general election commitment to a referendum was on a constitutional treaty. That commitment died with the constitution which was rejected by the French and the Dutch."Our general election commitment to a referendum was on a constitutional treaty. That commitment died with the constitution which was rejected by the French and the Dutch.
"We have taken the view that the present treaty is an amending treaty which should be carried through by the Parliamentary process.""We have taken the view that the present treaty is an amending treaty which should be carried through by the Parliamentary process."
He added: "The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that."He added: "The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that."
The Tory Party "longs to wound and fears to strike" on Europe, he said, adding: "My party is not going to fall into any elephant traps set by them".
'Transparent and accountable''Transparent and accountable'
But Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague, in a statement, said the Lib Dems' position on Europe was "now in total chaos".
"They now have a three-way split between rebel MPs who want a referendum, Lords officially voting against a referendum and a leadership lamely abstaining.
"Nick Clegg's authority over his party now looks very weak indeed."
Never in Britain has there been an objective attempt to explain the European Union to our people Baroness WilliamsLiberal Democrats
About 70 peers are scheduled to speak in the marathon ratification debate but there is unlikely to be a vote at this stage.
Opening proceedings for the government, Lords leader Baroness Ashton said the Lisbon treaty was necessary to streamline and reform EU decision-making.Opening proceedings for the government, Lords leader Baroness Ashton said the Lisbon treaty was necessary to streamline and reform EU decision-making.
It set clearer objectives for the EU and would make the EU more transparent and accountable to the member states, she told peers.It set clearer objectives for the EU and would make the EU more transparent and accountable to the member states, she told peers.
She added: "For the first time, national Parliaments will get a direct say in making European Union laws.She added: "For the first time, national Parliaments will get a direct say in making European Union laws.
"Also, for the first time, the Lisbon Treaty defines the EU's competencies, setting out explicitly where it can and cannot act.""Also, for the first time, the Lisbon Treaty defines the EU's competencies, setting out explicitly where it can and cannot act."
'Anti-constitution''Anti-constitution'
But Tory peer Lord Lawson said the Lisbon treaty would do precisely the opposite of that.But Tory peer Lord Lawson said the Lisbon treaty would do precisely the opposite of that.
"Unlike many of my colleagues on these benches, I have long believed the European Union badly needs a constitution," he told peers."Unlike many of my colleagues on these benches, I have long believed the European Union badly needs a constitution," he told peers.
But the Lisbon treaty was an "anti-constitution" which - rather than clearly setting out competencies - by-passed the "normal processes of treaty amendment" and transferred power to the EU. But the Lisbon treaty was an "anti-constitution" which by-passed the "normal processes of treaty amendment" and transferred power to the EU.
He argued that Britain should "take the baton from France and give the British people the...opportunity" to have a referendum on the treaty.
Baroness Williams, for the Lib Dems, advocated her party's policy of wider referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU, arguing the public had never been properly informed about its benefits.Baroness Williams, for the Lib Dems, advocated her party's policy of wider referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU, arguing the public had never been properly informed about its benefits.
She said then Prime Minister Tony Blair had blocked information campaigns during her time as chairman of the now defunct Britain in Europe group.She said then Prime Minister Tony Blair had blocked information campaigns during her time as chairman of the now defunct Britain in Europe group.
"Consequently, never in Britain has there been an objective attempt to explain the European Union to our people and they have been subjected to the most astonishing propaganda, not least from major influences in the printed press.""Consequently, never in Britain has there been an objective attempt to explain the European Union to our people and they have been subjected to the most astonishing propaganda, not least from major influences in the printed press."
The Lisbon Treaty was drawn up to replace the EU constitution, after that was rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.The Lisbon Treaty was drawn up to replace the EU constitution, after that was rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.
The Conservatives say it should be subject to a referendum, as one was promised on the constitution which they say was fundamentally the same.The Conservatives say it should be subject to a referendum, as one was promised on the constitution which they say was fundamentally the same.
But the government says the treaty is very different and does not have significant constitutional implications.But the government says the treaty is very different and does not have significant constitutional implications.