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Is Britain letting down its EU nationals? - live Is Britain letting down its EU nationals? - live
(35 minutes later)
2.02pm BST
14:02
See you at the same time next week!
Sarah Marsh
Thank you to all those who contributed this lunchtime. It’s been very interesting. If you want to comment further or discuss our Brexit converge more (what’s missing/ what you like) – then please do get in touch: sarah.marsh@theguardian.com
We will hold another debate at the same time next week.
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'A deep sadness that is not shifting'
Thought it would be nice to end the debate with a very honest plea from one reader (submitting through our form). It’s easy to forget that, at the end of the day, this is about people’s lives.
Since the referendum results came out me and my family have felt a deep sadness that is not shifting. It’s that kind of sadness that is already there, even before you open your eyes in the morning. Me and my partner have been living in this country for 14 and 22 years respectively. The reasons we came here were simple: the people seemed more open-minded, more accepting. We are currently seriously considering our options and it is very difficult. I will get my childhood studies degree next year and my plan was to continue my studies in Aberystwyth and hopefully become a researcher, my greatest ambition is to make a contribution to social justice. My partner has been a self-employed woodworker for 12 years now, I think if we decide to leave the country it will impact much more on him as we can’t afford to move all his workshop and business with us. We also have a 9-year-old daughter, she doesn’t really want to go anywhere because this has always been her home. The situation is very stressful, and the pain we are feeling is great. – Irene, 36, Wales
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Five-minute warning
We have five minutes left to discuss, so please make sure you get any final point in. Thanks everyone
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1.37pm BST1.37pm BST
13:3713:37
'I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown''I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown'
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
My husband, who is English, and I (Spanish), decided to move to the UK after having lived together in Spain for a few years. I wanted to get to know his country and his culture, at least as well as he knew mine. We both decided to focus on our careers over here, and spent a few years re-training. It has been a huge investment and effort on both our parts, which is now bearing its fruit. We have, obviously, paid taxes, fees and contributed to the economy and our community, same as we did when we lived in Spain. After I graduated with a First class degree, I was awarded an ESRC scholarship to complete a PhD. I have also worked as a researcher, teacher, tutor, coach and set up my own coaching company. We also have a two year old half English, half Spanish son (officially English). Would I be allowed to see him grow up? Would all of these years of working hard, sacrificing loads of other opportunities (decisions made on the basis that I was granted indefinite citizenship here) be a waste of time? Are they seriously even considering pulling the rug from us? I have always felt welcome here. Liverpool feels very much like Murcia, my home town: people here are friendly and open to people from other cultures. I have always chatted away with people at bus stops, at the supermarket, or taxi rides. Since the referendum, I am scared to open my mouth in case somebody attacks me for being a "migrant". My husband and I have found each other, we love each other, we love our son, we love both our countries and the cities we have been lucky enough to live in. We were happy and settled, and this is already tearing us apart. The level of anxiety and fear I (we) am experiencing needs to be accounted for. Stop this madness. We are people, we have families and friends here, we came here in good faith, and made our decisions and build our future on the basis of the freedom of movement principle. I feel lost, scared and unwelcome. I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I think about my son's future, our futures. This is real, it's happening. What now? What do we do?My husband, who is English, and I (Spanish), decided to move to the UK after having lived together in Spain for a few years. I wanted to get to know his country and his culture, at least as well as he knew mine. We both decided to focus on our careers over here, and spent a few years re-training. It has been a huge investment and effort on both our parts, which is now bearing its fruit. We have, obviously, paid taxes, fees and contributed to the economy and our community, same as we did when we lived in Spain. After I graduated with a First class degree, I was awarded an ESRC scholarship to complete a PhD. I have also worked as a researcher, teacher, tutor, coach and set up my own coaching company. We also have a two year old half English, half Spanish son (officially English). Would I be allowed to see him grow up? Would all of these years of working hard, sacrificing loads of other opportunities (decisions made on the basis that I was granted indefinite citizenship here) be a waste of time? Are they seriously even considering pulling the rug from us? I have always felt welcome here. Liverpool feels very much like Murcia, my home town: people here are friendly and open to people from other cultures. I have always chatted away with people at bus stops, at the supermarket, or taxi rides. Since the referendum, I am scared to open my mouth in case somebody attacks me for being a "migrant". My husband and I have found each other, we love each other, we love our son, we love both our countries and the cities we have been lucky enough to live in. We were happy and settled, and this is already tearing us apart. The level of anxiety and fear I (we) am experiencing needs to be accounted for. Stop this madness. We are people, we have families and friends here, we came here in good faith, and made our decisions and build our future on the basis of the freedom of movement principle. I feel lost, scared and unwelcome. I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I think about my son's future, our futures. This is real, it's happening. What now? What do we do?
