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EU referendum live: Boris Johnson v Sadiq Khan in the BBC's Great Debate EU referendum live: Boris Johnson v Sadiq Khan in the BBC's Great Debate
(35 minutes later)
9.14pm BST
21:14
Immigration questions: snap verdict
This is a complex question, and it deserves a proper debate, and we are not having it tonight, said Ruth Davidson. Too right.
Still, if we did not get a proper debate, we got some sort of shoutfest, and although Leave probably had the best of i. Boris Johnson, who is projecting authority tonight and doing well, made a mark when he invited Frances O’Grady to “come over” and later said the Remain panel agree with him about the need for further controls. Leave generally win on immigration because Remain are reluctant to defend uncontrolled immigration, but cannot credibly explain how controls will work. That said, Remain tried two defensive ploys. Attacking Leave over extremism did not seem to hit home (although Leave never answered the question about the BNP donation properly) but their charge that Leave’s stance is a con, because they will not commit to cutting immigration, did carry force.
The debate has got livelier, with Khan’s “Project Hate” line likely to make the headlines, althought it is still less personalised than the ITV one.
But it has not got more illuminating. The exchanges bear so little relation to the questions that one wonders why Dimbleby bothers to ask them.
9.05pm BST
21:05
Leadsom says the only way we will ever get immigration under control is by voting leave.
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9.04pm BST
21:04
Davidson says immigration is a complex problem. It deserves a grownup argument. We are not having that tonight, she says.
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21:04
Davidson says immigration does need to be controlled. It used to be the case that you could come and claim from day one, but that has changed, she says.
She says you do not fund schools and hospitals by crashing the economy.
Stuart says if we vote leave and take back control, we will have a £10bn dividend to spend. She says every family knows the pressure on doctors.
Khan says immigration is a concern, but leaving the EU is not the answer.
It is, says Leadsom.
Khan asks how we will have more control if we are poorer. How will we have more control if businesses go elsewhere. How will we have more control if young people do not have the chances we do.
Johnson says there is a lot of agreement here tonight. He says the other side say we need to control immigration. Jeremy Corbyn says we cannot control immigration if we are in the EU. The only way to take back control is to leave.
O’Grady says it is bit rich of Johnson to go on about low wages when his government has frozen public sector pay. She says Johnson is not promising to cut numbers. It is a con.
Rubbish, says Johnson.
Q: Have you promised to reduce numbers?
Stuart says a points system would allow the government to take back control.
Khan says we need a plan, not a slogan.
So you are not promising, says O’Grady. It’s a con.
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8.57pm BST
20:57
Question four: public services
Question from a leave supporter: As a young working class man I feel at the back of the queue for housing and public services. How many immigrants can we cope with?
O’Grady says we need to manage immigration better.
Come over, says Johnson.
O’Grady says politicians should handle these matters better. They can legislate on wages. She gets fed up with migrants being blamed. The problem was greedy banker crashing the economy, she says.
Stuart says uncontrolled immigration allows firms to get away with not investing in training.
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8.54pm BST
20:54
Khan says he wants to deal with this big fat lie once and for all. Turkey is not about to join, and until two months ago Johnson knew that. Turkey has only completed one accession chapter. At this rate it will not join until the year 3000.
Johnson says he is a Turk.
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8.53pm BST
20:53
Ruth Davidson says it is tempting to think there is one single silver bullet.
There is, says Johnson. It’s take back control.
Davidson says the points-based system would lead to more immigration.
Johnson says he wants to respond to the unnecessary invective on the other side. He quotes someone saying politicians were too quick in the past to dismiss concerns about immigration. It was Khan, he says.
Khan says there are legitimate concerns that need to be addressed, but Johnson is scaring people. He says Vote Leave are saying Turkey is set to join. He holds up a Vote Leave leaflet naming Syria and Iraq, implying they might join. That is scaremongering.
Stuart says she would like to know who the real David Cameron is. He says Turkey will not join until the year 3000, but the government is prompting Turkish accession.
Davidson says Turkish accession is not going to happen. It is not on the cards. That is what Boris said two months ago. What has changed?
It is government policy, he says.
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8.48pm BST
20:48
Question three: the NHS
We are now onto immigration.
Question from a remain supporter: How will the NHS cope if we leave the EU?
Boris Johnson says he wants to celebrate the role played by immigrants, but we need to take back control.
Sadiq Khan says he wants to take the unusual step of praising the deal Cameron achieved. He accuses Johnson of running not Project Fear, but Project Hate.
Frances O’Grady says today we learnt Vote Leave took a £600,000 donation from a former BNP member. Will they pay it back?
Andrea Leadsom says that is “unworthy of this debate”. There are millions of people with concerns about immigration who want to vote leave. As a mum, she has concerns about security.
