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Tory leadership: Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt go head-to-head in ITV debate - live news Tory leadership: Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt go head-to-head in ITV debate - live news
(32 minutes later)
In the early stages of the Tory leadership contest the Boris Johnson camp concluded that Michael Gove would pose more of a threat than Jeremy Hunt in the final stage of the contest, and it is widely assumed at Westminster that this assessment resulted in Team Johnson lending Hunt the votes he need to beat Gove by just two in the MPs’ ballot. The calculation was that Gove would be more brutal in debate. After tonight, that’s not looking such a good judgment because Hunt was more assertive than we’ve seen him before, challenging Johnson repeatedly on specifics. Judged on these skirmishes, Hunt won the debate handsomely. He came over as better briefed and more forensic, and there were several moments in the debate where Johnson found bluster and bonhomie a poor substitute for arguments.
That said, given what all the polling is telling us about the Conservative membership, it would have taken a Titanic disaster for Johnson start throwing away large numbers of votes amongst the (possibly few) Tory members who have not already returned the ballot papers that went out by post last week. Johnson sounded glib and cavalier, but it would be impossible to have been involved in Conservative politics and not to have noticed that he’s like that already. Also, Johnson did better in the second half than in the first half - fighting Hunt to a draw on tax, to my ears, and deflating Hunt a bit by making him admit that his “keep Kim Darroch” pledge only lasted until Christmas.
The debate exposed two big faultlines between the two men. Johnson is determined to minimise the risk of a no-deal Brexit, while Hunt isn’t. (See 8.18pm.) And, while Hunt is willing to be at least moderately critical of President Trump, tonight Johnson refused point blank. Mainstream UK opinion, and certainly Guardian opinion, would be with Hunt on both this issues. But most Tory members are Brexiters, and there is a lot of polling evidence to suggest that leave voters believe the risks of a no-deal Brexit have been exaggerated. And, on Trump, Johnson was effectively endorsing his claim that May’s Brexit strategy has been a disaster - an assessment shared by many grassroots Conservatives. Johnson acquitted himself poorly but, ideologically, he is probably in the right place.
And one more point; it is important to remember that debates very rarely have as much impact on elections as the media assume.
So, overall, it was a clear, technical victory for Hunt - but probably a superficial one too.
They are now making closing statements.
Hunt says he wants to make this amazing country. He only makes promises he can keep. Our country deserves no less, he says.
Johnson says the only way to get this country off “the hamster wheel of doom” is by getting Brexit done. This is an amazing country. Now is the time to show we believe in Britain, he says.
And that’s it. The debate is over.
Reaction, analysis and a summary coming up soon.
Q: What do you admire about each other?Q: What do you admire about each other?
Johnson says he admires Hunt’s ability to change his mind - as he did over Brexit.Johnson says he admires Hunt’s ability to change his mind - as he did over Brexit.
Hunt says he admires Johnson’s ability to not answer the question. Johnson cracks a joke, and you forget the question. It’s a good trait in a politician.Hunt says he admires Johnson’s ability to not answer the question. Johnson cracks a joke, and you forget the question. It’s a good trait in a politician.
Q: Should HS2 be abandoned?Q: Should HS2 be abandoned?
Johnson says it should be reviewed, but he won’t commit to abandoning it.Johnson says it should be reviewed, but he won’t commit to abandoning it.
Hunt says it should be backed to the hilt.Hunt says it should be backed to the hilt.
Q: Will you publish a plan for social care this year?Q: Will you publish a plan for social care this year?
Yes, says Hunt.Yes, says Hunt.
Yes, says Johnson.Yes, says Johnson.
Q: Will you stop Heathrow’s third runway going ahead?Q: Will you stop Heathrow’s third runway going ahead?
Johnson says he has the gravest reservations about this.Johnson says he has the gravest reservations about this.
Hunt says Johnson should be able to answer this.Hunt says Johnson should be able to answer this.
Q: Would you scrap universal credit?Q: Would you scrap universal credit?
No, says Hunt. He says it has teething problems, but it is right in principle.No, says Hunt. He says it has teething problems, but it is right in principle.
