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| Labour's future, dodgy bosses and the fourth plinth – live look at the week as it happened | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 4.20pm BST | 4.20pm BST |
| 16:20 | 16:20 |
| See you next week! | See you next week! |
| Thanks for taking part today, it’s been really interesting to follow the discussion, which we hope you can continue for a while yet! | Thanks for taking part today, it’s been really interesting to follow the discussion, which we hope you can continue for a while yet! |
| We’ll be back next Friday with another of these – in the meantime we’d love to hear from you either in the comments or via email about what you’d like us to talk about above the line. You can contact matthew.holmes@theguardian.com or sarah.marsh@theguardian.com – or indeed look out for us below. We’ll also be happy to try and pass on other points or questions to colleagues at the Guardian, so if there’s a burning issue you want to talk about let us know. | We’ll be back next Friday with another of these – in the meantime we’d love to hear from you either in the comments or via email about what you’d like us to talk about above the line. You can contact matthew.holmes@theguardian.com or sarah.marsh@theguardian.com – or indeed look out for us below. We’ll also be happy to try and pass on other points or questions to colleagues at the Guardian, so if there’s a burning issue you want to talk about let us know. |
| Have a great weekend. | Have a great weekend. |
| 4.14pm BST | 4.14pm BST |
| 16:14 | 16:14 |
| More of your GuardianWitness wild camping images | More of your GuardianWitness wild camping images |
| Matthew Holmes | Matthew Holmes |
| Some of these pictures shared in response to a gallery we published earlier are really getting us in the mood for leaving the office, and indeed the city for the weekend. | Some of these pictures shared in response to a gallery we published earlier are really getting us in the mood for leaving the office, and indeed the city for the weekend. |
| Wild camping on Hunstanton Beach in Norfolk | Wild camping on Hunstanton Beach in Norfolk |
| I love camping and I love the beach so I decided to combine the two one night in May this year. It was lovely falling asleep to the sound of the waves and unzipping the canvas to see the sea just a few metres away! | I love camping and I love the beach so I decided to combine the two one night in May this year. It was lovely falling asleep to the sound of the waves and unzipping the canvas to see the sea just a few metres away! |
| Wild camping isn't always easy to do in England but if you find somewhere quiet, with little footfall you can do it. Just make sure you leave no trace, arrive late and leave early! It's a truly magical adventure. | Wild camping isn't always easy to do in England but if you find somewhere quiet, with little footfall you can do it. Just make sure you leave no trace, arrive late and leave early! It's a truly magical adventure. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By Hannahkay | By Hannahkay |
| 30 September 2016, 10:07 | 30 September 2016, 10:07 |
| Cliff top wild camp | Cliff top wild camp |
| Following a beautiful day walking the South West coastal path, spent a great evening under starry skies wild camping on the cliff top, This was the view I was greeted with in the morning, which was a nice accompaniment to a bacon sandwich. | Following a beautiful day walking the South West coastal path, spent a great evening under starry skies wild camping on the cliff top, This was the view I was greeted with in the morning, which was a nice accompaniment to a bacon sandwich. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By JFC1978 | By JFC1978 |
| 30 September 2016, 15:49 | 30 September 2016, 15:49 |
| 4.03pm BST | 4.03pm BST |
| 16:03 | 16:03 |
| Would you let a robot look after your child? | Would you let a robot look after your child? |
| Julia Carrie Wong | Julia Carrie Wong |
| This week I attended a robotics exhibition in San Jose, California, where Chinese company Avatar Mind was showing off a “social robot” for children called the iPal. Already in production in China, the company hopes to start selling the humanoid robots in the United States in 2017. | This week I attended a robotics exhibition in San Jose, California, where Chinese company Avatar Mind was showing off a “social robot” for children called the iPal. Already in production in China, the company hopes to start selling the humanoid robots in the United States in 2017. |
| The robot can talk, help with homework, dance, play games, and run a video stream so parents can keep an eye on their children while still at work. The founder told me children ages three to eight would be alright for “a couple of hours” without adult supervision with the iPal. | The robot can talk, help with homework, dance, play games, and run a video stream so parents can keep an eye on their children while still at work. The founder told me children ages three to eight would be alright for “a couple of hours” without adult supervision with the iPal. |
| The idea of a robotic nanny has been around since the Jetsons, but ethicists have raised serious concerns about the potential dangers of leaving children with machines that approximate, but do not match, human interaction. | The idea of a robotic nanny has been around since the Jetsons, but ethicists have raised serious concerns about the potential dangers of leaving children with machines that approximate, but do not match, human interaction. |
