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Lib Dem blow to referendum hopes Lib Dem blow to referendum hopes
(about 19 hours later)
The chances of a referendum on the EU treaty have taken a blow after Lib Dem peers said they would vote against one. Conservative hopes of forcing a referendum on the EU treaty have taken a further blow after Lib Dem peers said they would vote against one.
The Tories were hoping to persuade them to follow their Commons colleagues by abstaining on the issue. Lord McNally, Lib Dem leader in the Lords, said they would not be asked to abstain like their MP colleagues.
That led to it being rejected by MPs - but it is a different story in the Lords where Labour lacks a majority and Lib Dem abstentions may have swung it. The Tories had hoped Lib Dem peers would help force a referendum back on to the agenda after it was rejected last month in the Commons.
Lord McNally, Lib Dem leader in the Lords, said he would not fall into "elephant traps" set by the Tories. Lord McNally said he wanted to avoid "elephant traps" set by the Tories.
Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague said the Lib Dems' position on Europe was "now in total chaos". But Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague said the Lib Dems' position on Europe was "now in total chaos".
"They now have a three-way split between rebel MPs who want a referendum, Lords officially voting against a referendum and a leadership lamely abstaining."They now have a three-way split between rebel MPs who want a referendum, Lords officially voting against a referendum and a leadership lamely abstaining.
"Nick Clegg's authority over his party now looks very weak indeed.""Nick Clegg's authority over his party now looks very weak indeed."
'Awesome cowardice''Awesome cowardice'
The UK Independence Party described the Lib Dem move as "awesome display of cowardice". The UK Independence Party described the Lib Dem move as an "awesome display of cowardice".
The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that Lord McNallyLiberal Democrats Polish deputies approve EU treaty For the first time, national Parliaments will get a direct say in making European Union laws Baroness AshtonLabour Party Polish deputies approve EU treaty
In a joint statement, UKIP peers Lord Pearson and Lord Willoughby de Broke, who both spoke in the Lords debate, said: "We have always known how fanatically pro European the Liberal Democrats have been and today they certainly demonstrated that."In a joint statement, UKIP peers Lord Pearson and Lord Willoughby de Broke, who both spoke in the Lords debate, said: "We have always known how fanatically pro European the Liberal Democrats have been and today they certainly demonstrated that."
About 70 peers are scheduled to speak in the marathon European Union (Amendment) debate, although Baroness Thatcher, who made a rare appearance in the chamber at the start of proceedings, is not expected to be among them. But Lord McNally said he wanted to avoid any confusion about the Lib Dem position on the Lisbon treaty.
There is unlikely to be a vote at this stage. He told peers: "Let there be no doubt that we on these benches want to see this Bill passed and this treaty ratified.
'Elephant traps'
Setting out the Lib Dem position, Lord McNally said: "Let there be no doubt that we on these benches want to see this Bill passed and this treaty ratified.
"Our general election commitment to a referendum was on a constitutional treaty. That commitment died with the constitution which was rejected by the French and the Dutch."Our general election commitment to a referendum was on a constitutional treaty. That commitment died with the constitution which was rejected by the French and the Dutch.
"We have taken the view that the present treaty is an amending treaty which should be carried through by the Parliamentary process.""We have taken the view that the present treaty is an amending treaty which should be carried through by the Parliamentary process."
'Direct say'
He added: "The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that."He added: "The Conservatives have gone on about a referendum but when my colleagues in the Commons offered an in-or-out referendum, they ran away from that."
The Tory Party "longs to wound and fears to strike" on Europe, he said, adding: "My party is not going to fall into any elephant traps set by them". About 70 peers were scheduled to speak in Tuesday's European Union (Amendment) debate - but Baroness Thatcher, who made a rare appearance in the chamber at the start of proceedings, was not among them.
'Transparent and accountable'
Opening proceedings for the government, Lords leader Baroness Ashton said the Lisbon treaty was necessary to streamline and reform EU decision-making.Opening proceedings for the government, Lords leader Baroness Ashton said the Lisbon treaty was necessary to streamline and reform EU decision-making.
It set clearer objectives for the EU and would make the EU more transparent and accountable to the member states, she told peers.It set clearer objectives for the EU and would make the EU more transparent and accountable to the member states, she told peers.
She added: "For the first time, national Parliaments will get a direct say in making European Union laws.She added: "For the first time, national Parliaments will get a direct say in making European Union laws.
"Also, for the first time, the Lisbon Treaty defines the EU's competencies, setting out explicitly where it can and cannot act.""Also, for the first time, the Lisbon Treaty defines the EU's competencies, setting out explicitly where it can and cannot act."
'Anti-constitution' 'Credibility blow'
But Tory peer Lord Lawson said the Lisbon treaty would do precisely the opposite of that. But Conservative peer and former Chancellor Lord Lawson said the treaty would do precisely the opposite of that, describing it as an "anti-constitution".
"Unlike many of my colleagues on these benches, I have long believed the European Union badly needs a constitution," he told peers. It is our plain duty to hold the government to its promise about a referendum Lord WaddingtonConservative Party
But the Lisbon treaty was an "anti-constitution" which by-passed the "normal processes of treaty amendment" and transferred power to the EU. He said the delay between the collapse of the original treaty and the creation of the Lisbon Treaty showed the EU could manage without it.
Baroness Williams, for the Lib Dems, advocated her party's policy of wider referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU, arguing the public had never been properly informed about its benefits. But a number of senior Tories spoke out against their party's policy.
She said then Prime Minister Tony Blair had blocked information campaigns during her time as chairman of the now defunct Britain in Europe group. Ex-Chancellor Lord Howe said he did not have "huge affection" for the "complex" treaty but failure to ratify it would be a "serious blow to the credibility and effectiveness of the United Kingdom".
"Consequently, never in Britain has there been an objective attempt to explain the European Union to our people and they have been subjected to the most astonishing propaganda, not least from major influences in the printed press." Ex-EU commissioner and former home secretary Lord Brittan said he was "strongly opposed" to a referendum.
The Lisbon Treaty was drawn up to replace the EU constitution, after that was rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005. He said: "The treaty is useful and necessary and does not radically transform the EU or our relationship with our European partners. It is not a constitution."
The Conservatives say it should be subject to a referendum, as one was promised on the constitution which they say was fundamentally the same. But former Tory Home Secretary Lord Waddington said: "Respect for Parliament will continue to decline so long as our leaders don't play straight with the British public.
But the government says the treaty is very different and does not have significant constitutional implications. "It is our plain duty to hold the government to its promise about a referendum. If we are not prepared to, we might as well pack up and all go home."
'Matter of trust'
Lord Dykes, winding up for the Lib Dems, criticised the Tories' "pathetic hatred" of Europe and said his party was "ready to take on all comers" in promoting the UK's role in the EU.
Lord Hunt of Wirral, for the Tories, said: "I hope ministers will approach the amendments tabled in this House in an open way."
He described the issue of whether there is a referendum on the treaty as "a matter of trust" and said that it was in fact Nick Clegg who had first suggested a referendum in 2003 and the proposal was later taken up by Mr Blair.
The Bill was given a second reading unopposed after a marathon 12 hour debate.
There is likely to be a vote on a referendum at a later stage in its passage through the Lords.