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Westpac chief executive blames bank's 'culture' for ignoring Asic – live Westpac chief executive blames bank's 'culture' for ignoring Asic – live
(35 minutes later)
And that’s going to do us for today. Thanks for joining me, and thanks to Gareth Hutchens for his insights throughout the day. He’ll have a wrap of all the day’s excitement up shortly.
We’ll be back at 9.45am AEDT tomorrow, but as always here’s a quick rundown of what we learned today:
We heard Westpac chief executive Brian Hartzer pushed on what senior counsel assisting the commission Michael Hodge QC called a failure to consider its responsible lending obligations over a number of non-compliance issues.
Hartzer said no one had been punished for an issue where Westpac ignored Asic’s views about responsible lending requirements for credit limit increases for two years because “there wasn’t a specific error by an individual”.
Things got testy between Hodge and Hartzer when the latter gave a “flippant” answer to a question about Westpac’s obligations over car dealer loans. Asked about dealer motivation for approving a sub-par loan Hartzer replied: “I couldn’t say. I’m not a car dealer.”
Earlier we heard that the former CBA chair David Turner was asked to give back 40% of his pay from the final year on the board after a string of scandals and a damning Apra report.
He said no, because he didn’t recognise the Apra report the CBA board that he knew about.
Since the 2011 financial year, the CBA has never reduced an executive’s short-term remuneration as a result of a risk-related issue that had not yet been made public.
The head of CBA’s wealth division had their executive bonus reduced by only 5% as a result of the Comminsure scandal.
In the same year, the former CEO Ian Narev received 108% of his short-term target bonus, or $2.862m.
At the beginning of the day, Livingstone told the commission she had put her “reputation on the line” by taking the CBA job.
We hear that Westpac and other banks are talking to Asic about a common industry solution to the fee for no service issues.
Hartzer:
It’s about a – as I understand it, because I think it’s still being worked through, is that there would be a common methodology for contacting customers, what the basis of evidence would be, how much information you need to gather, what to do when you couldn’t contact the customer or when you couldn’t contact the adviser, what the approach would be.
OK it looks like we’re going to close out on fees for no service.
Asic first contacted Westpac about the issue early in 2016. At the time, the bank believed the issue was likely limited to a small number “of problem advisers”.
Hodge asks, “is it the case that Westpac now accepts that belief was wrong?:
Yes, Hartzer replies.
Hodge: “And since the concerns were first raised in 2016, the scale of that fees-for-no-service problem it has become apparent has expanded significantly?
Hartzer: Yes.
Hodge: And Westpac didn’t, though, undertake a more expansive review after learning of the concerns in 2016?
Hartzer: Well, we gradually - we did. But it’s a problem that grew in our awareness over time and so the response scaled up over time.
It expects to pay out $106m in remediation to customers over fees for no service.
An economics course will eventually teach its students about the difference between a hypothetical “perfectly competitive” market with multiple players and price competition, and an “oligopolistic market” with a few large players and little price competition.An economics course will eventually teach its students about the difference between a hypothetical “perfectly competitive” market with multiple players and price competition, and an “oligopolistic market” with a few large players and little price competition.
Australia’s banking system is an oligopoly, according to the Productivity Commission.Australia’s banking system is an oligopoly, according to the Productivity Commission.
One of the classic strategic problems faced by firms in an oligopoly is the “first mover problem”. This refers to the logic they’ll employ to defend their behaviour.One of the classic strategic problems faced by firms in an oligopoly is the “first mover problem”. This refers to the logic they’ll employ to defend their behaviour.
For example, if oligopolistic firms are all ripping off customers with a particular product, none of them will want to be the first to stop doing so because they’ll lose market share and profits to their less scrupulous competitors.For example, if oligopolistic firms are all ripping off customers with a particular product, none of them will want to be the first to stop doing so because they’ll lose market share and profits to their less scrupulous competitors.
We heard CBA’s chief executive, Matt Comyn, talk about the first mover problem yesterday.We heard CBA’s chief executive, Matt Comyn, talk about the first mover problem yesterday.