| What do you think? Is leaving a child with a robot better than leaving her in front of the TV? Can a robot parent raise a human child? | What do you think? Is leaving a child with a robot better than leaving her in front of the TV? Can a robot parent raise a human child? |
| 3.52pm BST | 3.52pm BST |
| 15:52 | 15:52 |
| Some historical context to the latest discussion below the line on Labour, which you’ve continued to discuss after earlier articles we highlighted. | Some historical context to the latest discussion below the line on Labour, which you’ve continued to discuss after earlier articles we highlighted. |
| After every period Labour has had in office there has been a backlash from the left. It happened in the 1950s after the Attlee government. The left were unhappy with NHS charges, the policy on nuclear weapons and towards the Soviet Union. This led to infighting which kept the party out of power for 13 years. | After every period Labour has had in office there has been a backlash from the left. It happened in the 1950s after the Attlee government. The left were unhappy with NHS charges, the policy on nuclear weapons and towards the Soviet Union. This led to infighting which kept the party out of power for 13 years. |
| After the Wilson/Callaghan governments of the 60s and 70s we got the infamous i infighting of the 80s. Corbyn's mentor helped build a myth that the party had betrayed socialism and was just the same as the Tories. This helped keep Labour out of power for 18 years. | After the Wilson/Callaghan governments of the 60s and 70s we got the infamous i infighting of the 80s. Corbyn's mentor helped build a myth that the party had betrayed socialism and was just the same as the Tories. This helped keep Labour out of power for 18 years. |
| So now after the Blair/Brown governments we're getting the same thing. The left are trashing the parties record and focusing on the past. They cannot see what led Labour to success in the past. The only difference each time this happens is that the divisions get deeper and the time in the wilderness seems to get longer. 13 years, 18 years and how long now? 25-30? | So now after the Blair/Brown governments we're getting the same thing. The left are trashing the parties record and focusing on the past. They cannot see what led Labour to success in the past. The only difference each time this happens is that the divisions get deeper and the time in the wilderness seems to get longer. 13 years, 18 years and how long now? 25-30? |
| Can Britain afford to wait that long or like the Liberal Party a century ago, has Labour's time just come to an end? | Can Britain afford to wait that long or like the Liberal Party a century ago, has Labour's time just come to an end? |
| 3.38pm BST | 3.38pm BST |
| 15:38 | 15:38 |
| Discussion of the week on diversity in advertising | Discussion of the week on diversity in advertising |
| Guardian readers | Guardian readers |
| Each week we ask our team of moderators to highlight a couple of conversations they thought were particularly interesting or enjoyable. | Each week we ask our team of moderators to highlight a couple of conversations they thought were particularly interesting or enjoyable. |
| The first we’ll choose was in reaction to this piece on diversity in advertising, a response to a new H&M advert which, as the author describes with some scepticism, “features Normal Women™ doing Normal Things™”. You can click the links on the comments to follow the full conversation. | The first we’ll choose was in reaction to this piece on diversity in advertising, a response to a new H&M advert which, as the author describes with some scepticism, “features Normal Women™ doing Normal Things™”. You can click the links on the comments to follow the full conversation. |
| ‘If this signals a change that includes more diversity going forward, then I’m in’ | ‘If this signals a change that includes more diversity going forward, then I’m in’ |
| I thought the ad was gorgeous - sorry. How can you win? You put white thing women in an advert, you're not representative (true). You put a diverse range of women in an advert, you're pandering. True, there was something a bit tokenistic about the campaign, and they could have maybe done it a bit more subtly than having a bunch of "diverse" women in one advert saying "see how diverse we are???" Then again, you have to start somewhere. If this signals a change in H&M's advertising that includes more diversity in all of their media going forward, then I'm in. Let's just see if they carry it forward.Oh and on the unrelated paragraph about portraying mixed race couples - I had no idea it produced such backlash. I am a product of a mixed marriage myself, so I am frankly just bemused at furious reactions over mixed marriages and relationships. They've been a fact of life for thousands of years and have been increasingly common and will only get more common as air travel and multi-culturalism increases. I'm not even offended, I just find it highly amusing that there are still people out there who honestly believe that "mixing" is wrong. Next fact of life to get offended over - the sky is blue. | I thought the ad was gorgeous - sorry. How can you win? You put white thing women in an advert, you're not representative (true). You put a diverse range of women in an advert, you're pandering. True, there was something a bit tokenistic about the campaign, and they could have maybe done it a bit more subtly than having a bunch of "diverse" women in one advert saying "see how diverse we are???" Then again, you have to start somewhere. If this signals a change in H&M's advertising that includes more diversity in all of their media going forward, then I'm in. Let's just see if they carry it forward.Oh and on the unrelated paragraph about portraying mixed race couples - I had no idea it produced such backlash. I am a product of a mixed marriage myself, so I am frankly just bemused at furious reactions over mixed marriages and relationships. They've been a fact of life for thousands of years and have been increasingly common and will only get more common as air travel and multi-culturalism increases. I'm not even offended, I just find it highly amusing that there are still people out there who honestly believe that "mixing" is wrong. Next fact of life to get offended over - the sky is blue. |
