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Johnson facing Commons revolt after 26 Tories back amendment for Huawei to be excluded from 5G - live news Johnson facing Commons revolt after 26 Tories back amendment for Huawei to be excluded from 5G - live news
(32 minutes later)
Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happenRolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happen
Owen Paterson, the Tory former cabinet minister and one of the supporters of the Iain Duncan Smith amendment, is speaking now.
He says last week the government said it eventually wanted no Huawei involvement in 5G.
But today, he says, MPs wanted to hear how it would get there.
He says they needed to hear that there would be a point where there would be no high-risk vendors in the network. But he says the government is just talking about being able to get to a point where nobody “has to use” Huawei.
He says nobody has to use Huawei; they can always use other suppliers.
What is needed is a commitment to a date at which point there will be no high-risk vendors in the system, he says.
From my colleague Dan Sabbagh
Seely says, if MPs want to know what GCHQ thinks about Huawei, they should read what the Huawei oversight board says about the company. He quotes from the board saying it cannot give assurances about the safety of the company.
These are from the Sun’s Tom Newton Dunn on the Tory Huawei rebels.
In the debate Bob Seely, one of the Tory MPs most critical of Huawei, is speaking now.
He says in a Westminster Hall debate last week Matt Warman, the junior culture minister, was clear about how the government wanted to eventually end Huawei’s involvement in 5G. But he says Oliver Dowden, the culture secretary, was less clear about this today.
In the Westminster Hall debate Warman said: “We want to get to a position where we are not reliant at all on high-risk vendors.”
This is from the Telegraph’s Christopher Hope.
Oliver Dowden has now finished his speech.
Earlier it sounded as if Sir Iain Duncan Smith was preparing to bank the concessions offered by the government and to pull his amendment - there is a very strong overlap between his list of conditions (see 2.29pm) and the Dowden offer (see 1.34pm and 2.48pm) - but at the last minute it started to look as though Dowden might have fluffed the negotiation. He was initially a bit equivocal about the government being committed to ending Huawei’s involvement in 5G, not just reducing it, and, even when he did clarify the government’s desire to see Huawei out for good, he could not set a timetable for this.
Duncan Smith does not have to say until the end of the debate whether or not he will put his amendment to a vote. In theory the debate could run until 6pm, but it is expected to wrap up well before that.
Dowden is winding up his speech now.Dowden is winding up his speech now.
He says he accepts he has not given the Tory rebels everything they want.He says he accepts he has not given the Tory rebels everything they want.
But he says that he hopes he has given them some of what they want, and explained how the government can get to the point which they all want to see, where there are no high-risk vendors in the network at all.But he says that he hopes he has given them some of what they want, and explained how the government can get to the point which they all want to see, where there are no high-risk vendors in the network at all.
He stresses the point about how there will be “huge opportunities” for Tory MPs to propose amendments when the 5G legislation, the telecommunications security bill, comes to the Commons.He stresses the point about how there will be “huge opportunities” for Tory MPs to propose amendments when the 5G legislation, the telecommunications security bill, comes to the Commons.
The Tory MP Steve Brine says he will not support the Duncan Smith amendment. But he wants to know if the telecommunications security bill will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny.The Tory MP Steve Brine says he will not support the Duncan Smith amendment. But he wants to know if the telecommunications security bill will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny.
Dowden says he wants there to be maximum consultation on it.Dowden says he wants there to be maximum consultation on it.
Labour’s Chi Onwurah says he has heard nothing new from Dowden. Is Dowden just talking about diversification? Or is he talking about diversifiction, with a view to having no Huawei involvement?Labour’s Chi Onwurah says he has heard nothing new from Dowden. Is Dowden just talking about diversification? Or is he talking about diversifiction, with a view to having no Huawei involvement?
Dowden says he is making three new commitments today.Dowden says he is making three new commitments today.
He has promised to bring forward a new bill.He has promised to bring forward a new bill.
