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| Version 4 | Version 5 |
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| Labour leadership debate: Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith face off in Gateshead – as it happened | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 9.31pm BST | |
| 21:31 | |
| Summary | |
| These were the key clashes at the leadership hustings tonight in Gateshead | |
| Europe | |
| Corbyn said Labour must accept the results of the EU referendum and now focus on building new relationships with sister parties and unions all across Europe. | |
| A referendum has taken place and I think we have to recognise that, whatever we feel about it, there is a result from that referendum which we have to work with. | |
| But Smith came out swinging for the Labour leader on his lukewarm support for the EU, saying he had described his support before the result as 7/10 for the EU, but said he was now “10 out of 10” for leaving. | |
| We should still be fighting harder, and if I were the leader I would be saying to the country ‘let’s negotiate hard, let’s demand that our mandate, because our people voted In by and large, is properly observed, let’s argue alongside the Tories for a proper Brexit’. | |
| Smith says he believes that shows Corbyn “never really bought into the idea of remaining in the European Union.” | |
| “Are you becoming a mind reader?” Corbyn asks. Smith says he does not need to be a mind reader because Corbyn had opposed the EU for 30 years. | |
| During the referendum you seemed to have undergone a Damascene conversion. | |
| Gender equality | |
| Labour have just selected four men as candidates for regional mayoral elections next May and both candidates were quizzed on what the party could do to ensure greater gender equality. | |
| Particularly, both were asked if there should have been some all women shortlists for the mayoral selection processes. | |
| Corbyn says he believes it was not the leader’s job to decide on AWS for regional mayors, which should be up to the local party. | |
| Smith, however, said he as party leader would have insisted on at least one all women shortlist. | |
| The party leader should have insist on one of those [mayoralties], at least, being an all woman shortlist. | |
| Leadership | |
| Smith’s key argument in areas where both men seemed to agree in principle was about leadership and the electibility of the party. | |
| All of the policies we want to put in place all of the principles we hold dear are worth nought because we will not be able to translate any of that into power. | |
| Corbyn, whose team have launched a rebuttal website this evening to challenge claims he is not successful electorally, said Smith was ignoring the huge surge in membership under his leadership. | |
| Owen, our party is a strong party, our party is a big party, our campaigning abilities are immense if we work together on those campaign. | |
| But Smith said the current tactics were reminiscent of the time the party was out of power for 18 years. | |
| We’ve had mass rallies, we’ve had a big party and we’ve lost successive elections. We know how this one ends, Jeremy, and it doesn’t end well for the working people of Britain. It’s not about the t-shirts we wear and the badges on our lapels. | |
| “I think people should wear the t-shirs they want to,” responded Corbyn, calmly. | |
| Defence | |
| Corbyn says we must have a foreign policy “based on human rights, international law, so we become known as a force that is determined to make sure the universal declaration is enforced in all places”. | |
| He says he would aim to eventually lower defence spending, below the 2% of GDP that Nato asks its members to spend. Later, in a discussion about whether he would ever support military action, Corbyn said he would never rule out the possibility, but said there had to be better checks and balances. | |
| The Chilcott report makes pretty sobering reading.. how we ended up in a war we knew was questionably legal.. We have to have a different, less aggressive foreign policy. | |
| Smith says he would maintain 2%. | |
| We live in a more volatile world... when I see the prospect of Donald Trump in power in America, when I see Vladimir Putin in charge in Russia, I don’t think now is a time for Britain to shirk its responsibilities. | |
| That’s all from me tonight, thank you for reading and for your comments. | |
| 9.17pm BST | 9.17pm BST |
| 21:17 | 21:17 |
| Frances Perraudin | Frances Perraudin |
| My colleague Frances Perraudin has been chatting to supporters and audience members both before and after the debate. Here’s what she’s filed. | My colleague Frances Perraudin has been chatting to supporters and audience members both before and after the debate. Here’s what she’s filed. |
| Clutching Momentum and socialist party banners, and placards reading ‘Geordies got ya back Corbyn’, the crowd swarmed around the Labour leader as he got out of his car. Owen Smith received no such welcome. | Clutching Momentum and socialist party banners, and placards reading ‘Geordies got ya back Corbyn’, the crowd swarmed around the Labour leader as he got out of his car. Owen Smith received no such welcome. |
