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EU referendum debate: first major TV clash between the campaigns – live EU referendum debate: first major TV clash between the campaigns – As it happened
(35 minutes later)
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The first major televised debate of the EU referendum has concluded in front of an audience in front of a young voters in Glasgow.The first major televised debate of the EU referendum has concluded in front of an audience in front of a young voters in Glasgow.
• The vista of another Scottish independence referendum being triggered by a Brexit was raised by the former SNP leader, Alex Salmond, who said that it would take place within the two year period of the UK negotiating for withdrawal from the EU.“In the circumstances of Scotland being threatened with being dragged out of the EU against their will I think the result would be yes this time,” he said.“If you have the situation where, in four weeks time, Scotland voters remain and the rest of the UK, or England, drags Scotland out by voting to leave then that would justify in my opinion another referendum because during the referendum in 2014 the people of Scotland were told that voting no would secure Scotland’s position within the European Union.” • The prospect of another Scottish independence referendum being triggered by a Brexit was raised by the former SNP leader, Alex Salmond, who said that it would take place within the two year period of the UK negotiating for withdrawal from the EU.
• The Ukip MEP Diane James told the debate that “we don’t know” if visas would be needed to travel to the EU in the event of a Brexit.Both James and the Tory MP, Liam Fox, appearing for the Leave side, focused heavily on immigration in their answers, telling the audience that leaving the EU would be the only way of alleviating pressure on public services and housing.Describing the EU as a “political construct”, Fox also said that trade and tourism with Europe existed before the EU and would continue afterwards. “In the circumstances of Scotland being threatened with being dragged out of the EU against their will I think the result would be yes this time,” he said.
• The NHS once again loomed in the referendum debate. Alan Johnson said that the health service would suffer if the UK left the EU and caused the British economy to shrink. More spending was needed on health, he argued, rather than departing from a bloc in which other members spent more on health.James made the case for Brexit on the basis that it would potentially make it easier for the UK to bring in more Commonwealth doctors from New Zealand, Australia and Canada “who speak our language”. “If you have the situation where, in four weeks time, Scotland voters remain and the rest of the UK, or England, drags Scotland out by voting to leave then that would justify in my opinion another referendum because during the referendum in 2014 the people of Scotland were told that voting no would secure Scotland’s position within the European Union.”
• The Ukip MEP Diane James told the debate that “we don’t know” if visas would be needed to travel to the EU in the event of a Brexit.
Both James and the Tory MP, Liam Fox, appearing for the Leave side, focused heavily on immigration in their answers, telling the audience that leaving the EU would be the only way of alleviating pressure on public services and housing.
Describing the EU as a “political construct”, Fox also said that trade and tourism with Europe existed before the EU and would continue afterwards.
• The NHS once again loomed in the referendum debate. Alan Johnson said that the health service would suffer if the UK left the EU and caused the British economy to shrink.
More spending was needed on health, he argued, rather than departing from a bloc in which other members spent more on health.
James made the case for Brexit on the basis that it would potentially make it easier for the UK to bring in more Commonwealth doctors from New Zealand, Australia and Canada “who speak our language”.
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There was at least one vaguely happy viewer it seems, judging from this tweet:There was at least one vaguely happy viewer it seems, judging from this tweet:
One thing I do like about this debate is the immediate feedback on whether the question was even answered. Usually it's not. #BBCDebateOne thing I do like about this debate is the immediate feedback on whether the question was even answered. Usually it's not. #BBCDebate
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It’s over. As political debates of this type go that was a fairly heated one, with perhaps more audience participation than usual.It’s over. As political debates of this type go that was a fairly heated one, with perhaps more audience participation than usual.
At first glance, the political panel didn’t commit any gaffes. But neither did they land any significant blows. I’ll post a summary shortly.At first glance, the political panel didn’t commit any gaffes. But neither did they land any significant blows. I’ll post a summary shortly.
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And that, it seems, is that. Derbyshire takes a show of hands to see if the undecided voters in the audience have made up their minds. About half go up.And that, it seems, is that. Derbyshire takes a show of hands to see if the undecided voters in the audience have made up their minds. About half go up.
A young woman says she wants to stay, telling Derbyshire that the arguments about the loss of jobs swayed her.A young woman says she wants to stay, telling Derbyshire that the arguments about the loss of jobs swayed her.
A young man, who has now decided to vote for Brexit, says that the Remain camp has not given any idea of what type of reforms are needed in the EU.A young man, who has now decided to vote for Brexit, says that the Remain camp has not given any idea of what type of reforms are needed in the EU.
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Johnson says that if the UK’s economy shrinks then the NHS would suffer. It’s about spending, he argues, adding that funding for the NHS needs to be at the EU average.Johnson says that if the UK’s economy shrinks then the NHS would suffer. It’s about spending, he argues, adding that funding for the NHS needs to be at the EU average.
“In Europe they spend about 9% of spending on health. We used to be at that but we have gone back to 6%.”“In Europe they spend about 9% of spending on health. We used to be at that but we have gone back to 6%.”