And we’ve heard about it again today, this time from Brian Hartzer.And we’ve heard about it again today, this time from Brian Hartzer.
Check this exchange between Hartzer and Hodge:Check this exchange between Hartzer and Hodge:
Hodge: “The reason that Westpac didn’t want to simply move itself to give up flex commissions was because it didn’t want to be the first mover in the industry?”Hodge: “The reason that Westpac didn’t want to simply move itself to give up flex commissions was because it didn’t want to be the first mover in the industry?”
Hartzer: “We didn’t think that making – being the first mover would actually achieve the elimination of flex commissions, because we didn’t think the others would change, if they weren’t required to.Hartzer: “We didn’t think that making – being the first mover would actually achieve the elimination of flex commissions, because we didn’t think the others would change, if they weren’t required to.
Hodge: “But it would mean that you no longer would be paying flex commissions?Hodge: “But it would mean that you no longer would be paying flex commissions?
Hartzer: “Yes – and we felt that that would mean we were no longer effectively in the business.”Hartzer: “Yes – and we felt that that would mean we were no longer effectively in the business.”
Hodge: “And it would mean that you would no longer be incentivising dealers to have a conflict of interest between themselves and the customer?”Hodge: “And it would mean that you would no longer be incentivising dealers to have a conflict of interest between themselves and the customer?”
Hartzer: “Yes.”Hartzer: “Yes.”
Hodge then asks Hartzer whether he still thinks it’s possible for a bank to operate a large-scale financial advice business “in a way that delivers compliant high quality advice?”Hodge then asks Hartzer whether he still thinks it’s possible for a bank to operate a large-scale financial advice business “in a way that delivers compliant high quality advice?”
He says yes, but “the economics of doing that are getting very difficult”.He says yes, but “the economics of doing that are getting very difficult”.
“Advice is inherently a challenging issue to monitor because you’re talking about a subjective conversation between two people at some point, investing inevitably has a level of subjectivity around it which can mean that with the best will in the world results don’t necessarily come out the way you expect them to,” he says.“Advice is inherently a challenging issue to monitor because you’re talking about a subjective conversation between two people at some point, investing inevitably has a level of subjectivity around it which can mean that with the best will in the world results don’t necessarily come out the way you expect them to,” he says.
“The standards of documentation and proof that we’re now as a general industry expected to meet are very, very high, and so the cost of training, hind-sighting, storing documents, auditing and the like is very, very high relative to the revenue associated with providing that advice.”“The standards of documentation and proof that we’re now as a general industry expected to meet are very, very high, and so the cost of training, hind-sighting, storing documents, auditing and the like is very, very high relative to the revenue associated with providing that advice.”
Hartzer admits he’s “disappointed” in the leadership of BT Financial.Hartzer admits he’s “disappointed” in the leadership of BT Financial.
Poor and inappropriate advice from financial advisors has been at the heart of many of the wealth advisory issues and Hartzer agrees that “in some respects” many of those problems were foreseeable.Poor and inappropriate advice from financial advisors has been at the heart of many of the wealth advisory issues and Hartzer agrees that “in some respects” many of those problems were foreseeable.
Hodge asks, “do you have a problem, as the CEO, with the leadership of the senior leaders within BT over a number of years, given that all of these problems persisted within BT?Hodge asks, “do you have a problem, as the CEO, with the leadership of the senior leaders within BT over a number of years, given that all of these problems persisted within BT?
“I’m certainly disappointed,” he says. He says there has been “significant” remuneration consequences for the leaders at the wealth advisory company.“I’m certainly disappointed,” he says. He says there has been “significant” remuneration consequences for the leaders at the wealth advisory company.
OK we’ve moved onto Westpac’s wealth advisory firm, BT Financal. The commission has heard issues around non-compliant advice and fees for no service across the major financial institutions.OK we’ve moved onto Westpac’s wealth advisory firm, BT Financal. The commission has heard issues around non-compliant advice and fees for no service across the major financial institutions.
