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| Peter Dutton au pair visa inquiry: leak referred to federal police – live | Peter Dutton au pair visa inquiry: leak referred to federal police – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| OK, next up is Gillon McLachlan, the chief executive of the AFL. | |
| He’ll be joined Jude Donnelly, the AFL’s head of government relations. Donnelly is a former Liberal staffer. | |
| You may remember we revealed last week Dutton saved an au pair from deportation, intervening after the AFL’s chief executive officer, Gillon McLachlan, raised the young woman’s case. | |
| Just back to that earlier post about Eve Watts, a senior migration consultant from Inclusive Migration Australia, mentioning a client who had successfully obtained a ministerial intervention. | |
| The individual, she said, had worked in some capacity on the campaign of Liberal Party MP Andrew Hastie. It’s unclear whether that was a formal position or as a volunteer. She was later asked whether that person believed it was his relationship with the Hastie campaign that secured the ministerial intervention, but didn’t give a clear answer. | |
| A lot of the concern from the migration experts appearing at the moment relates to the way ministerial interventions are rejected. All three of the witnesses have described putting in weeks of work compiling cases in favour of intervention, only to receive a one-line rejection letter a few weeks or months later without any explanation. | |
| It paints a picture of the way interventions generally work which seems far removed from the details of the two au pair cases. | |
| Can somebody please identify themselves. | |
| Senator Eric Abetz is getting a bit dizzy from all the disembodied voices appearing via phone hookup. | |
| From inside of the hearing... | |
| The Dutton #aupair inquiry has just heard from 3 experienced migration agents. None of them have ever obtained Ministerial intervention, to obtain a visa, over the phone, within hours, without substantial documentary evidence. It’s not what you know... | |
| Sarah Dale from the Refugee Advice & Casework Service said there were “clear guidelines” for when the minister should intervene. She said she’d seen many cases where the guidelines hadn’t been followed in relation to a refugee family. | |
| She refers to the removal of a Tamil father two months go. “The guidelines were very clear that intervention was warranted and that he should not be removed given he had a child here in Australia with protection needs,” she said. | |
| “It’s alarming for us that guidelines aren’t being followed, but further we don’t get any reasons, or a justification for when and why it was refused.” | |
| Murray Watt is asking about some of the experiences of these migration agents with interventions. | |
| He wants to know whether anyone has heard of an application being accepted within a matter of hours. “No,” is the answer from all three witnesses. | |
| Eve Watts (sorry, similar names) says she’s never made an application for ministerial intervention with less than 20 statutory declarations attached to it. | |
| “When you present cases that absolutely meet the guidelines but they’re knocked back without any explanation or reasoning it doesn’t make sense,” she said. | |
| Murray Watt asks whether any of the witnesses have ever just called someone to ask for an intervention. The witnesses are appearing by phone hook up, and there is a bit of scoffing on the line. | |
| “That would never happen,” Duncan says. | |
| Eve Watts says she doesn’t even know of a phone number she could call. | |
| Eve Watts, a senior migration consultant from Inclusive Migration Australia, is talking about some specific cases of families seeking ministerial intervention. Her example again go to the role that lobbying plays in an intervention. | Eve Watts, a senior migration consultant from Inclusive Migration Australia, is talking about some specific cases of families seeking ministerial intervention. Her example again go to the role that lobbying plays in an intervention. |
| She says that in four years of practicing in this area she’s made six applications for ministerial intervention. Two of them succeeded. In the first successful case, she says, the individual had worked on the political campaign for Liberal MP Andrew Hastie in West Australia. | She says that in four years of practicing in this area she’s made six applications for ministerial intervention. Two of them succeeded. In the first successful case, she says, the individual had worked on the political campaign for Liberal MP Andrew Hastie in West Australia. |
| In the second, the person had used “community connections to lobby” another WA MP, Ben Morton. | In the second, the person had used “community connections to lobby” another WA MP, Ben Morton. |
| Another two failed and the people were deported. She has another two outstanding including one from a Zimbabwean family who have lived in Australia for seven years. Their youngest daughter is five and was born here. The family had to apply for intervention after changes to religious visa laws. Watts says the family are from an area that is “internationally recognised as the most undeveloped area of Zimbabwe”, and have become active in their community in Australia. | Another two failed and the people were deported. She has another two outstanding including one from a Zimbabwean family who have lived in Australia for seven years. Their youngest daughter is five and was born here. The family had to apply for intervention after changes to religious visa laws. Watts says the family are from an area that is “internationally recognised as the most undeveloped area of Zimbabwe”, and have become active in their community in Australia. |