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A student nurse, Dawn, wants to know what advantages there would be to the NHS about leaving the EU.A student nurse, Dawn, wants to know what advantages there would be to the NHS about leaving the EU.
Diane James comes in with – guess what? – a point linked to immigration: “I might seem like I’m repeating myself.”Diane James comes in with – guess what? – a point linked to immigration: “I might seem like I’m repeating myself.”
“I would far rather see people like yourself go through the nurse training programme and come here,” James tells Dawn. She wants the UK to be able to go to other countries – Commonwealth ones – with which it has a good relationship and whose skill base it can trust.“I would far rather see people like yourself go through the nurse training programme and come here,” James tells Dawn. She wants the UK to be able to go to other countries – Commonwealth ones – with which it has a good relationship and whose skill base it can trust.
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Liam Fox says he doesn’t understand what the SNP didn’t understand about their defeat in the Scottish poll. The issue is another case of “fear-based” campaigning, according to the MP.Liam Fox says he doesn’t understand what the SNP didn’t understand about their defeat in the Scottish poll. The issue is another case of “fear-based” campaigning, according to the MP.
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Elina Leslie from Dundee asks: if Scotland voted one way and the rest of Britain voted the other way would it lead to another “unwanted” referendum on Scottish independence?Elina Leslie from Dundee asks: if Scotland voted one way and the rest of Britain voted the other way would it lead to another “unwanted” referendum on Scottish independence?
By definition it wouldn’t be unwanted, according to Salmond, who cites Nicola Sturgeon’s view last year that if Scotland was “dragged” out of the EU against its own will then that would provide a democratic mandate for a new poll.By definition it wouldn’t be unwanted, according to Salmond, who cites Nicola Sturgeon’s view last year that if Scotland was “dragged” out of the EU against its own will then that would provide a democratic mandate for a new poll.
Ok, but when? “It would have to be within the two-year period of the UK negotiating withdrawal from the EU,” Salmond says.Ok, but when? “It would have to be within the two-year period of the UK negotiating withdrawal from the EU,” Salmond says.
“If Scotland votes Remain and the rest of the UK votes [Leave] then that in my mind would justify another referendum.”“If Scotland votes Remain and the rest of the UK votes [Leave] then that in my mind would justify another referendum.”
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It seems like Liam Fox is tweeting (or is someone in control of his iPhone) from inside the debate. He’s just retweeted this:It seems like Liam Fox is tweeting (or is someone in control of his iPhone) from inside the debate. He’s just retweeted this:
I think @LiamFoxMP is speaking very well. Control who comes to the UK is sensibility? No? #BBCDebate #BrexitI think @LiamFoxMP is speaking very well. Control who comes to the UK is sensibility? No? #BBCDebate #Brexit
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One viewer is unimpressed with the audience’s attire:One viewer is unimpressed with the audience’s attire:
One man is wearing nice trousers. The rest of the audience should be ashamed. #BBCDebateOne man is wearing nice trousers. The rest of the audience should be ashamed. #BBCDebate
And another observation:And another observation:
That's the second #BBCDebate audience member in five mins who's been on #BBCQT very recently.That's the second #BBCDebate audience member in five mins who's been on #BBCQT very recently.
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Alan Johnson takes on the Leave argument that travel arrangements would not change for UK citizens in the event of a Brexit.Alan Johnson takes on the Leave argument that travel arrangements would not change for UK citizens in the event of a Brexit.
It could mean the return of watchtowers along the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, he says.It could mean the return of watchtowers along the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, he says.
An audience member says he has been thinking about this too and asks what the Leave side have to say about Johnson’s point.An audience member says he has been thinking about this too and asks what the Leave side have to say about Johnson’s point.
Fox says there have always been bilateral arrangements between the UK and the Republic of Ireland: “Why would that change?”Fox says there have always been bilateral arrangements between the UK and the Republic of Ireland: “Why would that change?”
On this same issue, here’s some coverage recently from across the Irish border and how the referendum campaign is being received there:On this same issue, here’s some coverage recently from across the Irish border and how the referendum campaign is being received there:
Related: Beyond borders: the Irish villages dreading a Brexit voteRelated: Beyond borders: the Irish villages dreading a Brexit vote
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As debates go, this is a fairly boisterous one, perhaps even bad-tempered? The Guardian’s Heather Stewart picks up on this exchange between audience members earlier:As debates go, this is a fairly boisterous one, perhaps even bad-tempered? The Guardian’s Heather Stewart picks up on this exchange between audience members earlier:
Young woman being barracked by other audience members. "This feels like I'm in House of Commons here and it's PM's questions!" #BBCDebateYoung woman being barracked by other audience members. "This feels like I'm in House of Commons here and it's PM's questions!" #BBCDebate
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Two more questions from the audience now – both linked to travel:Two more questions from the audience now – both linked to travel:
There is a world out there outside of the EU, says Fox, who adds that he and his family used to have holidays in Europe before the union came along.There is a world out there outside of the EU, says Fox, who adds that he and his family used to have holidays in Europe before the union came along.