| Gavin Thompson, 29, an out-of-work civil engineer and organiser for Momentum Tyne and Wear didn’t get a ticket to the debate, but has come to show support for the Labour leader. He described the leadership election as “ugly and awful”.“We’re going to destroy the opposition,” he said. “I’m going to a put a little bet on a 75%-80% win. It’s been a pointless race and it’s only served to damage the Labour party,” he says.The audience of 450 in the hotel’s Gateshead suite was chosen at random from applications from local party members, with 15 delegates invited from each of the two campaign teams. | Gavin Thompson, 29, an out-of-work civil engineer and organiser for Momentum Tyne and Wear didn’t get a ticket to the debate, but has come to show support for the Labour leader. He described the leadership election as “ugly and awful”.“We’re going to destroy the opposition,” he said. “I’m going to a put a little bet on a 75%-80% win. It’s been a pointless race and it’s only served to damage the Labour party,” he says.The audience of 450 in the hotel’s Gateshead suite was chosen at random from applications from local party members, with 15 delegates invited from each of the two campaign teams. |
| Speaking after the debate, Nick Gilks, a retired police officer, said the evening’s event hadn’t changed his mind and that he would be voting for Corbyn. “I didn’t know who he was when I first went to the hustings last year,” he said. | Speaking after the debate, Nick Gilks, a retired police officer, said the evening’s event hadn’t changed his mind and that he would be voting for Corbyn. “I didn’t know who he was when I first went to the hustings last year,” he said. |
| “I know him now and there was nothing I saw in there tonight that is going to change my mind and I’m not a trot.”“I find the Corbyn hysteria quite irritating, regardless of what you think [of the candidates],” says one woman, who asked not to be named. “[The audience is] just not listening. I went in there with an open mind but the hysteria really was making me switch off.” | “I know him now and there was nothing I saw in there tonight that is going to change my mind and I’m not a trot.”“I find the Corbyn hysteria quite irritating, regardless of what you think [of the candidates],” says one woman, who asked not to be named. “[The audience is] just not listening. I went in there with an open mind but the hysteria really was making me switch off.” |
| 8.58pm BST | 8.58pm BST |
| 20:58 | 20:58 |
| Corbyn’s team have sent a friendly tweet to Owen Smith, despite that bitterness in the last few minutes where Smith made it clear he would not serve in the shadow cabinet. | Corbyn’s team have sent a friendly tweet to Owen Smith, despite that bitterness in the last few minutes where Smith made it clear he would not serve in the shadow cabinet. |
| Great to have a policy focussed debate, thanks to @OwenSmith_MP, @UKLabour staff and all watching in Gateshead and online #LabourHustings | Great to have a policy focussed debate, thanks to @OwenSmith_MP, @UKLabour staff and all watching in Gateshead and online #LabourHustings |
| A Smith campaign source texts to say they believe the contrast between the two candidates showed up tonight. “Owen was crystal clear on what he’d invest in the NHS and where the money would come from,” he said. “Stark contrast with Jeremy.” | A Smith campaign source texts to say they believe the contrast between the two candidates showed up tonight. “Owen was crystal clear on what he’d invest in the NHS and where the money would come from,” he said. “Stark contrast with Jeremy.” |
| Smith camp says their man “demonstrated that he will be a radical and credible leader, ready to take the fight to the Tories, he set out detailed policies, not slogans, that will appeal to people and transform our country. | |
| “And he was realistic about the Labour Party’s abysmal polling position - while Jeremy Corbyn repeated myths that we are doing well, making claims about polling that have no basis in reality.” | |
| However, the Corbyn camp are extremely confident they won that hustings, and last week’s too. “The look on Owen Smith and his team’s faces at the end said it all - 2 nil to Jeremy,” one campaign source said. | |
| “All they have is Project Fear and Project Smear and when they don’t work they just talk down the party. It’s a toxic strategy when you’re up against Project Hope.” | |
| The Corbyn ally said it was a “massive blunder” for Smith to admit he would not serve in a Corbyn shadow cabinet. “How can you stand in an election and refuse to accept the outcome? He is basically now trying to hold the members to ransom.” | |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.54pm BST | |
| 8.57pm BST | 8.57pm BST |
| 20:57 | 20:57 |
| We’re finished now in Gateshead, here’s some of the analysis from the Twitter political commentariat. | We’re finished now in Gateshead, here’s some of the analysis from the Twitter political commentariat. |
| From the Mirror’s Ben Glaze | From the Mirror’s Ben Glaze |
| Have to wonder at the value of #LabourLeadership hustings. I suspect they reinforce what people already think rather than change any minds. | Have to wonder at the value of #LabourLeadership hustings. I suspect they reinforce what people already think rather than change any minds. |
| Certainly the audience in the room seems overwhelmingly to have come to support their man rather than learn anything #LabourLeadership | Certainly the audience in the room seems overwhelmingly to have come to support their man rather than learn anything #LabourLeadership |