Westpac has set aside $47m in funds for customers who received faulty advice as of September this year.Westpac has set aside $47m in funds for customers who received faulty advice as of September this year.
We’re hearing that Westpac has made a number of changes to improve their processes, but the risk profile is still currently outside of the bank’s “risk appetite”.We’re hearing that Westpac has made a number of changes to improve their processes, but the risk profile is still currently outside of the bank’s “risk appetite”.
Yikes. Hodge gets cranky with Hartzer when he gives a “flippant” answer.Yikes. Hodge gets cranky with Hartzer when he gives a “flippant” answer.
He asks, if it’s not a cultural issue at Westpac, what are the possible explanations?He asks, if it’s not a cultural issue at Westpac, what are the possible explanations?
“The pursuit of a commission on the car is one. Another is [it] was a very sad story of a woman who was really desperate to get a car, and he may have been just really trying to get her a car. So that could have been part of it.”“The pursuit of a commission on the car is one. Another is [it] was a very sad story of a woman who was really desperate to get a car, and he may have been just really trying to get her a car. So that could have been part of it.”
Hodge asks which is more likely: a dealer doing something in order to make a profit and get the commission, or engaging in fraud out of the goodness of their heart?Hodge asks which is more likely: a dealer doing something in order to make a profit and get the commission, or engaging in fraud out of the goodness of their heart?
Hartzer responds: “I couldn’t say. I’m not a car dealer.”Hartzer responds: “I couldn’t say. I’m not a car dealer.”
Hodge doesn’t like that answer:Hodge doesn’t like that answer:
Does it seem to you that when Westpac is coming to design its systems and be involved with car dealers, which are its principal source of making auto finance, that it needs to actually think about things from the perspective of the car dealer?Does it seem to you that when Westpac is coming to design its systems and be involved with car dealers, which are its principal source of making auto finance, that it needs to actually think about things from the perspective of the car dealer?
Yes, Hartzer says.Yes, Hartzer says.
So can I suggest the rather flippant answer which is you’re not a car dealer, rather ignores the position that you’re in, which is that you are dependent upon car dealers in order to make these loans for your profit?So can I suggest the rather flippant answer which is you’re not a car dealer, rather ignores the position that you’re in, which is that you are dependent upon car dealers in order to make these loans for your profit?
The back and forth goes on before Hartzer says:The back and forth goes on before Hartzer says:
We – sorry, we absolutely have an obligation to think about the controls that need to be in place for car dealers in this position, given that they are representing us in – in providing that finance, and we’ve made a number of improvements to those controls since that time to address that issue.We – sorry, we absolutely have an obligation to think about the controls that need to be in place for car dealers in this position, given that they are representing us in – in providing that finance, and we’ve made a number of improvements to those controls since that time to address that issue.
This loan in particular was manually approved by a Westpac credit officer, and Hodge wants to drill into whether this and the previous credit card limit increase offers suggest an “inadequate culture for respecting the responsible lending obligations”.This loan in particular was manually approved by a Westpac credit officer, and Hodge wants to drill into whether this and the previous credit card limit increase offers suggest an “inadequate culture for respecting the responsible lending obligations”.
Hartzer says an internal review did not identify any reward or remunerations issues, Westpac employees in these cases are not incentivised to approve loans.Hartzer says an internal review did not identify any reward or remunerations issues, Westpac employees in these cases are not incentivised to approve loans.
Hodge: So does it follow, therefore, that the – whatever the failing is is simply a failing to have adequately applied the responsible lending obligations?Hodge: So does it follow, therefore, that the – whatever the failing is is simply a failing to have adequately applied the responsible lending obligations?
Hartzer: Yes.Hartzer: Yes.
Hodge: And does that suggest, then, the possibility that the problem, at least at the time, was an inadequate culture for respecting the responsible lending obligations?Hodge: And does that suggest, then, the possibility that the problem, at least at the time, was an inadequate culture for respecting the responsible lending obligations?