1.27pm BST1.27pm BST
13:2713:27
This comment sums up a lot of sentiment coming through via our formThis comment sums up a lot of sentiment coming through via our form
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
To those who say that the UK government cannot do anything before starting negotiations, it may be worth reminding them that the UK is responsible for this situation. Not the EU. In the same way that the government is going to great lenghts to reassure the markets, it could easily provide a reassurance to EU citizens (I understand it cannot be set-in-stone without even exploring the mindbogginly complexity of Brexit). Instead, we have Theresa May, saying "no-one stays anywhere forever". What is that even supposed to mean? I cannot think of a more twisted and nasty way to play with people's futuresTo those who say that the UK government cannot do anything before starting negotiations, it may be worth reminding them that the UK is responsible for this situation. Not the EU. In the same way that the government is going to great lenghts to reassure the markets, it could easily provide a reassurance to EU citizens (I understand it cannot be set-in-stone without even exploring the mindbogginly complexity of Brexit). Instead, we have Theresa May, saying "no-one stays anywhere forever". What is that even supposed to mean? I cannot think of a more twisted and nasty way to play with people's futures
1.26pm BST1.26pm BST
13:2613:26
Leaving the EU might result in a downturn in my line of workLeaving the EU might result in a downturn in my line of work
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
There has been a lot of concern from those who work in the field of scienceThere has been a lot of concern from those who work in the field of science
Julien, 38, who moved to Cambridge from FranceJulien, 38, who moved to Cambridge from France
As the UK is a huge winner when it comes to science in the EU (getting lots of grants) leaving might result in a downturn in my line of work (I help scientist to analyse their data). I doubt that any future government will be able to match the level of funding and talking to friends, a lot of EU national working in science are planning to move back to the EU. My wife works in a company that sells a lot in the EU and we are not sure if they are going to stay here or move to the continent in order to avoid paying tariffs.As the UK is a huge winner when it comes to science in the EU (getting lots of grants) leaving might result in a downturn in my line of work (I help scientist to analyse their data). I doubt that any future government will be able to match the level of funding and talking to friends, a lot of EU national working in science are planning to move back to the EU. My wife works in a company that sells a lot in the EU and we are not sure if they are going to stay here or move to the continent in order to avoid paying tariffs.
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13:1613:16
Theresa May in U-turn over EU citizens in UKTheresa May in U-turn over EU citizens in UK
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
According to an article yesterday in the Financial Times (£):According to an article yesterday in the Financial Times (£):
Theresa May, the Tory leadership frontrunner, has reversed her stance towards EU citizens living in Britain, after her rivals accused her of treating them as “bargaining chips” in exit negotiations.Theresa May, the Tory leadership frontrunner, has reversed her stance towards EU citizens living in Britain, after her rivals accused her of treating them as “bargaining chips” in exit negotiations.