Johnson also says he would keep it.Johnson also says he would keep it.
Q: Do you support extending abortion rights and same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland?Q: Do you support extending abortion rights and same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland?
Yes, says Hunt.Yes, says Hunt.
Johnson says these are matters for the Northern Ireland assembly.Johnson says these are matters for the Northern Ireland assembly.
Q: Why was your first plan tax cuts for the rich?Q: Why was your first plan tax cuts for the rich?
Johnson says it was part of a package.Johnson says it was part of a package.
Hunt butts in. He says it was a mistake. He says he has spent his life telling people that the Tories are not just a party for the rich.Hunt butts in. He says it was a mistake. He says he has spent his life telling people that the Tories are not just a party for the rich.
Johnson asks Hunt if he is in favour of people on modest incomes having to pay higher rates of tax.Johnson asks Hunt if he is in favour of people on modest incomes having to pay higher rates of tax.
Johnson is refusing to let Hunt answer. He claims Hunt won’t reply, but he has not let him reply.Johnson is refusing to let Hunt answer. He claims Hunt won’t reply, but he has not let him reply.
Hunt says Johnson never answers the question.Hunt says Johnson never answers the question.
He says his priority for tax cuts would be people on low incomes. He says he has spent his life saying the Tories are not the party of the rich, but a party for everyone.He says his priority for tax cuts would be people on low incomes. He says he has spent his life saying the Tories are not the party of the rich, but a party for everyone.
Q: I am struggling to manage. Why are you prioritising tax cuts for the rich or for business, instead of for people like me?Q: I am struggling to manage. Why are you prioritising tax cuts for the rich or for business, instead of for people like me?
Hunt says he has prioritised corporation tax cuts. But that is because he wants to boost the economy. President Trump cut business taxes, and the US economy is now growing twice as fast as the UK’s.Hunt says he has prioritised corporation tax cuts. But that is because he wants to boost the economy. President Trump cut business taxes, and the US economy is now growing twice as fast as the UK’s.
He says he wants to grow the size of the cake.He says he wants to grow the size of the cake.
“Absolutely right,” says Johnson.“Absolutely right,” says Johnson.
He says he would focus on the hardest pressed. He says as mayor of London he expanded the living wage. He wants to help the low paid by taking them out of national insurance. But he also thinks too many people are being dragged into the higher rate of tax.He says he would focus on the hardest pressed. He says as mayor of London he expanded the living wage. He wants to help the low paid by taking them out of national insurance. But he also thinks too many people are being dragged into the higher rate of tax.
Q: Can someone trust a remain voter to deliver Brexit?Q: Can someone trust a remain voter to deliver Brexit?
Yes, says Hunt. He says he voted remain, but he delivered the extra £350m week promised for the NHS.Yes, says Hunt. He says he voted remain, but he delivered the extra £350m week promised for the NHS.
Q: Why did you get your facts wrong on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?Q: Why did you get your facts wrong on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?
Johnson says the Iranians are to blame for what happened to her.Johnson says the Iranians are to blame for what happened to her.
They are back.They are back.
Q: Tell us about your character, your qualities?Q: Tell us about your character, your qualities?
Johnson says he can get surprise results in difficult circumstances, as he did when he was London mayor.Johnson says he can get surprise results in difficult circumstances, as he did when he was London mayor.
Hunt says he is prepared to deliver tough messages, as he did to President Trump today.Hunt says he is prepared to deliver tough messages, as he did to President Trump today.
Q: What is your response?Q: What is your response?
Johnson says it is very important to have a good relationship with the White House.Johnson says it is very important to have a good relationship with the White House.
He says Trump was dragged into a political debate. That is sometimes not the right thing to do.He says Trump was dragged into a political debate. That is sometimes not the right thing to do.
On Kim Darroch, Johnson says it is vital that advice given to ministers should not be leaked by ministers.On Kim Darroch, Johnson says it is vital that advice given to ministers should not be leaked by ministers.
Johnson refuses to criticise President Trump for what he said about Theresa May.Johnson refuses to criticise President Trump for what he said about Theresa May.