Hartzer: I don’t think that follows.Hartzer: I don’t think that follows.
Hodge: So what, then, is the possible explanation for why there was this failure to follow the responsible lending obligations?Hodge: So what, then, is the possible explanation for why there was this failure to follow the responsible lending obligations?
Hartzer: So for our employees, the credit officer’s clearly made a mistake here.Hartzer: So for our employees, the credit officer’s clearly made a mistake here.
Hodge: From your perspective, it’s just some mistake that was made?Hodge: From your perspective, it’s just some mistake that was made?
Hartzer: That’s what it looks like to me.Hartzer: That’s what it looks like to me.
Hodge: I see. And have you considered whether there might be cultural factors that contributed to the conduct?Hodge: I see. And have you considered whether there might be cultural factors that contributed to the conduct?
Hartzer: We’ve considered it, but it’s not obvious that that’s an issue here.Hartzer: We’ve considered it, but it’s not obvious that that’s an issue here.
Hodge: When you consider the two case studies from round 1, the credit card limit increase offers and the car loan, both of which involve Westpac taking a particular approach to the responsible lending obligations, does that suggest anything to you about the culture within Westpac in relation to responsible lending?Hodge: When you consider the two case studies from round 1, the credit card limit increase offers and the car loan, both of which involve Westpac taking a particular approach to the responsible lending obligations, does that suggest anything to you about the culture within Westpac in relation to responsible lending?
Hartzer: No, I think they’re different issues. Each of them.Hartzer: No, I think they’re different issues. Each of them.
OK, we’re moving on to Westpac and car loans. The commission previously heard about a Bank of Melbourne car loan granted to a woman in 2012. The commission heard Nalini Thiruvangadam earned $350 per fortnight and and $600 from Centrelink benefitsOK, we’re moving on to Westpac and car loans. The commission previously heard about a Bank of Melbourne car loan granted to a woman in 2012. The commission heard Nalini Thiruvangadam earned $350 per fortnight and and $600 from Centrelink benefits
She was signed up to fortnightly car loan payments of $259.She was signed up to fortnightly car loan payments of $259.
Westpac gives out billions in car loans every year but the overwhelming majority of car loans on issue by Westpac ware initiated by dealers who can set higher interest rates on car loans to get larger commission.Westpac gives out billions in car loans every year but the overwhelming majority of car loans on issue by Westpac ware initiated by dealers who can set higher interest rates on car loans to get larger commission.
Westpac – and Hartzer now – have acknowledged that the loan was unsuitable and that it breached its obligations under the National Consumer Credit Protection Act.Westpac – and Hartzer now – have acknowledged that the loan was unsuitable and that it breached its obligations under the National Consumer Credit Protection Act.
So, we’re told that Hartzer, in his statement to the commission, said the primary cause of the failure to heed Asic’s changes to unsolicited credit increase offers was “the way in which Westpac’s broader systems and culture addressed regulatory issues”.So, we’re told that Hartzer, in his statement to the commission, said the primary cause of the failure to heed Asic’s changes to unsolicited credit increase offers was “the way in which Westpac’s broader systems and culture addressed regulatory issues”.
He agrees with Hodge that “the culture” – particularly further down the chain – included a lack of appreciation for the significance of respecting the view of the regulator.He agrees with Hodge that “the culture” – particularly further down the chain – included a lack of appreciation for the significance of respecting the view of the regulator.
He says that’s changed since, but we’re also told that no one from the bank suffered any negative consequences as a result of the credit card increase issue because “there wasn’t a specific error by an individual”.He says that’s changed since, but we’re also told that no one from the bank suffered any negative consequences as a result of the credit card increase issue because “there wasn’t a specific error by an individual”.