| From the BBC’s Richard Moss | From the BBC’s Richard Moss |
| .@jeremycorbyn clearly has more support in the room as Gateshead hustings wraps up with prolonged standing ovation.l for him. | .@jeremycorbyn clearly has more support in the room as Gateshead hustings wraps up with prolonged standing ovation.l for him. |
| From the Huffington Post’s Paul Waugh | From the Huffington Post’s Paul Waugh |
| The boo-ing this year really is a new phenomenon. I chaired one of the Lab leadership (+deputy) hustings last yr + not a single boo. | The boo-ing this year really is a new phenomenon. I chaired one of the Lab leadership (+deputy) hustings last yr + not a single boo. |
| From the Telegraph’s Ben Riley-Smith | From the Telegraph’s Ben Riley-Smith |
| Labour's crisis in a nutshell. Owen Smith says "power" not badges is what's needed to enact change. Audience boos. | Labour's crisis in a nutshell. Owen Smith says "power" not badges is what's needed to enact change. Audience boos. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.03pm BST | at 9.03pm BST |
| 8.50pm BST | 8.50pm BST |
| 20:50 | 20:50 |
| Corbyn gives his closing summary | Corbyn gives his closing summary |
| He says the Labour party has had many victories under his leadership, citing councils and mayoral elections across Britain. | He says the Labour party has had many victories under his leadership, citing councils and mayoral elections across Britain. |
| We have to build and transform our society and give people the confidence things can be done differently in Britain. | We have to build and transform our society and give people the confidence things can be done differently in Britain. |
| There must be a new housing policy, re-nationalisation of the railways and a “national minimum wage that means something, £10 that the TUC recommends. | There must be a new housing policy, re-nationalisation of the railways and a “national minimum wage that means something, £10 that the TUC recommends. |
| The applause is much louder for Corbyn, huge cheers and whoops from the crowd. | The applause is much louder for Corbyn, huge cheers and whoops from the crowd. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.57pm BST | at 8.57pm BST |
| 8.47pm BST | 8.47pm BST |
| 20:47 | 20:47 |
| Smith gives his closing summary | Smith gives his closing summary |
| Smith says he grew up in Wales, under a Tory government which wanted to break trade unions, underfund the NHS and he says the same is happening now. | Smith says he grew up in Wales, under a Tory government which wanted to break trade unions, underfund the NHS and he says the same is happening now. |
| They are still intending to privatise the NHS. They are still stripping away wages and workers rights of ordinary people. Those people can’t wait 18 years, they can’t wait 18 minutes for another Labour government. | They are still intending to privatise the NHS. They are still stripping away wages and workers rights of ordinary people. Those people can’t wait 18 years, they can’t wait 18 minutes for another Labour government. |
| I am very clear I want to lead a Labour government, introduce fair taxation, deliver a revolution in workers rights and proper fair funding for every corner of Britain. Getting us off our knees and turning us once more into the engine room for the global economy. But we can only do that if we are in power. | I am very clear I want to lead a Labour government, introduce fair taxation, deliver a revolution in workers rights and proper fair funding for every corner of Britain. Getting us off our knees and turning us once more into the engine room for the global economy. But we can only do that if we are in power. |
| I will restore us to a credible and radical socialist Labour government in waiting. If you put your faith in me, I will not let you down. | I will restore us to a credible and radical socialist Labour government in waiting. If you put your faith in me, I will not let you down. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.56pm BST | at 8.56pm BST |
| 8.44pm BST | 8.44pm BST |
| 20:44 | 20:44 |
| Smith says his first act of leadership would be “to do something that Jeremy can’t do, bring together a full shadow cabinet of talents from across the party.... Jeremy can’t do that and that’s why we need to change the leader of the Labour party.” | Smith says his first act of leadership would be “to do something that Jeremy can’t do, bring together a full shadow cabinet of talents from across the party.... Jeremy can’t do that and that’s why we need to change the leader of the Labour party.” |
| He is being roundly booed for that analysis by members of the audience. Ridge asks both if they would serve in each others’ shadow cabinets. | He is being roundly booed for that analysis by members of the audience. Ridge asks both if they would serve in each others’ shadow cabinets. |
| “I think it’s highly unlikely Owen would offer me anything,” Corbyn says. | “I think it’s highly unlikely Owen would offer me anything,” Corbyn says. |
| I would offer, as I did last September, positions that ensure the political spectrum is represented. | I would offer, as I did last September, positions that ensure the political spectrum is represented. |