| ‘The problem is down to agencies insisting on hiring privately educated individuals with degrees’ | ‘The problem is down to agencies insisting on hiring privately educated individuals with degrees’ |
| I work in advertising. I've worked at several agencies and can tell you from experience that the problem is not down to gender imbalance (though this is definitely the case at the very senior levels). Nor is it necessarily down to a lack of ethnic diversity (though this still has a long way to go). In my opinion, the problem is down to these agencies insisting that they generally hire privately educated individuals with degrees. This means that my colleagues are effectively homogenised in their views and experiences. How then, is it possible for them to create ads which resonate with society at large, when they only hire individuals who have been living in a lovely middle-class bubble their whole lives? A lot of the products we make ads for would never be bought by such people. Rather, it's those in the council estates that flock to buy them en masse. And the disconnect between what they want, and what a lot of my colleagues think they want, is marked. | I work in advertising. I've worked at several agencies and can tell you from experience that the problem is not down to gender imbalance (though this is definitely the case at the very senior levels). Nor is it necessarily down to a lack of ethnic diversity (though this still has a long way to go). In my opinion, the problem is down to these agencies insisting that they generally hire privately educated individuals with degrees. This means that my colleagues are effectively homogenised in their views and experiences. How then, is it possible for them to create ads which resonate with society at large, when they only hire individuals who have been living in a lovely middle-class bubble their whole lives? A lot of the products we make ads for would never be bought by such people. Rather, it's those in the council estates that flock to buy them en masse. And the disconnect between what they want, and what a lot of my colleagues think they want, is marked. |
| ‘This is just the voice in the doorman’s earpiece saying, ‘It’s a flat night, let the people in we wouldn’t last night’.’ | ‘This is just the voice in the doorman’s earpiece saying, ‘It’s a flat night, let the people in we wouldn’t last night’.’ |
| Okay, I've watched it. There were no women on the verge of obesity in there; there was no depressed and solitary-looking woman, there wasn't a woman with alopecia or rosacea. No one with MS, no amputee. I know why, you know why, so what's with the celebration of bullshit from H&M and Dove? This is just the voice in the doorman's earpiece saying, 'It's a flat night, let the people in we wouldn't last night.' | Okay, I've watched it. There were no women on the verge of obesity in there; there was no depressed and solitary-looking woman, there wasn't a woman with alopecia or rosacea. No one with MS, no amputee. I know why, you know why, so what's with the celebration of bullshit from H&M and Dove? This is just the voice in the doorman's earpiece saying, 'It's a flat night, let the people in we wouldn't last night.' |
| 3.08pm BST | 3.08pm BST |
| 15:08 | 15:08 |
| What do you think of David Shrigley's fourth plinth? | What do you think of David Shrigley's fourth plinth? |
| Matthew Holmes | Matthew Holmes |
| On Thursday Sadiq Khan unveiled the latest piece to occupy the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square in London – a seven-metre high bronze thumbs up by Manchester-based artist David Shrigley. | On Thursday Sadiq Khan unveiled the latest piece to occupy the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square in London – a seven-metre high bronze thumbs up by Manchester-based artist David Shrigley. |
| The Guardian’s Jonathan Jones calls it “phallic, ungainly and hysterically strident” – but gives a four star review. | The Guardian’s Jonathan Jones calls it “phallic, ungainly and hysterically strident” – but gives a four star review. |
| We can go one better than an art critic. Reader Aubrey Leahy will be better known to many commenters and GuardianWitness contributors by his username on site: fourthplinth. | We can go one better than an art critic. Reader Aubrey Leahy will be better known to many commenters and GuardianWitness contributors by his username on site: fourthplinth. |
| How could we not ask him for his thoughts? | How could we not ask him for his thoughts? |
| Of his username he says: “Since I was a 14-year-old sea cadet in 1958, and part of a guard of honour celebrating Trafalgar Day, Trafalgar Square has always held a particular sweet spot and place in my heart.” | Of his username he says: “Since I was a 14-year-old sea cadet in 1958, and part of a guard of honour celebrating Trafalgar Day, Trafalgar Square has always held a particular sweet spot and place in my heart.” |