Hodge: And then when you’re explaining that this is why it wouldn’t be appropriate to take action against any managers or executives, that rather suggests that you’re saying it wouldn’t be fair to punish specific individuals involved in the decision-making and interaction with the regulator because they were acting within their authority in accordance with the culture of Westpac?Hodge: And then when you’re explaining that this is why it wouldn’t be appropriate to take action against any managers or executives, that rather suggests that you’re saying it wouldn’t be fair to punish specific individuals involved in the decision-making and interaction with the regulator because they were acting within their authority in accordance with the culture of Westpac?
Hartzer: In effect, yes.Hartzer: In effect, yes.
Hodge: And does that seem problematic to you, if you want to change the culture of the bank, don’t you need to apply remuneration consequences to employees who act in a way that you don’t want them to act?Hodge: And does that seem problematic to you, if you want to change the culture of the bank, don’t you need to apply remuneration consequences to employees who act in a way that you don’t want them to act?
Hartzer: Yes. Although I think we also have a – an obligation on ourselves as a company to make expectations very clear upfront, and I think that’s part of the issue here.Hartzer: Yes. Although I think we also have a – an obligation on ourselves as a company to make expectations very clear upfront, and I think that’s part of the issue here.
Hodge: Is your point it wasn’t clear at the time to employees that there was an expectation that they would respect the view of the regulator and, therefore, it’s unfair to apply remuneration consequences to?Hodge: Is your point it wasn’t clear at the time to employees that there was an expectation that they would respect the view of the regulator and, therefore, it’s unfair to apply remuneration consequences to?
Hartzer: I wouldn’t say it in such a sweeping way.Hartzer: I wouldn’t say it in such a sweeping way.
One of the most striking things about the banking royal commission has been the timeframe we’re talking about.One of the most striking things about the banking royal commission has been the timeframe we’re talking about.
Remember how commissioner Kenneth Hayne asked the banks to cough up to every act of misconduct and poor behaviour they’d engaged in over the past 10 years?Remember how commissioner Kenneth Hayne asked the banks to cough up to every act of misconduct and poor behaviour they’d engaged in over the past 10 years?
That took us back to 2010. That took us back to 2008.
Remember the global financial crisis?Remember the global financial crisis?
That broke out in 2007-2008. That was when the arteries of the global financial system seized up and very nearly collapsed. We were all extremely lucky to avoid another global depression.That broke out in 2007-2008. That was when the arteries of the global financial system seized up and very nearly collapsed. We were all extremely lucky to avoid another global depression.
Yet here we are this year, hearing evidence about how – a handful of years after the GFC – the banks were ripping off customers, prioritising profits over people, and dismissing regulatorsYet here we are this year, hearing evidence about how – a handful of years after the GFC – the banks were ripping off customers, prioritising profits over people, and dismissing regulators
If the GFC wasn’t enough to get them to behave properly, to appreciate how lucky we all are, what is?If the GFC wasn’t enough to get them to behave properly, to appreciate how lucky we all are, what is?
Hartzer is telling the commission about improvements at Westpac in engaging with the regulator, including a new agenda item in risk meetings.Hartzer is telling the commission about improvements at Westpac in engaging with the regulator, including a new agenda item in risk meetings.
Hodge wants to know who at Westpac knew about the Asic letter to the ABA. Hartzer can’t say why senior executives within the business weren’t aware of the letter and admits he hasn’t looked into why nobody at a more senior level in the bank stepped in.Hodge wants to know who at Westpac knew about the Asic letter to the ABA. Hartzer can’t say why senior executives within the business weren’t aware of the letter and admits he hasn’t looked into why nobody at a more senior level in the bank stepped in.
Hodge: And if you haven’t looked into that, does that suggest that you haven’t necessarily fully investigated and understood what the problem was within Westpac at the time?Hodge: And if you haven’t looked into that, does that suggest that you haven’t necessarily fully investigated and understood what the problem was within Westpac at the time?
Hartzer: I don’t think so. I think that the steps that we’ve taken to strengthen the attention and the resourcing and the focus on regulatory matters would address that issue in any event.Hartzer: I don’t think so. I think that the steps that we’ve taken to strengthen the attention and the resourcing and the focus on regulatory matters would address that issue in any event.