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8.40pm BST
20:40
Economy questions: snap verdict
Was this really such a good idea? After half an hour, it feels as if this debate will only have confused people. Because it has not been so much of a debate as a soundbite-spouting contest. There were relatively few moments where the participants seemed to engage with what their opponents were saying.
As a result, it did not feel as if either side won, but that in itself is a good result for leave - because if remain cannot hammer them on this, then they are going to struggle to make headway on anything. That said, Frances O’Grady was impressive, because her expertise shone through. Gisela Stuart, however, made perhaps one of the best points so far when she said Britain did not need Brussels to legislate for women’s rights. Ruth Davidson and Sadiq Khan were the most combative, although perhaps one of the biggest contrasts with the ITV debate is remain’s reluctance to personalise their attacks on Johnson.
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8.34pm BST8.34pm BST
20:3420:34
Khan says the eurozone is growing faster than America. And our economy is enhanced by being in the EU. Khan says the eurozone is growing faster than the US, and that our economy is enhanced by being in the EU.
Johnson says it beggars belief that Remain cannot think of a single directive they would get rid of. The EU is a job-destroying machine. Just tonight Tate & Lyle said they want to come out of the EU. He says we cannot protect Tata jobs because Brussels says no. Johnson says it beggars belief that remain are unable to think of a single directive they would get rid of. The EU is a job-destroying machine. Just tonight Tate & Lyle said they wanted to leave. He says we cannot protect Tata jobs because Brussels says no.
Davidson says Leave are just asking people to trust them. They cannot say how many jobs will go, or what the trade arrangements will be. Obama said we would go to the back of the queue on trade. Davidson says leave are just asking people to trust them. They unable to say how many jobs will go, or what the trade arrangements will be. Obama said we would go to the back of the queue on trade.
Leadsom says 80% of the world’s economy is not in the single market. She says 28 member states cannot even organise a take-away curry, let alone trade deals.Leadsom says 80% of the world’s economy is not in the single market. She says 28 member states cannot even organise a take-away curry, let alone trade deals.
Khan says when you are 5ft 6 you don’t often say size matters. But it does with trade deal. If we left the EU, we would suffer. And he says Boris should know better; London businesses rely on the EU. Boris, why have you suddenly changed your mind? Khan says when you are 5ft 6 you don’t often say size matters, but it does with trade deals. If we left the EU, we would suffer. He says Johnson should know better. London businesses rely on the EU. Boris, why have you suddenly changed your mind?
Johnson says we have heard an amazing amount of running down. Remain underestimate our ability to do better deals if we are on our own. He says our entire trade policy is determind by the EU, where only 3.8% of officials are British. Johnson says we have heard an amazing amount of running down. Remain underestimate our ability to do better deals if we are on our own. He says our entire trade policy is determined by the EU, where only 3.8% of officials are British.
Davidson tries to interrupt. He won’t let her. Because of the EU, we cannot export haggis to America, he says. Davidson tries to interrupt. He won’t let her. Because of the EU, we cannot export haggis to the US, he says.
Davidson challenges him to name one country in the world that has said it will offer a better trade deal.Davidson challenges him to name one country in the world that has said it will offer a better trade deal.
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8.27pm BST8.27pm BST
20:2720:27
Question two: workers' rightsQuestion two: workers' rights
We are now taking the second question on the economy.We are now taking the second question on the economy.
Question from a remain supporter: As a black woman, I am grateful for the employment protections the EU offers. Will leaving be a slippery slope to lower standards?Question from a remain supporter: As a black woman, I am grateful for the employment protections the EU offers. Will leaving be a slippery slope to lower standards?
Leadsom says the UK has led the way in guaranteeing rights. We do not need EU leaders we cannot name to guarantee rights.Leadsom says the UK has led the way in guaranteeing rights. We do not need EU leaders we cannot name to guarantee rights.
O’Grady says too often we hear the words red tape, and what that means is getting rid of rights. Those rights were not gifted to us. People fought for them, and the EU guarantees them. People need to understand that they cover things such as the right to take time off if a child is ill. She says 2 million people got paid holidays as a result of an EU directive. Can leave guarantee that these rights will be protected?O’Grady says too often we hear the words red tape, and what that means is getting rid of rights. Those rights were not gifted to us. People fought for them, and the EU guarantees them. People need to understand that they cover things such as the right to take time off if a child is ill. She says 2 million people got paid holidays as a result of an EU directive. Can leave guarantee that these rights will be protected?
Yes, says Johnson.Yes, says Johnson.
Stuart says she has been a trade unionist for 45 years. She finds the argument that we need Brussels to protect rights extraordinary.Stuart says she has been a trade unionist for 45 years. She finds the argument that we need Brussels to protect rights extraordinary.
Khan says Stuart is wrong. Every time he and Stuart have voted for workers’s rights, they - leave Tories have voted the other way. He says Priti Patel, the pro-Brexit employment minister, has said she would like to halve workers’ regulations.Khan says Stuart is wrong. Every time he and Stuart have voted for workers’s rights, they - leave Tories have voted the other way. He says Priti Patel, the pro-Brexit employment minister, has said she would like to halve workers’ regulations.
