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Tory leadership: Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt go head-to-head in ITV debate - live news Tory leadership: Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt go head-to-head in ITV debate - live news
(32 minutes later)
Q: What do you admire about each other?
Johnson says he admires Hunt’s ability to change his mind - as he did over Brexit.
Hunt says he admires Johnson’s ability to not answer the question. Johnson cracks a joke, and you forget the question. It’s a good trait in a politician.
Q: Should HS2 be abandoned?
Johnson says it should be reviewed, but he won’t commit to abandoning it.
Hunt says it should be backed to the hilt.
Q: Will you publish a plan for social care this year?
Yes, says Hunt.
Yes, says Johnson.
Q: Will you stop Heathrow’s third runway going ahead?
Johnson says he has the gravest reservations about this.
Hunt says Johnson should be able to answer this.
Q: Would you scrap universal credit?
No, says Hunt. He says it has teething problems, but it is right in principle.
Johnson also says he would keep it.
Q: Do you support extending abortion rights and same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland?
Yes, says Hunt.
Johnson says these are matters for the Northern Ireland assembly.
Q: Why was your first plan tax cuts for the rich?
Johnson says it was part of a package.
Hunt butts in. He says it was a mistake. He says he has spent his life telling people that the Tories are not just a party for the rich.
Johnson asks Hunt if he is in favour of people on modest incomes having to pay higher rates of tax.
Johnson is refusing to let Hunt answer. He claims Hunt won’t reply, but he has not let him reply.
Hunt says Johnson never answers the question.
He says his priority for tax cuts would be people on low incomes. He says he has spent his life saying the Tories are not the party of the rich, but a party for everyone.
Q: I am struggling to manage. Why are you prioritising tax cuts for the rich or for business, instead of for people like me?
Hunt says he has prioritised corporation tax cuts. But that is because he wants to boost the economy. President Trump cut business taxes, and the US economy is now growing twice as fast as the UK’s.
He says he wants to grow the size of the cake.
“Absolutely right,” says Johnson.
He says he would focus on the hardest pressed. He says as mayor of London he expanded the living wage. He wants to help the low paid by taking them out of national insurance. But he also thinks too many people are being dragged into the higher rate of tax.
Q: Can someone trust a remain voter to deliver Brexit?
Yes, says Hunt. He says he voted remain, but he delivered the extra £350m week promised for the NHS.
Q: Why did you get your facts wrong on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?
Johnson says the Iranians are to blame for what happened to her.
They are back.
Q: Tell us about your character, your qualities?
Johnson says he can get surprise results in difficult circumstances, as he did when he was London mayor.
Hunt says he is prepared to deliver tough messages, as he did to President Trump today.
Q: What is your response?
Johnson says it is very important to have a good relationship with the White House.
He says Trump was dragged into a political debate. That is sometimes not the right thing to do.
On Kim Darroch, Johnson says it is vital that advice given to ministers should not be leaked by ministers.
Johnson refuses to criticise President Trump for what he said about Theresa May.
Q: Will Kim Darroch stay in office?
Hunt says who chooses our ambassador is a matter for the UK government. If he is PM, Darroch stays.
Johnson repeats his point about the need for ministers not to leak.
Johnson implies that a minister was to blame for the Kim Darroch leak.
Q: Will you keep him?
Johnson refuses to say.
Hunt says he will keep Darroch until he is due to retire.
Johnson refuses to say that.
But he says he, and he alone, will decide who takes politically important jobs like this one.
Johnson refuses to commit to keeping Kim Darroch as ambassador to Washington.
Section 1 - Snap verdict: There was talk this morning about Hunt needing to summon up a degree of fight not seen before to have any chance tonight, but so far, he is managing that. In strict debating terms, he is getting the better of Johnson time and time again. His challenge to Johnson about being willing to resign if he did not deliver Brexit by 31 October worked (Johnson’s reply sounded evasive), and his line about getting facts wrong being okay for a columnist, but not for a PM, was the zinger of the opening section.