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1.12pm BST1.12pm BST
13:1213:12
The lack of government preparation is highlighted hereThe lack of government preparation is highlighted here
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
Be interesting to know if that process is only for EU nationals. I know a few non-EU nationals trying to get UK citizenship and they're finding it very difficult and costly. What will be the process once we leave the EU? It's ridiculous the Government, having called a referendum, never planned for this possibility. A business would have had a whole project management team set up. Oh the arrogance of our leaders...Be interesting to know if that process is only for EU nationals. I know a few non-EU nationals trying to get UK citizenship and they're finding it very difficult and costly. What will be the process once we leave the EU? It's ridiculous the Government, having called a referendum, never planned for this possibility. A business would have had a whole project management team set up. Oh the arrogance of our leaders...
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13:0713:07
Large numbers of people will have to make a lot of difficult decisions in a vaccumLarge numbers of people will have to make a lot of difficult decisions in a vaccum
I would not worry too much yetI would not worry too much yet
Large numbers of people will have to make a lot difficult decisions in a vacuum.Large numbers of people will have to make a lot difficult decisions in a vacuum.
The Brexit negotiations may not even resolve the most basic of these questions , as UK immigration law would remain exactly as it is now subject only to future amendment by a future government. Despite that EU nationals will find themselves living in a world in which their presence is at best regarded as provisional.The Brexit negotiations may not even resolve the most basic of these questions , as UK immigration law would remain exactly as it is now subject only to future amendment by a future government. Despite that EU nationals will find themselves living in a world in which their presence is at best regarded as provisional.
At what point do people stop hoping for the best and start preparing for the worst?At what point do people stop hoping for the best and start preparing for the worst?
12.57pm BST12.57pm BST
12:5712:57
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
What do London’s EU nationals really think of Brexit?What do London’s EU nationals really think of Brexit?
12.48pm BST12.48pm BST
12:4812:48
I wouldn't worry too much yet – this will take a long timeI wouldn't worry too much yet – this will take a long time
I would not worry too much yet. Until the UK exits officially and that is at least 2 1/2 years away, the EU regulations apply. Let's also face it - punctuality and quick work is not the UK's strong suit. In fact, at one level the UK is not allowed to change anything at this point even if they absolutely wanted to. At best, these are only promises and they cannot be any better than that. I think that the rules will be the same on both sides. Finally, the concern that there would be a rush of EU citizens in at the last second seems absurd. This whole episode is making the UK appear less attractive, not more. The likelihood is that at the highest levels in certain professions EU citizens will go elsewhere. So, in the end what you will have is a reverse brain drain.I would not worry too much yet. Until the UK exits officially and that is at least 2 1/2 years away, the EU regulations apply. Let's also face it - punctuality and quick work is not the UK's strong suit. In fact, at one level the UK is not allowed to change anything at this point even if they absolutely wanted to. At best, these are only promises and they cannot be any better than that. I think that the rules will be the same on both sides. Finally, the concern that there would be a rush of EU citizens in at the last second seems absurd. This whole episode is making the UK appear less attractive, not more. The likelihood is that at the highest levels in certain professions EU citizens will go elsewhere. So, in the end what you will have is a reverse brain drain.
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12:3812:38
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
An interesting comment below the line from AlternativeLogic:An interesting comment below the line from AlternativeLogic:
"We need to know what the cut-off date will be, what the requirements will be and how we can prove that we have been here prior to the referendum f.e.""We need to know what the cut-off date will be, what the requirements will be and how we can prove that we have been here prior to the referendum f.e."
The most likely date for cut-off, if there is one, will be when the UK actually exits the EU - this looks to be in about 2.5 years from now, but there is no way to be precise about this. It is quite possible that there will be no cut-off at all, depending on the deal done with the EU about movement of people. It should be remembered that lots of UK pensioners retire to the continental countries - it would not be popular if this was made more difficult.The most likely date for cut-off, if there is one, will be when the UK actually exits the EU - this looks to be in about 2.5 years from now, but there is no way to be precise about this. It is quite possible that there will be no cut-off at all, depending on the deal done with the EU about movement of people. It should be remembered that lots of UK pensioners retire to the continental countries - it would not be popular if this was made more difficult.
