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Version 2 Version 3
Labour leadership debate: Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith face off in Gateshead – live Labour leadership debate: Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith face off in Gateshead – live
(35 minutes later)
8.50pm BST
20:50
Corbyn gives his closing summary
He says the Labour party has had many victories under his leadership, citing councils and mayoral elections across Britain.
We have to build and transform our society and give people the confidence things can be done differently in Britain.
There must be a new housing policy, re-nationalisation of the railways and a “national minimum wage that means something, £10 that the TUC recommends.
The applause is much louder for Corbyn, huge cheers and whoops from the crowd.
8.47pm BST
20:47
Smith gives his closing summary
Smith says he grew up in Wales, under a Tory government which wanted to break trade unions, underfund the NHS and he says the same is happening now.
They are still intending to privatise the NHS. They are still stripping away wages and workers rights of ordinary people. Those people can’t wait 18 years, they can’t wait 18 minutes for another Labour government.
I am very clear I want to lead a Labour government, introduce fair taxation, deliver a revolution in workers rights and proper fair funding for every corner of Britain. Getting us off our knees and turning us once more into the engine room for the global economy. But we can only do that if we are in power.
I will restore us to a credible and radical socialist Labour government in waiting. If you put your faith in me, I will not let you down.
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8.44pm BST
20:44
Smith says his first act of leadership would be “to do something that Jeremy can’t do, bring together a full shadow cabinet of talents from across the party.... Jeremy can’t do that and that’s why we need to change the leader of the Labour party.”
He is being roundly booed for that analysis by members of the audience. Ridge asks both if they would serve in each others’ shadow cabinets.
“I think it’s highly unlikely Owen would offer me anything,” Corbyn says.
I would offer, as I did last September, positions that ensure the political spectrum is represented.
Smith says he has been “absolutely clear he would offer you a job in a shadow cabinet” but said he would not return to Corbyn’s front bench.
I have lost confidence in you, but I would serve Labour on the backbenches because I am Labour to my bones and I will always be Labour.
I would not, as Jeremy has done, vote against my party 500 times. I will do what I have always done is vote Labour.
Corbyn says that is disappointing. He said he would have thought Smith would want to continue the work he did in work and pensions. “I don’t want it to be futile work,” he says.
8.34pm BST
20:34
Do you think the UK should maintain its 2% of GDP in defence spending?
Corbyn says he would like to live in a world where we spend “a lot less... I recognise there has to be a level of spending but I would hope in the long term to reduce it.”
Smith says he would maintain 2%, which is a Nato target.
We live in a more volatile world... when I see the prospect of Donald Trump in power in America, when I see Vladimir Putin in charge in Russia, I don’t think now is a time for Britain to shirk its responsibilities.
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8.32pm BST
20:32
Can war ever be justified?
Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”.
He says he agrees with Corbyn there should be a war powers act to ensure parliament will always have a vote on matters of future wars. But he says there have been times that the UK should have intervened, citing Rwanda.
Corbyn says he can never say never, because there have been wars of liberation which should be fought. But he says there has to be a holistic approach to war and peace, mentioning arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the nation fights a war in Yemen.
The Chilcott report makes pretty sobering reading.. how we ended up in a war we knew was questionably legal.. We have to have a different, less aggressive foreign policy.
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8.26pm BST
20:26
Smith is getting frustrated with Corbyn in these final minutes, as Corbyn says the party “has to put forward economic policies that bring about justice, that we agree on.”
Smith says there has to be “more than rhetoric, Jeremy...”
We will not bring back the confidence of the British people unless we have a concrete programme. The rhetoric will appeal to our base but it won’t win us back Nuneaton, Cardiff North...
Corbyn says that the party should “get out there and involve people in developing an economic strategy. “It’s all there.” Smith says it isn’t.
We will not be able to transform the life chances of a single child in this country if we are not in power.
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8.20pm BST
20:20
Ridge asks if they accept the premise of the question, whether they think that people distrusted Labour on the economy.
People were confused about Labour’s stance on the economy, Corbyn says.
If we are saying we are intending to have good quality public-funded services, PFI cannot rip off our health and education service, we are going to promote industry, I think that’s a very strong message.
Smith says it was a lie that the former Labour government caused the economic crash. “We should have been stronger challenging that, much much stronger.”
