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Minister defends right of business leaders to call PM as ‘government by WhatsApp’ controversy continues – politics live Committee chair warns of ‘danger of government by WhatsApp’ as MPs hear details of Cameron’s Greensill lobbying – politics live
(32 minutes later)
Loophole in ministerial code means messages from business leaders and politicians need not be disclosedLoophole in ministerial code means messages from business leaders and politicians need not be disclosed
The section of the public accounts committee hearing devoted to Greensill is now over.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Con) goes next.
Q: People need a safe space where ministers and officials can have private conversations. What impact will this have on that?
Scholar says he would go back to the public interest point. The pubic has a right to know about certain things. But the public interest is also served by government business being conducted effectively. He says the Freedom of Information Act sets out to balance those two principles.
He says there is a question as to at what point the balance shifts, and the public interest tips in favour of disclosure.
Q: Are these stories having a chilling effect?
Scholar says it is too early to say.
Q: How did the chancellor’s text messages to Cameron come out?
Scholar says Rishi Sunak decided to release them.
Q: Would he have had to do so under the Freedom of Information Act?
Scholar says that is a legal question. He cannot answer that, he says.
Q: Ministers are constantly assailed by people giving them advice. It would be odd if they weren’t. Does this mean every person they have contact with is subject to scrutiny. If so, all these contacts would become public interviews.
Scholar goes back to the Nolan report of 1995. People have a right to lobby ministers. But it is for government to decide how these approaches are handled appropropriately.
Q: Do you have rules about WhatsApp?
Scholar says Treasury officials have clear rules in their heads about the need to record conversations, and the basis on which decisions were taken.
Meg Hillier, the committee chair, says there is a “danger of government by WhatsApp”.
Q: Greensill came back to you time and time again. Did other businesses do that?
Roxburgh says Greensill were persistent.
In the second stage of the process (see 10.46am), the Treasury thought it was worth considering whether there was an industry-wide solution to supply chain issues that might work.
Nick Smith (Lab) is asking the questions now.
Q: Did David Cameron speak to Michael Gove or the governor of the Bank of England about this?
Scholar says he does not know.
Roxburgh says he is not aware of any contacts like that. He says Cameron spoke to Scholar, Rishi Sunak and John Glen. Details of those contacts will be released soon.
Q: Where people listening in?
Scholar says some were minuted conversations, and some were unsolicited calls where the contents were then passed on.
Q: How many calls were there in total?
Scholar says he and Roxburgh were on one call with Cameron. Scholar took another call. There were also calls to Sunak and Glen.
Q: Should supply chain finance be regulated?
Scholar says business lending in general is not regulated.
Clifton-Brown says the Greensill proposal sounds to him like Ponzi scheme. Again, he expressed surprise that the Treasury was looking at it.
Scholar stresses that the Greensill plan was not taken forward.
Q: Did you know what Greensill was leveraging future income? Would you have had a conversation if you did?
Scholar says they were learning about what Greensill was doing.
Q: If you knew then what you know about them now, would you have had a conversation with them.
Scholar says if he knew everything they found out by the time they took a decision, the answer would have been no.
Q: Would you have even taken the phone call if you had known what you know now?
Scholar says if they had known what they had to find out, that would have saved a lot of time. But they did not know.
He says it is not the job of the Treasury to make assessments of private companies - except where that is relevant to the Treasury’s responsibilities. It considered if Greensill was eligible for its scheme, and rejected it.
Clifton-Brown turns to Scholar.
Q: Did you know of all David Cameron’s contacts with Treasury ministers?
Scholar says they knew Cameron was an adviser to the company, because that was mentioned in an original letter from the company. He says Rishi Sunak declared his call with Cameron after it happened.
He says he thinks Cameron’s contacts with John Glen, the economic secretary, were recorded around the same time. He says the details will be set out in the Treasury’s response to a freedom of information request.
Roxburgh explains why Greensill Capital was not given access to the Covid corporate financing facility (CCFF). He says the scheme was for firms able to offer commercial paper that was investment grade. But Greensill Capital was not in this category, he says. He says it wanted the CCFF to buy commercial paper on non-standard terms.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Con) says that it sounds as if it should have been obvious that Greensill was not eligible. He says he is surprised the Treasury spent so long considering this.
These are from Sky’s Sam Coates on the significance of Sir Tom Scholar saying that he would always take a call from a former minister he had worked with. Scholar implied that this was just a matter of common courtesy. (See 10.54pm.) But, as Coates points out, this illustrates why former ministers are not in the same position as others engaged in corporate lobbying and why their involvement implies favouritism is in play.These are from Sky’s Sam Coates on the significance of Sir Tom Scholar saying that he would always take a call from a former minister he had worked with. Scholar implied that this was just a matter of common courtesy. (See 10.54pm.) But, as Coates points out, this illustrates why former ministers are not in the same position as others engaged in corporate lobbying and why their involvement implies favouritism is in play.
Meg Hillier is speaking to Sir Tom Scholar again?Meg Hillier is speaking to Sir Tom Scholar again?
Q: Did you take the call from David Cameron because he was a former PM?Q: Did you take the call from David Cameron because he was a former PM?
Scholar says he would always take a call from a minister he has worked with.Scholar says he would always take a call from a minister he has worked with.