Q: Will Kim Darroch stay in office?Q: Will Kim Darroch stay in office?
Hunt says who chooses our ambassador is a matter for the UK government. If he is PM, Darroch stays.Hunt says who chooses our ambassador is a matter for the UK government. If he is PM, Darroch stays.
Johnson repeats his point about the need for ministers not to leak.Johnson repeats his point about the need for ministers not to leak.
Johnson implies that a minister was to blame for the Kim Darroch leak.Johnson implies that a minister was to blame for the Kim Darroch leak.
Q: Will you keep him?Q: Will you keep him?
Johnson refuses to say.Johnson refuses to say.
Hunt says he will keep Darroch until he is due to retire.Hunt says he will keep Darroch until he is due to retire.
Johnson refuses to say that.Johnson refuses to say that.
But he says he, and he alone, will decide who takes politically important jobs like this one.But he says he, and he alone, will decide who takes politically important jobs like this one.
Johnson refuses to commit to keeping Kim Darroch as ambassador to Washington.Johnson refuses to commit to keeping Kim Darroch as ambassador to Washington.
Section 1 - Snap verdict: There was talk this morning about Hunt needing to summon up a degree of fight not seen before to have any chance tonight, but so far, he is managing that. In strict debating terms, he is getting the better of Johnson time and time again. His challenge to Johnson about being willing to resign if he did not deliver Brexit by 31 October worked (Johnson’s reply sounded evasive), and his line about getting facts wrong being okay for a columnist, but not for a PM, was the zinger of the opening section.Section 1 - Snap verdict: There was talk this morning about Hunt needing to summon up a degree of fight not seen before to have any chance tonight, but so far, he is managing that. In strict debating terms, he is getting the better of Johnson time and time again. His challenge to Johnson about being willing to resign if he did not deliver Brexit by 31 October worked (Johnson’s reply sounded evasive), and his line about getting facts wrong being okay for a columnist, but not for a PM, was the zinger of the opening section.
Julia Etchingham asks people to raise their hands if they think the UK will leave the EU by 31 October.Julia Etchingham asks people to raise their hands if they think the UK will leave the EU by 31 October.
Hunt raises his hands.Hunt raises his hands.
“That’s the spirit”, says Johnson. He says he thought Hunt thought it could not be done.“That’s the spirit”, says Johnson. He says he thought Hunt thought it could not be done.
And the first third of the programme is over.And the first third of the programme is over.
Q: Would you do a deal with the Brexit party?Q: Would you do a deal with the Brexit party?
Johnson says he does not believe in doing deals with any party?Johnson says he does not believe in doing deals with any party?
Q: What would your alternative to an election be?Q: What would your alternative to an election be?
Hunt says he is the best person to get a deal, so the UK avoids this choice.Hunt says he is the best person to get a deal, so the UK avoids this choice.
He says he is a negotiator by backround.He says he is a negotiator by backround.
But if we take a hardline approach, the EU will to.But if we take a hardline approach, the EU will to.
Getting Brexit right is not about “blind optimism”, he says.Getting Brexit right is not about “blind optimism”, he says.
Johnson says he resigned over the withdrawal agreement.Johnson says he resigned over the withdrawal agreement.
Hunt points out that he voted for it too.Hunt points out that he voted for it too.
Q: Would you be willing to prorogue parliament to get no-deal through?Q: Would you be willing to prorogue parliament to get no-deal through?
Hunt says the last time this was tried, we had a civil war. So he will say no.Hunt says the last time this was tried, we had a civil war. So he will say no.
Johnson says it would be mistake to take anything off the table.Johnson says it would be mistake to take anything off the table.
He says Hunt has not set any timetable for coming out.He says Hunt has not set any timetable for coming out.
He accuses Hunt of “escalating the fears” of a no-deal Brexit.He accuses Hunt of “escalating the fears” of a no-deal Brexit.
He says the UK must come out, so the government can get back to the issues people want to talk about.He says the UK must come out, so the government can get back to the issues people want to talk about.
Q: Parliament will not vote for no-deal. So isn’t a general election inevitable?Q: Parliament will not vote for no-deal. So isn’t a general election inevitable?