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8.17pm BST8.17pm BST
20:1720:17
What actions will you take to restore Labour's economic credibilities?What actions will you take to restore Labour's economic credibilities?
Corbyn begins with tax avoidance and tax evasion. He says that a Labour party must show it will chase down tax avoidance, learn the lessons from the Panama Papers leak, and fund proper public services.Corbyn begins with tax avoidance and tax evasion. He says that a Labour party must show it will chase down tax avoidance, learn the lessons from the Panama Papers leak, and fund proper public services.
Smith says he wants to reintroduce the 50p tax rate, he would block cuts to inheritance and capital gains tax.Smith says he wants to reintroduce the 50p tax rate, he would block cuts to inheritance and capital gains tax.
He repeats his previous pledge for a wealth tax, he says it would be a surcharge on unearned income of people earning, which will fund the NHS.He repeats his previous pledge for a wealth tax, he says it would be a surcharge on unearned income of people earning, which will fund the NHS.
8.13pm BST8.13pm BST
20:1320:13
Lighting update! The dimness is gone and the full lights are back.Lighting update! The dimness is gone and the full lights are back.
Lights fully back on so #LabourLeadership candidates are no longer having their identities protected at hustings. pic.twitter.com/0yMwzioqR9Lights fully back on so #LabourLeadership candidates are no longer having their identities protected at hustings. pic.twitter.com/0yMwzioqR9
8.12pm BST8.12pm BST
20:1220:12
How will each candidate make the world tomorrow better than yesterday?How will each candidate make the world tomorrow better than yesterday?
A question from a young person...A question from a young person...
Smith says the first thing to tackle is the Tories’ idea of a living wage. He says he would introduce a “proper” living wage of £8.25 an hour, rising to more than £10 over a five year period, and make sure that it applied to under 25s as well.Smith says the first thing to tackle is the Tories’ idea of a living wage. He says he would introduce a “proper” living wage of £8.25 an hour, rising to more than £10 over a five year period, and make sure that it applied to under 25s as well.
Corbyn says it is not true that the world is a worse place than decades ago, but that redistribution of wealth is the problem.Corbyn says it is not true that the world is a worse place than decades ago, but that redistribution of wealth is the problem.
The world is an infinitely richer place. Technology has moved us on immeasurably, what hasn’t moved on is the policy of redistribution.The world is an infinitely richer place. Technology has moved us on immeasurably, what hasn’t moved on is the policy of redistribution.
I want to see an economic strategy that redistributes wealth... it’s a question of making sure the next generation is better off, not worse off.I want to see an economic strategy that redistributes wealth... it’s a question of making sure the next generation is better off, not worse off.
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8.08pm BST8.08pm BST
20:0820:08
Corbyn is being asked about free schools and academies. He says he would not close them, but bring them back into local authority control.Corbyn is being asked about free schools and academies. He says he would not close them, but bring them back into local authority control.
Smith says too that no schools should be closed down but said the government had sought to “subvert” Labour’s academy programme, because the Conservatives “don’t believe in comprehensives.”Smith says too that no schools should be closed down but said the government had sought to “subvert” Labour’s academy programme, because the Conservatives “don’t believe in comprehensives.”
8.03pm BST
20:03
Smith - Mayoral elections should have had at least one all women shortlist
Both are asked if they would support an all-woman shortlist in the regional mayoral selection process.
Corbyn says potentially, but says that was for the local parties to decide.
Smith says he disagrees. “The party leader should have insist on one of those [mayoralties], at least, being an all woman shortlist.”
We do need to have that positive discrimination or we don’t get women elected, he says.
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8.00pm BST
20:00
How will you ensure a more gender equal Labour party?
Corbyn says he believes female candidates should be “selected where we can” but he said there should be broader policies in the party for greater gender equality across society, citing Stem careers for more girls.
Smith says the Labour party “has not been good enough” but says it should be proud of its record in recruiting female MPs and balanced cabinets.
Truthfully we have to do a lot more. The culture of our party has not been encouraging enough, it is tough to be a woman in politics and we have to encourage and nurture more.
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7.57pm BST
19:57
What is your plan to win back voters from Ukip especially those whose primary concerns are about immigration?
Smith says the problem is in communities where there has been “long-term, systemic underinvestment”.
He says the secret is a socialist programme that invests in those communities, in school places, healthcare and then underlying concerns about immigration would be eroded.