| Smith says he has been “absolutely clear he would offer you a job in a shadow cabinet” but said he would not return to Corbyn’s front bench. | Smith says he has been “absolutely clear he would offer you a job in a shadow cabinet” but said he would not return to Corbyn’s front bench. |
| I have lost confidence in you, but I would serve Labour on the backbenches because I am Labour to my bones and I will always be Labour. | I have lost confidence in you, but I would serve Labour on the backbenches because I am Labour to my bones and I will always be Labour. |
| I would not, as Jeremy has done, vote against my party 500 times. I will do what I have always done is vote Labour. | I would not, as Jeremy has done, vote against my party 500 times. I will do what I have always done is vote Labour. |
| Corbyn says that is disappointing. He said he would have thought Smith would want to continue the work he did in work and pensions. “I don’t want it to be futile work,” he says. | Corbyn says that is disappointing. He said he would have thought Smith would want to continue the work he did in work and pensions. “I don’t want it to be futile work,” he says. |
| 8.34pm BST | 8.34pm BST |
| 20:34 | 20:34 |
| Do you think the UK should maintain its 2% of GDP in defence spending? | Do you think the UK should maintain its 2% of GDP in defence spending? |
| Corbyn says he would like to live in a world where we spend “a lot less... I recognise there has to be a level of spending but I would hope in the long term to reduce it.” | Corbyn says he would like to live in a world where we spend “a lot less... I recognise there has to be a level of spending but I would hope in the long term to reduce it.” |
| Smith says he would maintain 2%, which is a Nato target. | Smith says he would maintain 2%, which is a Nato target. |
| We live in a more volatile world... when I see the prospect of Donald Trump in power in America, when I see Vladimir Putin in charge in Russia, I don’t think now is a time for Britain to shirk its responsibilities. | We live in a more volatile world... when I see the prospect of Donald Trump in power in America, when I see Vladimir Putin in charge in Russia, I don’t think now is a time for Britain to shirk its responsibilities. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.36pm BST | at 8.36pm BST |
| 8.32pm BST | 8.32pm BST |
| 20:32 | 20:32 |
| Can war ever be justified? | Can war ever be justified? |
| Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”. | Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”. |
| He says he agrees with Corbyn there should be a war powers act to ensure parliament will always have a vote on matters of future wars. But he says there have been times that the UK should have intervened, citing Rwanda. | He says he agrees with Corbyn there should be a war powers act to ensure parliament will always have a vote on matters of future wars. But he says there have been times that the UK should have intervened, citing Rwanda. |
| Corbyn says he can never say never, because there have been wars of liberation which should be fought. But he says there has to be a holistic approach to war and peace, mentioning arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the nation fights a war in Yemen. | Corbyn says he can never say never, because there have been wars of liberation which should be fought. But he says there has to be a holistic approach to war and peace, mentioning arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the nation fights a war in Yemen. |
| The Chilcott report makes pretty sobering reading.. how we ended up in a war we knew was questionably legal.. We have to have a different, less aggressive foreign policy. | The Chilcott report makes pretty sobering reading.. how we ended up in a war we knew was questionably legal.. We have to have a different, less aggressive foreign policy. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.33pm BST | at 8.33pm BST |
| 8.26pm BST | 8.26pm BST |
| 20:26 | 20:26 |
| Smith is getting frustrated with Corbyn in these final minutes, as Corbyn says the party “has to put forward economic policies that bring about justice, that we agree on.” | Smith is getting frustrated with Corbyn in these final minutes, as Corbyn says the party “has to put forward economic policies that bring about justice, that we agree on.” |
| Smith says there has to be “more than rhetoric, Jeremy...” | Smith says there has to be “more than rhetoric, Jeremy...” |
| We will not bring back the confidence of the British people unless we have a concrete programme. The rhetoric will appeal to our base but it won’t win us back Nuneaton, Cardiff North... | We will not bring back the confidence of the British people unless we have a concrete programme. The rhetoric will appeal to our base but it won’t win us back Nuneaton, Cardiff North... |
| Corbyn says that the party should “get out there and involve people in developing an economic strategy. “It’s all there.” Smith says it isn’t. | Corbyn says that the party should “get out there and involve people in developing an economic strategy. “It’s all there.” Smith says it isn’t. |
| We will not be able to transform the life chances of a single child in this country if we are not in power. | We will not be able to transform the life chances of a single child in this country if we are not in power. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.47pm BST | at 8.47pm BST |