“The idea that because we are not in the EU that you are not going to be able to have a holiday in Majorca is just...” he says, before Derbyshire says that no one is suggesting that.“The idea that because we are not in the EU that you are not going to be able to have a holiday in Majorca is just...” he says, before Derbyshire says that no one is suggesting that.
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Back to immigration again, courtesy of Diane James, who says that qualified doctors in Commonwealth countries are being denied entry to the UK.Back to immigration again, courtesy of Diane James, who says that qualified doctors in Commonwealth countries are being denied entry to the UK.
“Why not have someone from the Commonwealth who speaks our language?” she says.“Why not have someone from the Commonwealth who speaks our language?” she says.
To cheers from Remain supporters in the audience, Salmond comes in with: “If I wanted a qualified doctor then a qualified Lithuanian, Danish, French one would do just now.”To cheers from Remain supporters in the audience, Salmond comes in with: “If I wanted a qualified doctor then a qualified Lithuanian, Danish, French one would do just now.”
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Not everyone is enjoying the debate at home...Not everyone is enjoying the debate at home...
I regret watching this already #bbcdebateI regret watching this already #bbcdebate
This would be better if they had a completely different panel and a completely different audience #BBCDebateThis would be better if they had a completely different panel and a completely different audience #BBCDebate
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Have the two sides been scaremongering?Have the two sides been scaremongering?
Yes, says a woman in the audience who supports Brexit but dislikes the messages from her own ‘side’: “Some of the noise that we have heard about immigration and how awful it is if we stay.”Yes, says a woman in the audience who supports Brexit but dislikes the messages from her own ‘side’: “Some of the noise that we have heard about immigration and how awful it is if we stay.”
“I do want to leave and I think it would be better if we leave.”“I do want to leave and I think it would be better if we leave.”
However, she wants to ask the Remain side if David Cameron really believes “it will be world war three if we leave then why are we even risking a referendum?”However, she wants to ask the Remain side if David Cameron really believes “it will be world war three if we leave then why are we even risking a referendum?”
An audience member from the Remain side says that a massive majority of people are not going to turn out because of the poor quality of the debate.An audience member from the Remain side says that a massive majority of people are not going to turn out because of the poor quality of the debate.
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Salmond says that there are four weeks to go in the campaign and the Remain side really needs to engage people with positivity: “Leave the scaremongering behind and argue a positive case.”Salmond says that there are four weeks to go in the campaign and the Remain side really needs to engage people with positivity: “Leave the scaremongering behind and argue a positive case.”
But project fear won, says Derbyshire. “It works. You lost.”But project fear won, says Derbyshire. “It works. You lost.”
Cue a short segue into the Scottish referendum’s twists and turns.Cue a short segue into the Scottish referendum’s twists and turns.
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It’s livening up a bit now. “Hang on ... I know you have no interest in the facts,” says Alan Johnson, in a comment that appears to have been directed at Liam Fox.It’s livening up a bit now. “Hang on ... I know you have no interest in the facts,” says Alan Johnson, in a comment that appears to have been directed at Liam Fox.
Fox wants to move things back to the issue of immigration: “When you have an uncontrolled figure then unavoidably put pressure on services. It’s for us in our own country to decide that number.”Fox wants to move things back to the issue of immigration: “When you have an uncontrolled figure then unavoidably put pressure on services. It’s for us in our own country to decide that number.”
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Emily Wood, a music producer from Poole has the third question. She says her disabled mum needs a bungalow but that immigrants are “bumped up the list”. Is she right to want to leave?Emily Wood, a music producer from Poole has the third question. She says her disabled mum needs a bungalow but that immigrants are “bumped up the list”. Is she right to want to leave?
Salmond: “I wouldn’t make that connection. If we have a housing crisis we should build more housing.”Salmond: “I wouldn’t make that connection. If we have a housing crisis we should build more housing.”
He ventures the scenario of Boris Johnson dislocating his jaw from overuse (laughs from audience). The Tory MP wouldn’t turn away help from doctors who had migrated here, he says.He ventures the scenario of Boris Johnson dislocating his jaw from overuse (laughs from audience). The Tory MP wouldn’t turn away help from doctors who had migrated here, he says.
Emily Wood isn’t happy, saying that she didn’t claim that migrants were not happy: “You have not got enough houses now ... so where are you going to put them?Emily Wood isn’t happy, saying that she didn’t claim that migrants were not happy: “You have not got enough houses now ... so where are you going to put them?
It then kicks off a little bit between Wood and Asma, another audience member who gets a “waheey” from Salmond when she says that she is from Aberdeen.It then kicks off a little bit between Wood and Asma, another audience member who gets a “waheey” from Salmond when she says that she is from Aberdeen.
“When it comes to housing, it is because of the EU that we have certain regulations that allow us to have spacious rooms,” says Asma, who also cites the contribution of her own parents who she says immigrated into the UK.“When it comes to housing, it is because of the EU that we have certain regulations that allow us to have spacious rooms,” says Asma, who also cites the contribution of her own parents who she says immigrated into the UK.
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