| So what are his first impressions of the new piece occupying the plinth? | So what are his first impressions of the new piece occupying the plinth? |
| Perhaps thumbs up gives a nod to the fast-fading cheerful cockney spirit? It does seem to suit the plinth and convey the upbeat spirit of London. It’s certainly in keeping with the fact that each sculpture has been different. (My all time favorite remains Yinka Shonibare’s Ship in a Bottle). | Perhaps thumbs up gives a nod to the fast-fading cheerful cockney spirit? It does seem to suit the plinth and convey the upbeat spirit of London. It’s certainly in keeping with the fact that each sculpture has been different. (My all time favorite remains Yinka Shonibare’s Ship in a Bottle). |
| I suspect it won’t be long before it gets a hat or a traffic cone added (as Nelson wore for the Jubilee). The main problem for me is am very familiar with another similar sculpture of a thumb which this reminds me of (at Clos Pegase winery in the Napa Valley). It would be awfully unoriginal to give it a thumbs up, so will instead give it a pig Latin Supra Pollice Verso. | I suspect it won’t be long before it gets a hat or a traffic cone added (as Nelson wore for the Jubilee). The main problem for me is am very familiar with another similar sculpture of a thumb which this reminds me of (at Clos Pegase winery in the Napa Valley). It would be awfully unoriginal to give it a thumbs up, so will instead give it a pig Latin Supra Pollice Verso. |
| So there we go – what do you think? | So there we go – what do you think? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 3.25pm BST | at 3.25pm BST |
| 2.41pm BST | 2.41pm BST |
| 14:41 | 14:41 |
| Mental health and young women … what's going on? | Mental health and young women … what's going on? |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Dr Liz England comments on a story out this week showing mental illness has soared among young women. She responds to the question – why are women more affected? | Dr Liz England comments on a story out this week showing mental illness has soared among young women. She responds to the question – why are women more affected? |
| Women have always felt more comfortable coming forward and I don’t think men self-harm as much. Instead, they tend to turn to other things to ease their distress, such as alcohol. That’s why it’s important to have gender specific services. We are seeing more women with post traumatic stress disorder from domestic violence, after childbirth and from sexual violence they experience in relationships. Those sort of conditions need a different approach to ones we have as standard at the moment. | Women have always felt more comfortable coming forward and I don’t think men self-harm as much. Instead, they tend to turn to other things to ease their distress, such as alcohol. That’s why it’s important to have gender specific services. We are seeing more women with post traumatic stress disorder from domestic violence, after childbirth and from sexual violence they experience in relationships. Those sort of conditions need a different approach to ones we have as standard at the moment. |
| Similarly with men a different approach is also needed, and for them we need to make services and treatment accessible. We know that middle-aged men have the highest suicide rate, so what are we doing to get that group into treatment and support earlier. It’s good that we have identified these new statistics as if we know about these problems then we can plan services better and think, why is this happening? | Similarly with men a different approach is also needed, and for them we need to make services and treatment accessible. We know that middle-aged men have the highest suicide rate, so what are we doing to get that group into treatment and support earlier. It’s good that we have identified these new statistics as if we know about these problems then we can plan services better and think, why is this happening? |
| Mental health problems are increasingly (there’s lots of reasons for this). I worry, in particular, about the impact of the media and social media. People are seeing things like self-harm on social media dn it makes it more accessible and we need to be really alert and able to talk to our children. We need to have that conversation around those issues and make sure they are safe. | Mental health problems are increasingly (there’s lots of reasons for this). I worry, in particular, about the impact of the media and social media. People are seeing things like self-harm on social media dn it makes it more accessible and we need to be really alert and able to talk to our children. We need to have that conversation around those issues and make sure they are safe. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.41pm BST | at 2.41pm BST |
| 2.29pm BST | 2.29pm BST |
| 14:29 | 14:29 |
| Pictures of the week | Pictures of the week |
| Joanna Ruck | Joanna Ruck |
| Picture editor Joanna Ruck shares some of her images of the week. | Picture editor Joanna Ruck shares some of her images of the week. |
| First, the images from Aleppo have been particularly hard to look at this week and very graphic and distressing. There’s a gallery of images from Aleppo you can see here: | First, the images from Aleppo have been particularly hard to look at this week and very graphic and distressing. There’s a gallery of images from Aleppo you can see here: |
| As a counterpoint to those images, it’s always nice to look at a panda falling over ... | As a counterpoint to those images, it’s always nice to look at a panda falling over ... |