| 8.20pm BST | 8.20pm BST |
| 20:20 | 20:20 |
| Ridge asks if they accept the premise of the question, whether they think that people distrusted Labour on the economy. | Ridge asks if they accept the premise of the question, whether they think that people distrusted Labour on the economy. |
| People were confused about Labour’s stance on the economy, Corbyn says. | People were confused about Labour’s stance on the economy, Corbyn says. |
| If we are saying we are intending to have good quality public-funded services, PFI cannot rip off our health and education service, we are going to promote industry, I think that’s a very strong message. | If we are saying we are intending to have good quality public-funded services, PFI cannot rip off our health and education service, we are going to promote industry, I think that’s a very strong message. |
| Smith says it was a lie that the former Labour government caused the economic crash. “We should have been stronger challenging that, much much stronger.” | Smith says it was a lie that the former Labour government caused the economic crash. “We should have been stronger challenging that, much much stronger.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.21pm BST | at 8.21pm BST |
| 8.17pm BST | 8.17pm BST |
| 20:17 | 20:17 |
| What actions will you take to restore Labour's economic credibilities? | What actions will you take to restore Labour's economic credibilities? |
| Corbyn begins with tax avoidance and tax evasion. He says that a Labour party must show it will chase down tax avoidance, learn the lessons from the Panama Papers leak, and fund proper public services. | Corbyn begins with tax avoidance and tax evasion. He says that a Labour party must show it will chase down tax avoidance, learn the lessons from the Panama Papers leak, and fund proper public services. |
| Smith says he wants to reintroduce the 50p tax rate, he would block cuts to inheritance and capital gains tax. | Smith says he wants to reintroduce the 50p tax rate, he would block cuts to inheritance and capital gains tax. |
| He repeats his previous pledge for a wealth tax, he says it would be a surcharge on unearned income of people earning, which will fund the NHS. | He repeats his previous pledge for a wealth tax, he says it would be a surcharge on unearned income of people earning, which will fund the NHS. |
| 8.13pm BST | 8.13pm BST |
| 20:13 | 20:13 |
| Lighting update! The dimness is gone and the full lights are back. | Lighting update! The dimness is gone and the full lights are back. |
| Lights fully back on so #LabourLeadership candidates are no longer having their identities protected at hustings. pic.twitter.com/0yMwzioqR9 | Lights fully back on so #LabourLeadership candidates are no longer having their identities protected at hustings. pic.twitter.com/0yMwzioqR9 |
| 8.12pm BST | 8.12pm BST |
| 20:12 | 20:12 |
| How will each candidate make the world tomorrow better than yesterday? | How will each candidate make the world tomorrow better than yesterday? |
| A question from a young person... | A question from a young person... |
| Smith says the first thing to tackle is the Tories’ idea of a living wage. He says he would introduce a “proper” living wage of £8.25 an hour, rising to more than £10 over a five year period, and make sure that it applied to under 25s as well. | Smith says the first thing to tackle is the Tories’ idea of a living wage. He says he would introduce a “proper” living wage of £8.25 an hour, rising to more than £10 over a five year period, and make sure that it applied to under 25s as well. |
| Corbyn says it is not true that the world is a worse place than decades ago, but that redistribution of wealth is the problem. | Corbyn says it is not true that the world is a worse place than decades ago, but that redistribution of wealth is the problem. |
| The world is an infinitely richer place. Technology has moved us on immeasurably, what hasn’t moved on is the policy of redistribution. | The world is an infinitely richer place. Technology has moved us on immeasurably, what hasn’t moved on is the policy of redistribution. |
| I want to see an economic strategy that redistributes wealth... it’s a question of making sure the next generation is better off, not worse off. | I want to see an economic strategy that redistributes wealth... it’s a question of making sure the next generation is better off, not worse off. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 8.13pm BST | at 8.13pm BST |
| 8.08pm BST | 8.08pm BST |
| 20:08 | 20:08 |
| Corbyn is being asked about free schools and academies. He says he would not close them, but bring them back into local authority control. | Corbyn is being asked about free schools and academies. He says he would not close them, but bring them back into local authority control. |
| Smith says too that no schools should be closed down but said the government had sought to “subvert” Labour’s academy programme, because the Conservatives “don’t believe in comprehensives.” | Smith says too that no schools should be closed down but said the government had sought to “subvert” Labour’s academy programme, because the Conservatives “don’t believe in comprehensives.” |