| The family received a rejection from the minister just yesterday. | The family received a rejection from the minister just yesterday. |
| OK, let’s get into the crux of what Helen Duncan is saying. She’s speaking generally, and not specifically about the au pair issue. The case she raises is about a Vietnamese family who had been in Australia on various visas for nine years before being rejected for ministerial intervention. | OK, let’s get into the crux of what Helen Duncan is saying. She’s speaking generally, and not specifically about the au pair issue. The case she raises is about a Vietnamese family who had been in Australia on various visas for nine years before being rejected for ministerial intervention. |
| Duncan refers to three other similar cases she has dealt with that were accepted for ministerial intervention. The difference, she says, is that in the other three cases the families involved were able to find someone within parliament to lobby on their behalf. Duncan says it raises an important point about the role lobbying plays in the process. | Duncan refers to three other similar cases she has dealt with that were accepted for ministerial intervention. The difference, she says, is that in the other three cases the families involved were able to find someone within parliament to lobby on their behalf. Duncan says it raises an important point about the role lobbying plays in the process. |
| In my opinion the [Vietnamese family] met the guidelines for intervention, as did the other three other cases I had assisted with that had been approved. In the other cases clients had make representations and found someone in the government to lobby for them. The other case was not approved because they did not have anyone lobbying for them. | In my opinion the [Vietnamese family] met the guidelines for intervention, as did the other three other cases I had assisted with that had been approved. In the other cases clients had make representations and found someone in the government to lobby for them. The other case was not approved because they did not have anyone lobbying for them. |
| Duncan says that while she isn’t opposes to people being able to lobby local MPs, she found it “disheartening” that those with less access. | Duncan says that while she isn’t opposes to people being able to lobby local MPs, she found it “disheartening” that those with less access. |
| “There’s no way lobbying should be the main determinant and at the moment with little transparency in the system we only have our suspicions.” | “There’s no way lobbying should be the main determinant and at the moment with little transparency in the system we only have our suspicions.” |
| OK, we’re back. Hope you all had a lovely lunch. I spent mine scrambling through an NFL fantasy draft. I took Saquon Barkley with the seventh overall pick, if you’re interested. | OK, we’re back. Hope you all had a lovely lunch. I spent mine scrambling through an NFL fantasy draft. I took Saquon Barkley with the seventh overall pick, if you’re interested. |
| Anyway, back to slightly more important matters. Namely, the Senate committee hearing into “allegations concerning the inappropriate exercise of ministerial powers, with respect to the visa status of au pairs, and related matters” (or, what’s the go with the au pairs). | Anyway, back to slightly more important matters. Namely, the Senate committee hearing into “allegations concerning the inappropriate exercise of ministerial powers, with respect to the visa status of au pairs, and related matters” (or, what’s the go with the au pairs). |
| We’re about to hear from Helen Duncan, a registered migration agent of nearly two decades. Duncan’s submission to the inquiry compared the minister’s decision in the cases of the two au pairs with his failure to heed the pleas of a Vietnamese family who had lived, worked and studied in Australia for a decade. She’ll be joined by Eve Watts, a migration consultant and Sarah Dale, the principal solicitor from the Australian Refugee and Casework Service. | We’re about to hear from Helen Duncan, a registered migration agent of nearly two decades. Duncan’s submission to the inquiry compared the minister’s decision in the cases of the two au pairs with his failure to heed the pleas of a Vietnamese family who had lived, worked and studied in Australia for a decade. She’ll be joined by Eve Watts, a migration consultant and Sarah Dale, the principal solicitor from the Australian Refugee and Casework Service. |
| In other Peter Dutton-related news, after the flurry of legal advice released in spill week, academic Anne Twomey has weighed the arguments on both sides regarding Dutton’s eligibility to sit in parliament. | In other Peter Dutton-related news, after the flurry of legal advice released in spill week, academic Anne Twomey has weighed the arguments on both sides regarding Dutton’s eligibility to sit in parliament. |
| The issue is whether Dutton breaches section 44(v) of the constitution – which bans “direct or indirect pecuniary interests in an agreement with the commonwealth” – because of his business interests in childcare centres. | The issue is whether Dutton breaches section 44(v) of the constitution – which bans “direct or indirect pecuniary interests in an agreement with the commonwealth” – because of his business interests in childcare centres. |