As to proof of current residence - something like paying rent on a flat, utility bill or whatever would be sufficient. It could be that in a handful of cases some dispute could arise, and a court decision would be needed, but for 99+% of people the fact that you have been in the UK for some time will not be challenged, and life will go on as normal.As to proof of current residence - something like paying rent on a flat, utility bill or whatever would be sufficient. It could be that in a handful of cases some dispute could arise, and a court decision would be needed, but for 99+% of people the fact that you have been in the UK for some time will not be challenged, and life will go on as normal.
I believe everyone here from the rest of the EU should be given "indefinite leave to remain" immediately and it seems to me likely that this is what will happen after things settle down a bit.I believe everyone here from the rest of the EU should be given "indefinite leave to remain" immediately and it seems to me likely that this is what will happen after things settle down a bit.
My wife is from Lithuania and her father lives with us - I am not at all worried that his legal status here will ever be a problem.My wife is from Lithuania and her father lives with us - I am not at all worried that his legal status here will ever be a problem.
All the best, ALAll the best, AL
12.28pm BST12.28pm BST
12:2812:28
Brits living abroadBrits living abroad
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
We also heard from those who have migrated to countries around Europe about how they feel.We also heard from those who have migrated to countries around Europe about how they feel.
Paula , 44, who moved to SwedenPaula , 44, who moved to Sweden
As a British citizen living outside the UK, I no longer feel welcome in the UK. I have read too many times that many back home now see us as traitors, as having abandoned our country and how we shouldn’t have any say in UK decisions. I get the impression that the UK can’t wait to wash it’s hands of us.As a British citizen living outside the UK, I no longer feel welcome in the UK. I have read too many times that many back home now see us as traitors, as having abandoned our country and how we shouldn’t have any say in UK decisions. I get the impression that the UK can’t wait to wash it’s hands of us.
Valerie, who lives in ItalyValerie, who lives in Italy
My state-educated bilingual British-Italian daughter, an EU student, is an undergraduate at a Welsh university and although her funding has been guaranteed for the next two years, it will certainly affect any decisions about whether to undertake further studies in UK. She is a science student and future career possibilities now look to have been severely curtailed because of probable EU funding cuts. She is currently researching climate change in Sweden thanks to the Erasmus programme and we are grateful that she was eligible for this; I hope UK students of the future get the same opportunities.My state-educated bilingual British-Italian daughter, an EU student, is an undergraduate at a Welsh university and although her funding has been guaranteed for the next two years, it will certainly affect any decisions about whether to undertake further studies in UK. She is a science student and future career possibilities now look to have been severely curtailed because of probable EU funding cuts. She is currently researching climate change in Sweden thanks to the Erasmus programme and we are grateful that she was eligible for this; I hope UK students of the future get the same opportunities.
This is a major blow to my identity; the rise of racism across England makes me feel deeply ashamed. I have based my entire adult life on a belief in Europe and the opportunities afforded by free movement – only to find it is now under threat. I moved to Italy to work in my 20s and subsequently made my life here with my Italian partner. My work – first as a teacher and then a travel writer – has always relied heavily on my bicultural experience. I have never drawn benefits in either country of any kind.This is a major blow to my identity; the rise of racism across England makes me feel deeply ashamed. I have based my entire adult life on a belief in Europe and the opportunities afforded by free movement – only to find it is now under threat. I moved to Italy to work in my 20s and subsequently made my life here with my Italian partner. My work – first as a teacher and then a travel writer – has always relied heavily on my bicultural experience. I have never drawn benefits in either country of any kind.
I want to express my total solidarity for all EU citizens in UK, the vast majority of whom are irreplaceable members of society. I am grateful for their contributions in all areas, including the restaurant trade, academia & the NHS. While not personally experiencing racism of any kind here in Italy, I have a good idea of how they feel.I want to express my total solidarity for all EU citizens in UK, the vast majority of whom are irreplaceable members of society. I am grateful for their contributions in all areas, including the restaurant trade, academia & the NHS. While not personally experiencing racism of any kind here in Italy, I have a good idea of how they feel.
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