He has promised to work with Five Eyes partners on this. And he has said that this process will happen in this parliament.He has promised to work with Five Eyes partners on this. And he has said that this process will happen in this parliament.
And he is promising that the national cyber security centre will be allowed to give evidence to parliamentary committees about Huawei.And he is promising that the national cyber security centre will be allowed to give evidence to parliamentary committees about Huawei.
The Tory MP Bob Seely asks if the government has a timetable for when Huawei might be removed from the network.The Tory MP Bob Seely asks if the government has a timetable for when Huawei might be removed from the network.
Dowden says the government is not setting out a timetable now. But he says MPs will be able to table amendments on this when the 5G legislation comes to parliament.Dowden says the government is not setting out a timetable now. But he says MPs will be able to table amendments on this when the 5G legislation comes to parliament.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith intervenes again. He says the commitment to engage with Five Eyes is new, and a five-year timescale is new.Sir Iain Duncan Smith intervenes again. He says the commitment to engage with Five Eyes is new, and a five-year timescale is new.
But he says he wants clarity on the government being committed to having no involvement from Huawei. If he does not get clarity, he will push his amendment to a vote.But he says he wants clarity on the government being committed to having no involvement from Huawei. If he does not get clarity, he will push his amendment to a vote.
Dowden says Duncan Smith will be able to raise this issue in the 5G legislation later this year.Dowden says Duncan Smith will be able to raise this issue in the 5G legislation later this year.
He says Duncan Smith’s message has been heard and understood.He says Duncan Smith’s message has been heard and understood.
He says the government wants to reduce its reliance on high-risk vendors. And he says he wants to get to the position where the government does not have to use them at all.He says the government wants to reduce its reliance on high-risk vendors. And he says he wants to get to the position where the government does not have to use them at all.
But to get from point a to point b, the government needs to generate more capacity, he says.But to get from point a to point b, the government needs to generate more capacity, he says.
And he says other committees, as well as the intelligence and security committee, will be allowed to scrutinise this.And he says other committees, as well as the intelligence and security committee, will be allowed to scrutinise this.
Asked if the government can introduce 5G without Huawei, Dowden says of course it could be done without Huawei.Asked if the government can introduce 5G without Huawei, Dowden says of course it could be done without Huawei.
Dowden says the government is clear it wants to diversify away from Huawei. He is setting out today how that might happen.Dowden says the government is clear it wants to diversify away from Huawei. He is setting out today how that might happen.
He says the government is committed to working within this parliament to finding the capacity so that it can start to move away from Huawei.He says the government is committed to working within this parliament to finding the capacity so that it can start to move away from Huawei.
Owen Paterson, another Tory former cabinet minister who signed the Duncan Smith amendment, asks if the government can commit to getting Huawei’s involvement down to zero.Owen Paterson, another Tory former cabinet minister who signed the Duncan Smith amendment, asks if the government can commit to getting Huawei’s involvement down to zero.
Dowden says the government is committed to diversification.Dowden says the government is committed to diversification.
David Davis, the Tory former Brexit secretary and a signatory to the Duncan Smith amendment, says Dowden is wrong to say there are no alternative providers.David Davis, the Tory former Brexit secretary and a signatory to the Duncan Smith amendment, says Dowden is wrong to say there are no alternative providers.
Dowden says Ericsson and Nokia are the only other providers available. But that is not enough at the moment.Dowden says Ericsson and Nokia are the only other providers available. But that is not enough at the moment.
But he says the government is committed to working with its Five Eyes partners within this parliament to find alternative providers.But he says the government is committed to working with its Five Eyes partners within this parliament to find alternative providers.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith intervenes. He asks if it now government policy to move towards “no involvement of high-risk vendors within our system”?
Dowden says he thinks they all agree; they would like to have no involvement from high-risk vendors.
But, he says, there is no alternative capacity at the moment.
Oliver Dowden, the culture secretary, is speaking now.
He says the government will introduce its 5G legislation before the summer recess.
He says the government is “clear-eyed” about the risk posed by high-risk vendors.
