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Arron Banks's firm and Leave. EU fined £135,000 over data misuse - live Arron Banks's firm and Leave. EU fined £135,000 over data misuse - live
(35 minutes later)
Rebecca Pow opens the questioning of the ASA’s Guy Parker asking whether it’s time for real regulation to take over from the advertising industry’s self-regulation.
“We regulate advertising in all media, including online,” Parker says, “and not just paid-for advertising.”
“The standards we apply are almost, without exception, the same for broadcast and non-broadcast advertising. Around 75% of the work we do is around encouraging adverts to not be misleading. The rules we have in our code are basically the same as the rules in statute that require that ads aren’t misleading.
“The standards between the two are very similar.”
Somehow Damian Collins has managed to issue a response to the first session with the ICO while still chairing two further sessions. The magic of having staff.
He says:
I welcome today’s report from the Information Commissioner’s Office as a sign of the determination of the regulatory authorities to root out breaches of the law that threaten to undermine our democratic political system. It puts on notice any organisation that considers using people’s data indiscriminately in a battle to win votes. They will be subject to intense scrutiny.
On Facebook, I welcome the Information Commissioner’s comments that the platform needs to change and take much greater responsibility, and her call for Facebook to be subject to stricter regulation and oversight. It is noted that she thinks it would be ‘very useful’ for Mark Zuckerberg to appear in person to answer questions from my committee.
Looking to the future, we hear loudly the opinion of the Information Commissioner that the time for self-regulation is over and a time of accountability is here where parliament sets the objectives and outcomes for social media companies to follow, rather than the regulator taking on individual complaints.”
And that’s it for the Electoral Commission. One more round of questions for the Advertising Standards Authority, and then we’re done.
Collins: “Are we going to have a debate about electoral communications, where the restrictions for TV and radio don’t work in a world where people are getting information from multiple channels?”
Bassett says that the approach should be not to look at each platform in isolation, instead bringing in regulation that works across different media. “I think that that’s going to be really important alongside some of the other regulations we’ve made.”
“Things have changed very very quickly. Over just the three years I’ve been at the commission, they’ve changed greatly. What’s really important is that we keep our improvement moving, and that we recognise that this is changing the nature of politics is changing, and the nature of campaigning is changing.”
Farrelly asks whether there’s a party political component to the lack of action from the government over granting new powers to the Electoral Commission (through an odd metaphor about being asleep at the wheel or driving deliberately off the road). Bassett, of course, dodges the question, but says that she is pleased with some of the responses to its reports from earlier this year.
“It is very difficulty for the government because there is a real lack of legislative space for this. So much electoral law is in primary legislation. We’ve got a really good piece of work done by the Law Commission looking at electoral administration, that’s been sitting there for three years.
“But in the current legislative timetable, that’s unlikely.”
Collins asks how online campaigning should be regulated. “Imprints would be at the top of the list,” says Bassett, forcing campaigners to reveal who has paid for political campaigning online, as they do offline now. The EC recommended that requirement in 2003, but it still hasn’t been passed, she says.
“But it might be that there are different requirements that would achieve the same goal.”
Collins asks whether online campaigning should require campaigners to register, and Bassett warns that it could hinder legitimate debate, since the current rules were set with a specific limit of £10,000 on how large you have to be before registration.
Collins: “If I spent £9,000 in an individual constituency on online campaigning, that would be a large spend though.”
Bassett: “But you have to ask whether the same money would just filter out some other way.”
The SNP’s O’Hara says: “You say that you had reasonable suspicion that Arron Banks was not the true source of the £8m. Can I ask about another source of money, from the constitutional research council, who gave £435,000 to the DUP. Did you investigate why an unincorporated body in Scotland gave the DUP almost half a million pounds that was then used in the referendum campaign to advertise in a newspaper in London?”
Bassett notes that “any donation made in Northern Ireland before 2017, we are restricted in what we can say. We are frustrated by the decision not to take this back to 2014, which would have allowed us to be much more transparent.”
Edwards adds that the DUP was required to file quarterly reports, which they did, and that they verified them. “If we find that donors on the reports were impermissible, then we can then talk about them. We cannot talk about them, because the donors were permissible.”
O’Hara pushes, but Edwards is unable to provide any further information on the specifics.
Farrelly asks about Facebook’s new code of conduct for political campaigning in the UK, which comes into effect tomorrow.Farrelly asks about Facebook’s new code of conduct for political campaigning in the UK, which comes into effect tomorrow.
Bassett notes that the EC doesn’t have any powers outside of an electoral period, but says that they’re “very keen to make sure that we’re asking the right questions. It’s good that Facebook is at least talking to us, and coming forward with some solutions, but it’s reaching the point that we need to set out as a statutory minimum what is expected of them.”Bassett notes that the EC doesn’t have any powers outside of an electoral period, but says that they’re “very keen to make sure that we’re asking the right questions. It’s good that Facebook is at least talking to us, and coming forward with some solutions, but it’s reaching the point that we need to set out as a statutory minimum what is expected of them.”
Farrelly: “You’ve called for greater fining powers, similar to other bodies. What response have you had?”Farrelly: “You’ve called for greater fining powers, similar to other bodies. What response have you had?”
Bassett: “The Government is open to consider it, but at the moment, not. They responded to our 2017 General Election report last week, and in that response I don’t think they’re convinced that that’s the most appropriate route. We’ve not yet had the opportunity to discuss it with him. Bassett: “The government is open to consider it, but at the moment, not. They responded to our 2017 general election report last week, and in that response I don’t think they’re convinced that that’s the most appropriate route. We’ve not yet had the opportunity to discuss it with him.