Hunt says this is why he is not setting 31 October as an absolute deadline. He does not want go back to the electorate until he has delivered Brexit.Hunt says this is why he is not setting 31 October as an absolute deadline. He does not want go back to the electorate until he has delivered Brexit.
Johnson says it is “totally defeatist” not to set 31 October.Johnson says it is “totally defeatist” not to set 31 October.
He says parliament has just voted against ruling out no-deal.He says parliament has just voted against ruling out no-deal.
(It is not clear what he is referring to - that is not how most people would describe tonight’s votes.)(It is not clear what he is referring to - that is not how most people would describe tonight’s votes.)
Hunt accuses Johnson of “peddling optimism”. He says it is important to be honest about the challenges ahead. Who said blood, sweat, toil and tears?Hunt accuses Johnson of “peddling optimism”. He says it is important to be honest about the challenges ahead. Who said blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Johnson corrects Hunt’s Churchill quote.Johnson corrects Hunt’s Churchill quote.
Hunt claims, if the UK prepares, it can get through this. But we should not pretend it will be a “walk in the park”, he says.Hunt claims, if the UK prepares, it can get through this. But we should not pretend it will be a “walk in the park”, he says.
Hunt says in their last debate Johnson said Gatt 24 would allow the UK to avoid tariffs. But Geoffrey Cox, the attorney general, says that is wrong. He says getting facts wrong is okay for a newspaper columnist, but not for someone doing this job.Hunt says in their last debate Johnson said Gatt 24 would allow the UK to avoid tariffs. But Geoffrey Cox, the attorney general, says that is wrong. He says getting facts wrong is okay for a newspaper columnist, but not for someone doing this job.
Johnson pushes back, claiming he never said the UK could use this unilaterally, but Hunt says that is not what he said.Johnson pushes back, claiming he never said the UK could use this unilaterally, but Hunt says that is not what he said.
And Hunt says Johnson’s claim the risk of a no-deal Brexit is a million to one is not correct, and irresponsible.And Hunt says Johnson’s claim the risk of a no-deal Brexit is a million to one is not correct, and irresponsible.
Q: My business would suffer under no-deal. What will you do to avoid one?Q: My business would suffer under no-deal. What will you do to avoid one?
Johnson says he does not think there is much risk of no-deal.Johnson says he does not think there is much risk of no-deal.
Hunt says he has run his business. He knows what it is like to face threats like this. He mentions visiting a steel business that would be harmed by tariffs. He has a 10-point plan.Hunt says he has run his business. He knows what it is like to face threats like this. He mentions visiting a steel business that would be harmed by tariffs. He has a 10-point plan.
Q: Do you accept there is a cost to no-deal?Q: Do you accept there is a cost to no-deal?
Johnson says, badly handled, no-deal could be costly.Johnson says, badly handled, no-deal could be costly.
He says it is “vanishingly inexpensive” if you prepare.He says it is “vanishingly inexpensive” if you prepare.
Johnson says a no-deal Brexit would be “vanishingly inexpensive” if the UK prepares.Johnson says a no-deal Brexit would be “vanishingly inexpensive” if the UK prepares.
Q: What is your plan for the backstop?Q: What is your plan for the backstop?
Hunt says his plan is based on the Alternative Arrangements Commission report?Hunt says his plan is based on the Alternative Arrangements Commission report?
Q: How long will it take?Q: How long will it take?
Hunt says it will take some time to set up.Hunt says it will take some time to set up.
Q: Your plan?Q: Your plan?
Johnson says there are a range of options, much as set out in the Alternative Arrangements Commission paper.Johnson says there are a range of options, much as set out in the Alternative Arrangements Commission paper.
Q: The EU has said it has looked the world over for a solution, and not found one.Q: The EU has said it has looked the world over for a solution, and not found one.
Johnson says they did not say that. He says solutions are available.Johnson says they did not say that. He says solutions are available.
Johnson says if the UK is willing to delay, the EU will not take it seriously.Johnson says if the UK is willing to delay, the EU will not take it seriously.