| But the picture that caused us the most amusement this week was Jeremy Corbyn’s photocall as he arrived to give his speech to the Labour Party conference. We couldn’t decide if he’d accidentally walked onto the set of a hair commercial or looked like a headmaster on A-level results day. | But the picture that caused us the most amusement this week was Jeremy Corbyn’s photocall as he arrived to give his speech to the Labour Party conference. We couldn’t decide if he’d accidentally walked onto the set of a hair commercial or looked like a headmaster on A-level results day. |
| 2.21pm BST | 2.21pm BST |
| 14:21 | 14:21 |
| Oh dear – lots of woe here. At least it’s Friday, people! (sorry weekend workers ...) | Oh dear – lots of woe here. At least it’s Friday, people! (sorry weekend workers ...) |
| What makes a horrible boss? | What makes a horrible boss? |
| Over delegation and micro management. We've just said goodbye to someone who took delegation to the extreme and palmed off everything they did not feel like doing. For them it was all about hand picking the tasks that gave them the right exposure and allowing plenty of time for telling everyone just how busy they were. The unfortunate staff under her were saddled with a lot of the grunt work and tasks above their pay grade, for which they recieved nothing but constant harrassment from the boss to get the work done. She walked away with a fat bonus and no parting recommendation to management that her staff receive similar. | Over delegation and micro management. We've just said goodbye to someone who took delegation to the extreme and palmed off everything they did not feel like doing. For them it was all about hand picking the tasks that gave them the right exposure and allowing plenty of time for telling everyone just how busy they were. The unfortunate staff under her were saddled with a lot of the grunt work and tasks above their pay grade, for which they recieved nothing but constant harrassment from the boss to get the work done. She walked away with a fat bonus and no parting recommendation to management that her staff receive similar. |
| The worst bosses are the ones who demand you get some piece of work done by last week, and then call a 5 hour meeting to discuss how all the work is going. Sigh. | The worst bosses are the ones who demand you get some piece of work done by last week, and then call a 5 hour meeting to discuss how all the work is going. Sigh. |
| * Liars | * Liars |
| * Those more concerned with their careers than their staff | * Those more concerned with their careers than their staff |
| * Those who pass blame down | * Those who pass blame down |
| * Those who steal the achievements of those below them | * Those who steal the achievements of those below them |
| * Micro-managers | * Micro-managers |
| * Those who are too afraid to delegate | * Those who are too afraid to delegate |
| * Those who pass on responsibility but not the authority to deliver | * Those who pass on responsibility but not the authority to deliver |
| That's my list over the years and what I say to all my staff is that they all see these people, these horrible bosses, so why therefore do so many when their time comes, behave in the same manner. | That's my list over the years and what I say to all my staff is that they all see these people, these horrible bosses, so why therefore do so many when their time comes, behave in the same manner. |
| Basically if you wouldn't like it going to yourself then don't do it to others. | Basically if you wouldn't like it going to yourself then don't do it to others. |
| That being said I've met far more bloody horrible staff in my time than managers, but then there are more staff and the managers unfortunately have more ability to cause significant damage. | That being said I've met far more bloody horrible staff in my time than managers, but then there are more staff and the managers unfortunately have more ability to cause significant damage. |
| Also one final point to make is that "managers" and not "leaders" and vice versa. Those are two distinct skill sets and being good at one does not mean you will be good at the other. | Also one final point to make is that "managers" and not "leaders" and vice versa. Those are two distinct skill sets and being good at one does not mean you will be good at the other. |
| 2.06pm BST | 2.06pm BST |
| 14:06 | 14:06 |
| More on bad bosses ... | More on bad bosses ... |
| Bad bosses - sure. | Bad bosses - sure. |
| But I seem to remember that about 1 in 10 of us are bosses - that means that for every nightmare boss there are 10 nightmare employees. | But I seem to remember that about 1 in 10 of us are bosses - that means that for every nightmare boss there are 10 nightmare employees. |
| No wonder bosses get a bit frazzled. | No wonder bosses get a bit frazzled. |
| Go on then tell us about your boss | Go on then tell us about your boss |
| She's still at lunch. She left the office just before 11am. | She's still at lunch. She left the office just before 11am. |
| And from the Guardian’s Martin Belam ... who isn’t at lunch but is hard at work in the comments: | And from the Guardian’s Martin Belam ... who isn’t at lunch but is hard at work in the comments: |
| I'm nervous about how Matthew and Sarah have changed the theme above the line to having dreadful bosses. What are they trying to say? | I'm nervous about how Matthew and Sarah have changed the theme above the line to having dreadful bosses. What are they trying to say? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 2.07pm BST | at 2.07pm BST |