“Their response seems to suggest we should be referring more people to the police, but that conflates civil and criminal law.“Their response seems to suggest we should be referring more people to the police, but that conflates civil and criminal law.
“We continue to think that the £20,000 maximum fine is very low, in relation to the sums that campaigners are spending.”“We continue to think that the £20,000 maximum fine is very low, in relation to the sums that campaigners are spending.”
Has anyone fined by the EC over wrongdoing in the referendum paid the fines yet? No, says Edwards. The fines are being appealed, which means they don’t have to be paid yet. Has anyone fined by the Electoral Commission over wrongdoing in the referendum paid the fines yet? No, says Edwards. The fines are being appealed, which means they don’t have to be paid yet.
Rebecca Pow asks whether it is important that the NCA finish its investigation before March 29, 2019. Bassett says she doesn’t think she can answer that, but Pow pushes. What if on March 30, the NCA finds massive wrongdoing? “I don’t think that’s something we can comment on, it’s a matter for parliament.” Rebecca Pow asks whether it is important that the NCA finish its investigation before 29 March 2019. Bassett says she doesn’t think she can answer that, but Pow pushes. What if on 30 March, the NCA finds massive wrongdoing? “I don’t think that’s something we can comment on, it’s a matter for parliament.”
“You certainly shouldn’t be assuming that the illegal activity had an effect on the outcome of the referendum,” Bassett says. “There have been some studies, but there isn’t any strong evidence.”“You certainly shouldn’t be assuming that the illegal activity had an effect on the outcome of the referendum,” Bassett says. “There have been some studies, but there isn’t any strong evidence.”
Bassett asked about social media regulation by Clive Effort: “We remain concerned that we need all of the different social media platforms to be engaged and not just some of them and that will probably need further regulation,” she says.
“When does an issue get on the political agenda, when does it become political campaigning. We need to do it in a way that balances freedom of speech with protection of data, that side of it, and make sure it doesn’t create burdens that inhibit people who have the right to say things.”
Giles Watling asks whether the £8m in impermissible loans from the Isle of Man came from Russia. Bassett says that the Electoral Commission can’t answer that question.
Collins asks about Banks’ claims, on TV over the weekend, that the EC hadn’t asked for records of Rock Holdings. “Unfortunately, that’s outside the jurisdiction of the UK, and our powers don’t allow us to request them,” Edwards says.
Bassett also emphasises, in contrast to some of Banks’ other claims on TV, that the Electoral Commission has already fined Leave.EU for offences around reporting staffing cost. “What I do know is that the staffing costs that Leave.EU reported were reported incorrectly,” Edwards adds.
Collins notes “he does seem to specialise in constructive – well, unconstructive – ambiguity.”
Bassett reminds the committee that “we are limited in what we can say to you because we don’t want to prejudice any future investigations,” but hands over to Edwards to discuss the information the EC found to suggest criminality on the part of Leave.EU, resulting in a National Crime Agency investigation.
“What we did was ask Mr Banks for quite a lot of information… we looked at other sources of information and banking records. Having analysed that, we concluded that we suspect that Mr Banks was not the true source of either the £6m loans to Leave Eu or £2m to better for the country. We think that one of the sources was Rock Holdings, which is not a permitted actor because it is based in the Isle of Man.
“Because of all this, we suspect that number of criminal offences may have been committed.
“Last week, we handed all our evidence to the NCA, and last week, we published a report explaining what we’d done.”
Collins opens by asking how the Electoral Commission and the ICO work together. “We’ve been sharing our views around some of these areas. I think there’s a commonality of views around the need for regulation,” says Bassett.
Edwards adds that most of the work is about trying not to “tread on each others’ toes”.
With that, Denham and Dipple-Johnstone are done.
Next up, Claire Bassett, Bob Posner, and Louise Edwards of the Electoral Commission.
“If you’re targeting people on the basis of inferred data, that is personal data”, says Denham.
Collins notes that Facebook doesn’t treat it as such. Denham focuses on one specific type of inferred data, “lookalike audiences”, and says: “The use of lookalike audiences should be made transparent to individuals. They need to know that a political party is making use of lookalike audiences.”
Asked whether that is legal under GDPR, she says “we need to look at it in detail. I’m suggesting that the public is uncomfortable with lookalike audiences, and we need to be transparent.”
Pow asks what the investigation has highlighted to Denham.
She says it’s revealed “the disrespect for the personal data of voters and prospective voters. The model that is familiar to people in the commercial sector, behavioural targeting, has been transferred into the political arena. That’s why I called for an ethical pause. I don’t think we want to use the same model that sells us holidays and shoes and cars to engage with voters. I think people expect more than that.
Pow: “Lots of people are having personal data harvested about themselves that they’re probably quite unaware of.” She specifically asks about “inferred” data (when, for instance, Facebook surveils a users’ browsing and determines that they have an interest in, say, “homosexuality”), and Denham suggests that the approach to that data may be “wrong in the law”. She argues that such inferred data should be considered personal, and protected as such.
O’Hara asks who should regulate about harm online, if internet companies can’t self-regulate. Denham says: “When it comes to internet harms regulation, there needs to be a code that’s backed with statute, extraterritorial reach, sanction – the powers the ICO has, those are the powers that a regulator needs to look at content and conduct online.
But: “I don’t think content and conduct online fits neatly in to any existing regulator.”
Conservative Rebecca Pow asks whether the ICO should just embed someone inside Facebook, which Denham says might be “uncomfortable for both sides”.
“I think inspection powers can give you a way in.”