Corbyn says the undercutting of wages by the exploitation of migrant workers has to be dealt with. He says a migrant impact fund should be reintroduced, which could be partly funded by the EU until we leave. But Labour also has to take on Ukip, he says.
In reality, the blame culture from Ukip cannot deliver one house, one nurse, one doctor, one school or anything else.
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7.54pm BST
19:54
Corbyn says the Labour party lost the last election despite pledges to continue austerity and the public sector pay freeze.
We have forced a lot of U-turns. We could be forcing a lot more and I hope we will do when the leadership election is over.
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7.52pm BST
19:52
Bitter clashes between Corbyn and Smith over the polls and electability. Corbyn says Labour was ahead in the polls before the resignations of shadow cabinet members, that it has won every byelection and has increased majorities.
Smith says that isn’t true.
We have to be honest with ourselves, comrades, we lost 18 seats in the council election, Cameron made 300 gains.
We are at 26% in the polls, the lowest since 1982 when I was 12 years old. That’s the reality in this country. Only a third of Labour voters think you would make a better PM than Theresa May. That’s the reality.
Corbyn says that the Labour party and Labour movement will put together a manifesto that will show it can deliver for all of those people and all communities.
Smith says he resigned “because you cannot lead us back to power, you could not fulfil the basic task ... of working with your colleagues. You undermined colleagues at every turn.”
He says as shadow work and pensions secretary he had one meeting with Corbyn in nine months, despite the fight on PIP and tax credits and the eventual Tory U-turns.
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7.45pm BST
19:45
What music do you listen to on your iPod?
This is quite a change of tone! Corbyn says he was writing to Beethoven’s 5th last night.
He goes on, enthusiastically:
What we have to ensure all our events as a party are accompanied by music, by dance, by art and by culture. And have a society accompanied by dance, music, art and culture.
Smith says he keeps getting accused of being a Blairite, so he won’t say: “Things can only get better.” But he says his favourite band at the moment is the Vaccines, and he thinks his theme tune should be their song I’m No Teenage Icon.
It’d be ironic obviously, Jeremy.
Owen Smith says he wants to encourage more idealism. “Some of those young people who have been enthused are going to be let down, because unless we can translate that into power, we won’t be able to get that world they want.”
This is an open goal for Corbyn.
Owen, we’ve recruited 300,000 people to the party ...
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7.41pm BST
19:41
What policies and proposals will you put in place to address Britain's obligations on climate change while addressing the current crisis in energy supply?
The irony of this question while the hustings is still dimly lit has not been lost on the crowd.
Smith says that he would consider a national renewables company, harnessing wind and wave power. “That’s the kind of big idea we need for the big challenges we face.”
Corbyn says we have to “encourage everyone to think about innovation”. He cites houses in his constituency that are heated by excess energy from the London underground.
“We also have to recognise the need for an environmental approach which is also about sustaining our biodiversity and ecosystem,” he says.
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7.38pm BST
19:38
Power cut in the building
The hustings is plunged into darkness. Sophy Ridge quips: “Maybe it is time to talk about the energy supply?”
Members of the audience are taking out there phones to use as torches ...
#Labourdebate plunges into darkness. `I'm the tall one' says @OwenSmith_MP. `Let ther be light says @jeremycorbyn. And still there was none.
Power cut at the Corbyn-Smith hustings - pitch black, now emergency mood lighting. Current question - energy policy. #LabourLeadership
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7.34pm BST
19:34
Both are asked about Trident. Both have made their views on this well known before: Corbyn says he is opposed to the renewal because they are “weapons of mass destruction” and the renewal has handed the government a blank cheque; Smith says he wants to see a nuclear free world, but he says he does not believe in unilateral disarmament.
“My history tells me that isn’t going to work, that unfortunately we will need to retain them.” He says he will vote to renew “with a heavy heart”.
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7.32pm BST
19:32
What would you do to keep Britain safe?
Corbyn says we must have a foreign policy “based on human rights, international law, so we become known as a force that is determined to make sure the universal declaration is enforced in all places”.
He gets a huge cheer when he says he opposed the Iraq War, saying foreign policy has consequences.
Smith says police investment is important, and commits to the 2% of GDP on defence spending that is recommended by Nato. But he says more investment also needs to go into community relations.
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