Stuart says the most important right is the right to a job. We will never succeed when shackled to the eurozone.Stuart says the most important right is the right to a job. We will never succeed when shackled to the eurozone.
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8.22pm BST8.22pm BST
20:2220:22
Khan says all the experts say the economy would suffer if we leave. It is not unreasonable for a mum and dad worried about bills to ask what the plan is. A slogan is not a detailed plan. How would you make sure jobs won’t suffer, he asks. What is your plan?Khan says all the experts say the economy would suffer if we leave. It is not unreasonable for a mum and dad worried about bills to ask what the plan is. A slogan is not a detailed plan. How would you make sure jobs won’t suffer, he asks. What is your plan?
Leadsom says we are spending billions that go into a big black hole. All remain talk about is Project Fear. The EU has done a terrible job negotiating free trade deals.Leadsom says we are spending billions that go into a big black hole. All remain talk about is Project Fear. The EU has done a terrible job negotiating free trade deals.
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at 8.31pm BSTat 8.31pm BST
8.20pm BST
20:20
Leadsom says Unite’s Len McCluskey said the EU single market had been a giant, low wage experiment.
Davidson says we have the highest level of employment in history. And, if you want to trade quotes, Johnson’s chief economist says manufacturing will be hit. Michael Gove says he could not guarantee everyone would keep their jobs. That is not good enough.
Johnson says they are back to Project Fear.
How many jobs, Davidson shouts at him. Wanting to protect jobs is positive, she says.
Johnson says someone on the other side said immigration had driven down wages in too many places. It was Khan, he says. Johnson says he is a believer in free markets, but thinks differentials in wages have fallen too low. It would be a fine thing if people got a pay rise because we took back control.
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8.17pm BST
20:17
Frances O’Grady says the questioner asked about small firms, but many are in supply chains. The experts say business would suffer. If you do not believe the experts, listen to the shop floor. They say we cannot afford to take this gamble.
Gisela Stuart says the questioner cannot afford to lobby Brussels. That is why big firms like Brussels. Stuart Rose, the head of the remain campaign, said wages will go up if we leave.
O’Grady says workers in this country have been through a rough time. The TUC has looked at all the hard evidence. In the long run, because our economy would be hit, wages would drop by £38 a week. That is filling up your petrol tank in a small car. It’s a big hit. Don’t take the risk.
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8.14pm BST
20:14
Sadiq Khan says he is pleased Johnson is speaking to people, but that he should listen to Patrick Minford, leave’s economic adviser. He said leaving would mean the end of manufacturing. That scares me, he says.
Andrea Leadsom says if we remain, the failed euro project will cost us dearly. And the EU wants to expand to include Turkey.
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8.12pm BST
20:12
Question one: the economy
Question from a leave supporter: I run a small business and have been stifled by the amount of legislation imposed on me. What benefits are there from remaining in the EU?
Ruth Davidson says small businesses are the backbone of the economy. Business leaders want us to stay in, she says, and if you want to trade with the EU you need to obey their rules. Vote to remain in the biggest trade deal in the world.
Boris Johnson says he thinks it is extraordinary to claim we would have tariffs imposed on us if we leave. We receive around a fifth of German exports. Would they impose tariffs on us? He says he has visited many businesses, and been amazed how many want to come out. Businesses such as JCB, and James Dyson, the biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners in Germany. Tonight he is saying that staying in would be an act of economic self-harm.
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8.08pm BST
20:08
Oh Christ I've fallen asleep. This Open University video has done it #BBCDebate
8.08pm BST
20:08
This is from the Telegraph’s Asa Bennett.
Sadiq Khan's "as a lawyer" vs Gisela Stuart's "as a mother and grandmother" - who will the #BBCDebate audience like more?
8.07pm BST
20:07
Dimbleby says there will be questions on the economy, immigration and Britain’s place in the world.
Before we go to that, they will try to present the issues at stake.
They are now showing a video about the economy.
8.06pm BST
20:06
Sadiq Khan opens for remain. He says in just two days voters will make the most important decision for a generation. He namechecks his team, and says they will make a positive case for remain. Your job will be more secure if we stay, and prices in the shops will be lower. As a lawyer he has learnt to follow the evidence. All the evidence suggests we are better off in, so he would urge you to make the positive and patriotic case to vote remain.
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8.04pm BST
20:04
Dimbleby says leave won - when they drew lots to decide who goes first.
Gisela Stuart opens for leave. If we were not in, would we join. If you think not, then vote leave to take control. She is a mother and a grandmother. 50% of young people in Greece do not have a job. The only continent with a lower growth rate is Antarctica. Sometimes voting does not make much difference, but on Thursday it will.
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8.02pm BST
20:02
Dimbley introduces the panel.
They will get to make opening statements.