Julia Etchingham asks people to raise their hands if they think the UK will leave the EU by 31 October.
Hunt raises his hands.
“That’s the spirit”, says Johnson. He says he thought Hunt thought it could not be done.
And the first third of the programme is over.
Q: Would you do a deal with the Brexit party?
Johnson says he does not believe in doing deals with any party?
Q: What would your alternative to an election be?
Hunt says he is the best person to get a deal, so the UK avoids this choice.
He says he is a negotiator by backround.
But if we take a hardline approach, the EU will to.
Getting Brexit right is not about “blind optimism”, he says.
Johnson says he resigned over the withdrawal agreement.
Hunt points out that he voted for it too.
Q: Would you be willing to prorogue parliament to get no-deal through?
Hunt says the last time this was tried, we had a civil war. So he will say no.
Johnson says it would be mistake to take anything off the table.
He says Hunt has not set any timetable for coming out.
He accuses Hunt of “escalating the fears” of a no-deal Brexit.
He says the UK must come out, so the government can get back to the issues people want to talk about.
Q: Parliament will not vote for no-deal. So isn’t a general election inevitable?
Hunt says this is why he is not setting 31 October as an absolute deadline. He does not want go back to the electorate until he has delivered Brexit.
Johnson says it is “totally defeatist” not to set 31 October.
He says parliament has just voted against ruling out no-deal.
(It is not clear what he is referring to - that is not how most people would describe tonight’s votes.)
Hunt accuses Johnson of “peddling optimism”. He says it is important to be honest about the challenges ahead. Who said blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Johnson corrects Hunt’s Churchill quote.
Hunt claims, if the UK prepares, it can get through this. But we should not pretend it will be a “walk in the park”, he says.Hunt claims, if the UK prepares, it can get through this. But we should not pretend it will be a “walk in the park”, he says.
Hunt says in their last debate Johnson said Gatt 24 would allow the UK to avoid tariffs. But Geoffrey Cox, the attorney general, says that is wrong. He says getting facts wrong is okay for a newspaper columnist, but not for someone doing this job.Hunt says in their last debate Johnson said Gatt 24 would allow the UK to avoid tariffs. But Geoffrey Cox, the attorney general, says that is wrong. He says getting facts wrong is okay for a newspaper columnist, but not for someone doing this job.
Johnson pushes back, claiming he never said the UK could use this unilaterally, but Hunt says that is not what he said.Johnson pushes back, claiming he never said the UK could use this unilaterally, but Hunt says that is not what he said.
And Hunt says Johnson’s claim the risk of a no-deal Brexit is a million to one is not correct, and irresponsible.And Hunt says Johnson’s claim the risk of a no-deal Brexit is a million to one is not correct, and irresponsible.
Q: My business would suffer under no-deal. What will you do to avoid one?Q: My business would suffer under no-deal. What will you do to avoid one?
Johnson says he does not think there is much risk of no-deal.Johnson says he does not think there is much risk of no-deal.
Hunt says he has run his business. He knows what it is like to face threats like this. He mentions visiting a steel business that would be harmed by tariffs. He has a 10-point plan.Hunt says he has run his business. He knows what it is like to face threats like this. He mentions visiting a steel business that would be harmed by tariffs. He has a 10-point plan.
Q: Do you accept there is a cost to no-deal?Q: Do you accept there is a cost to no-deal?
Johnson says, badly handled, no-deal could be costly.Johnson says, badly handled, no-deal could be costly.
He says it is “vanishingly inexpensive” if you prepare.He says it is “vanishingly inexpensive” if you prepare.
Johnson says a no-deal Brexit would be “vanishingly inexpensive” if the UK prepares.Johnson says a no-deal Brexit would be “vanishingly inexpensive” if the UK prepares.
Q: What is your plan for the backstop?Q: What is your plan for the backstop?
Hunt says his plan is based on the Alternative Arrangements Commission report?Hunt says his plan is based on the Alternative Arrangements Commission report?
Q: How long will it take?Q: How long will it take?