| The solicitor general, Stephen Donaghue, said the better view is “no”, Labor’s advice from Bret Walker said the better view is “yes”. The short version of Twomey’s advice is: this is a genuine legal issue and only the high court can decide. | The solicitor general, Stephen Donaghue, said the better view is “no”, Labor’s advice from Bret Walker said the better view is “yes”. The short version of Twomey’s advice is: this is a genuine legal issue and only the high court can decide. |
| The long version: | The long version: |
| Twomey notes that although there may be no capacity for public servants to influence Dutton because they are obliged to pay subsidies to all childcare centres, that is only one rationale for section 44(v). Another is “prevention of financial gain which may give rise to a conflict of duty and interest”. | Twomey notes that although there may be no capacity for public servants to influence Dutton because they are obliged to pay subsidies to all childcare centres, that is only one rationale for section 44(v). Another is “prevention of financial gain which may give rise to a conflict of duty and interest”. |
| Twomey argues just because subsidies are paid under a statutory scheme, that does not necessarily mean there is no “agreement with the commonwealth”. She also suggests there may be an agreement because childcare centres get extra payments if they agree to take part in the Inclusion Support Programme. | Twomey argues just because subsidies are paid under a statutory scheme, that does not necessarily mean there is no “agreement with the commonwealth”. She also suggests there may be an agreement because childcare centres get extra payments if they agree to take part in the Inclusion Support Programme. |
| Donaghue agreed that was likely to be an agreement with the commonwealth, but Dutton may not have an interest in it because the funding was given for specific purposes (rather than provide a surplus that could go to Dutton’s family trust).Twomey concludes: | Donaghue agreed that was likely to be an agreement with the commonwealth, but Dutton may not have an interest in it because the funding was given for specific purposes (rather than provide a surplus that could go to Dutton’s family trust).Twomey concludes: |
| There is a genuine legal issue about Mr Dutton’s possible disqualification from parliament. It is an issue about which reasonable minds may differ. When it comes to the childcare subsidies, it may well be the case that the statutory regime precludes the arrangement from being regarded as the type of agreement to which s44 is directed. | There is a genuine legal issue about Mr Dutton’s possible disqualification from parliament. It is an issue about which reasonable minds may differ. When it comes to the childcare subsidies, it may well be the case that the statutory regime precludes the arrangement from being regarded as the type of agreement to which s44 is directed. |
| But this is by no means certain. It may depend upon how strictly the court of disputed returns, if the matter was referred to it, was prepared to enforce the provision and whether its focus was on the protection of parliamentarians or the system of representative government ... These issues will not be resolved and the uncertainty will remain unless they are dealt with by the court of disputed returns. | But this is by no means certain. It may depend upon how strictly the court of disputed returns, if the matter was referred to it, was prepared to enforce the provision and whether its focus was on the protection of parliamentarians or the system of representative government ... These issues will not be resolved and the uncertainty will remain unless they are dealt with by the court of disputed returns. |
| Right, we’re done with home affairs. Besides the news that the leaked interdepartmental emails have been referred to the AFP, it’s hard to argue we’ve learned much more this morning. | Right, we’re done with home affairs. Besides the news that the leaked interdepartmental emails have been referred to the AFP, it’s hard to argue we’ve learned much more this morning. |
| We’ll be back after lunch, when the AFL chief executive, Gillon McLachlan, is expected to give evidence. | We’ll be back after lunch, when the AFL chief executive, Gillon McLachlan, is expected to give evidence. |
| Louise Pratt notes Home Affairs didn't bring a number of witnesses who could've answered questions. Pezzullo counters they could've come and refused to answer for other reasons. Excellent. #aupair #auspol https://t.co/U6cXFMfBCn | Louise Pratt notes Home Affairs didn't bring a number of witnesses who could've answered questions. Pezzullo counters they could've come and refused to answer for other reasons. Excellent. #aupair #auspol https://t.co/U6cXFMfBCn |
| Here’s the full quote from Eric Abetz just now. Someone should make this into a T-shirt. | Here’s the full quote from Eric Abetz just now. Someone should make this into a T-shirt. |
| There has been some bizarre criticisms about the quickness that one of these cases was determined by the minister. I would have thought we should all be celebrating that the department and the minister can make quick decisions rather than keeping someone in detention unnecessarily. | There has been some bizarre criticisms about the quickness that one of these cases was determined by the minister. I would have thought we should all be celebrating that the department and the minister can make quick decisions rather than keeping someone in detention unnecessarily. |