He says the 35% cap (the maximum amount of the 5G network allowed to Huawei) will be kept under review.
And the government will be working with partners on finding alternative providers. That work will be carried out in this parliament, he says.
But he says he cannot set a deadline for when Huawei might be excluded.
He says MPs will be able to propose amendments on this when the 5G bill is being debated.
This is what Sir Iain Duncan Smith said in the debate a few minutes ago when he set out what were effectively his negotiating demands to ministers - the conditions that would have to apply to persuade him not to put his amendment to a vote. He said:
Duncan Smith says the government has said that it wants to work towards having no high-risk vendors (ie, no Huawei) in 5G.
He accepts that this bill might not be the best vehicle for an anti-Huawei amendment.
But he says he wants three things.
First, he wants an assurance that the government will move towards eliminating Huawei from the network. That means working with allies.
He says that pledge must be made clearly, with a timescale.
And he says the government must commit to bringing forward a bill later this year, by May, setting out the government’s intentions.
He says he will only decide whether or not to pull his amendment when he has heard what the minister is saying.
And he says the government must “commence the beginnings of that retraction before the end of this parliament”. He repeats the point about willing to be flexible on his precise deadline. (See 1.59am.)
Duncan Smith offers to call off revolt if government promises to include long-term plan to exclude Huawei in legislation.
In the light of the commitments already made by Oliver Dowden, the culture secretary, in his letter to MPs (see 1.34pm), it sounds more likely than not that Duncan Smith will pull his amendment later.
Duncan Smith says the UK is alone in its assessment on this matter. He says its security partners take a different view of the threat posed by Huawei.
Damian Green, the Tory former first secretary of state, says if the UK allows Huawei to build its 5G, other countries will do the same. So the effect of this decision will be to allow the Chinese to infiltrate telecoms in many countries, he says.
Duncan Smith says that is a powerful argument. China will capture telecoms in these countries, he says.
Duncan Smith says there is a danger that the UK would become even more dependent on Huawei. One estimate is that after three years the UK would be fully dependent on it for 5G.
He says this would be a threat to national security.
He says there are three other firms that could supply 5G infrastructure to the UK: Nokia, Ericsson and Samsung.
He says people say these providers would cost more. But in a debate between cost and security, security should win every time, he says.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader and former work and pensions secretary, is speaking now. He has tabled the rebel amendment backed by 26 Tories. (See 12.18pm and 1.30pm.)
He says it is wrong to describe Huawei as a private company. It is owned by Chinese trade unions, and controlled by the Chinese government.
And he says it is wrong to describe this as a market failure problem. He says it is just that other companies have not been able to compete with Huawei because it has been subsidised by the Chinese government.
The Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, chair of the defence committee, intervenes. He says Duncan Smith’s amendment may not be put to a vote today because of the latest assurances from the government. (See 1.34pm.) But he says they will have put down a marker. He says there are five possible global vendors. But two of them are not allowed to operate outside Japan and South Korea. If they were, the UK would not need to use Huawei, he says.
Duncan Smith accepts this point. He says there used to be 12 firms in this market. He says he does not think Huawei technology is superior. It is just that they are cheaper because they are so heavily subsidised.
The Tory MP Alec Shelbrooke asks if Duncan Smith would be willing to change the deadline he has set (December 2022) for the removal of Huawei.
Duncan Smith says he is “flexible” on the date. But what matters is the government’s commitment to getting rid of Huawei, he says.
This is from the Spectator’s James Forsyth on today’s debate.
Onwurah says Labour’s amendment differs from Sir Iain Duncan Smith’s (see 1.30pm) in two respects.
She says Labour’s would ban Huawei (or equipment from a “high-risk vendor”, to use the government’s terminology) immediately, while Duncan Smith’s would only bring in a ban from 2023.
And she says Labour’s amendment would only apply to “newly deployed” telecommunications infrastructure, while Duncan Smith’s would apply to all telecommunications infrastructure, she says.
These are from ITV’s Paul Brand.