Hunt says it will take some time to set up.Hunt says it will take some time to set up.
Q: Your plan?Q: Your plan?
Johnson says there are a range of options, much as set out in the Alternative Arrangements Commission paper.Johnson says there are a range of options, much as set out in the Alternative Arrangements Commission paper.
Q: The EU has said it has looked the world over for a solution, and not found one.Q: The EU has said it has looked the world over for a solution, and not found one.
Johnson says they did not say that. He says solutions are available.Johnson says they did not say that. He says solutions are available.
Johnson says if the UK is willing to delay, the EU will not take it seriously.Johnson says if the UK is willing to delay, the EU will not take it seriously.
Hunt ask Johnson if he will resign if he fails to take the UK out by 31 October.
Johnson at first dodges the question. Hunt presses him, and Johnson says it is important not to hold out any prospect of not coming out by 31 October. He says making that promise could encourage the EU to delay.
Johnson says promises to resign if Brexit is not delivered by 31 October could give the EU an incentive to delay.
Hunt says this is not leadership.
Q: So how long will you delay?
Hunt starts answering. Johnson challenges him repeatedly: Christmas?
Hunt implies Johnson has been rude to the EU. He says he has a serious strategy.
Julie Etchingham says the audience is made up of people how have voted Tory, or might do so in the future.
Q: I used to vote Tory, but now I back the Brexit party, and I want to see Nigel Farage in Number 10. Can you guarantee we will leave the EU by 31 October?
Hunt says he is as keen as anyone to deliver Brexit by 31 October. But there has been a breach of trust, and MPs should only make promises they can keep.
Johnson says it is absolutely vital to leave by 31 October.
Jeremy Hunt goes next.
“As a tough negotiator, I will deliver Brexit,” he says.
But he will do so much more. He is an entrepreneur, he will reform services as he did with the NHS, and he knows how to get young people to vote Tory, he says. He says he won a marginal seat. And polls show he has most appeal to the public at large, he says.
Boris Johnson goes first.
He says we can carry on as now, or change, and put the country on the path to success.
The way to do that is to deliver Brexit, propose plans for better infrastructure, and beat Jeremy Corbyn.
The ITV debate is starting.
MPs are now voting on Dominic Grieve’s amendment 17.
Following the decision of the Speaker not to call his new clause 14, this is the Grieve amendment being voted on tonight with the most bite.
It would require the progress reports that MPs have just voted to have fortnightly (see 7.41pm) to be debated.
As the Hansard Society’s Brigid Fowler explained, under the amendment MPs would debate an amendable motion - which means they could be used to trigger further Brexit votes.
But I'm struck that the Grieve am with the most bite (am 17), which *has* been selected, replicates (with different deadlines) the process for statutory statements & motions thereon, within statutory deadlines, set out in s13 of the EU(W)A (the 'meaningful vote' provisions). 9/
&, given the motions wld be approval motions, they'd be amendable, so Grieve incorporates the business motion am. he got thru' in Dec '18. So we may have 2 instances of a parliamentarian borrowing a provision from an existing statute & seeking to insert it in another. 10/
MPs have voted down Dominic Grieve’s amendment 16 - by 292 to 289.
MPs are now voting on Dominic Grieve’s amendment 16.
Here is the full text of it.
Clause 3, page 2, line 16, leave out “the report” and insert “any report under this section”
In his explanatory statement Grieve describes this simply as “a consequential amendment”, meaning that now the bill has been amended to require fortnightly reports (see 7.21pm), the singular noun in this clause is no longer appropriate.
Dominic Grieve has won - by a single vote. MPs voted for his amendment (see 7.18pm and 7.21pm) by 294 votes to 293.
Here is Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, commenting ahead of tonight’s ITV debate.
After three years of pathetic hand-holding and kow-towing by Theresa May, it's a huge test of Boris Johnson’s leadership in tonight's debate to see if he will stand up to Donald Trump and tell him we will not let our diplomats be bullied for doing their job and telling the truth.