But he did not have a substantive discussion with Cameron about the scheme, he says.But he did not have a substantive discussion with Cameron about the scheme, he says.
He says he knew Cameron was an adviser to Greensill Capital.He says he knew Cameron was an adviser to Greensill Capital.
He says he was only involved in one call with the company about its application for the corporate finance facility. Otherwise Roxburgh dealt with it, he says.He says he was only involved in one call with the company about its application for the corporate finance facility. Otherwise Roxburgh dealt with it, he says.
He quotes from the original Nolan report in 1995, which said that everyone has a right to lobby parliament and ministers. It is for institutions to decide how they handle these approaches, the report said. It said institutions should consider the public interest. Scholar says this is what the Treasury did.He quotes from the original Nolan report in 1995, which said that everyone has a right to lobby parliament and ministers. It is for institutions to decide how they handle these approaches, the report said. It said institutions should consider the public interest. Scholar says this is what the Treasury did.
Scholar says since Cameron left office, he has seen him two or three times, but never to discuss government business.Scholar says since Cameron left office, he has seen him two or three times, but never to discuss government business.
Q: Why did you talk to Greensill?Q: Why did you talk to Greensill?
Roxburgh says his job involved talking to a lot of companies. It is normal for him to discuss proposals like this.Roxburgh says his job involved talking to a lot of companies. It is normal for him to discuss proposals like this.
Charles Roxburgh, second permanent secretary, says he had nine meetings with Greensill.
He says the meetings fell into three phases.
He says there were two calls in late March when Greensill wanted to join the corporate financing facility. The Treasury rejected that application.
He says the second phase was from early April to mid-May, when Greensill wanted the Treasury to help it offer support to firms with supply chains. There was a consultation on an industry-wide scheme. But the Treasury decided not to go ahead with it.
And then the final phase came when Greensill proposed another supply chain facility. The Treasury decided not to go ahead with that.
At the public accounts committee Meg Hillier, the chair, is now asking questions about Greensill Capital.
Q: How many meetings did you have with Greensill Capital?
None in person, says Sir Tom Scholar, the permanent secretary.
He says he took part in one conference call.
The Treasury is making a list of other meetings, in response to a Freedom of Information request.
And at around the same time, Scholar says he had a call with David Cameron (who was working for Greensill). That was around the end of March, the beginning of April.
Scholar says he spoke to Cameron on his mobile phone. But it was an official mobile phone; Scholar was working from home. And he says Cameron had his number because Scholar used to work for him when he was PM.
The SNP could miss out on a majority at the Holyrood election, according to a new poll. As PA Media reports, the Savanta ComRes survey for The Scotsman predicts the party will return 63 MSPs - two short of a majority and the same number as in 2016. PA says:
Here are the Savanta ComRes charts.
Coronavirus was no longer the leading cause of death in both England and Wales in March for the first time since October, PA Media reports. PA says:
The public accounts committee hearing has started, but Meg Hillier, the chair, says they will start with questions about equitable life. That means the Greensill section will start a bit later.
The Commons public accounts committee is about to take evidence from Treasury officials about Greensill Capital, and other topics. The Greensill section is only due to last about 15 minutes, but it should come up first.
The witnesses are Sir Tom Scholar, the permanent secretary; Cat Little, director general, public spending; Charles Roxburgh, second permanent secretary; and Martin Clarke, the government actuary.
Here is an excerpt from Harry Yorke’s story in the Daily Telegraph (paywall) about the concerns in No 10 about Boris Johnson’s willingness to hand out his phone number. Yorke says:
And here is an extract from Steven Swinford’s story in the Times (paywall) on the same theme.
Sarah Champion, the chair of the committee, starts by asking why Raab did not make an oral statement to the Commons about the aid spending for 2021-22.
Raab says these figures would not normally be published at the start of the financial year. But he published the written statement so the committee could ask him about that today, he says.
Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, is about to give evidence to the Commons international development committee. He is, of course, now secretary of state for foreign, Commonwealth and development affairs after the Department for International Affairs was merged with the Foreign Office.
He will be asked about the aid spending announcement made last night in the form of a Commons written statement.
Good morning. As my colleagues Jessica Elgot and Dan Sabbagh report, after yesterday’s revelations about Boris Johnson agreeing by text message to amend tax rules at the request of Sir James Dyson to make it easier for his firm to get involved in the emergency ventilator production effort, there is increasing concern about extent to which Johnson is operating “government by WhatsApp”. This might seem innocuous, but it means the usual rules about the disclosure of contacts with third parties are much harder to apply.
There is a new twist to the story today with reports, in the Telegraph and in the Times, that Simon Case, the cabinet secretary, suggested Johnson should change his mobile phone number to stop people using it to lobby him.
As the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg points out, No 10 is denying this - although, given that there is a big difference between Case “telling” the PM to change his number and Case “floating the idea” it is not quite clear yet how comprehensive the denial is.
This morning Kwasi Kwarteng, the business secretary, defended the right of ministers to communicate with people outside government in this way. He said it was “very good” that business leaders and constituents had “direct access” to ministers and those making decisions in Whitehall. He told Sky News:
Here is the agenda for the day.
9.30am: Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, gives evidence to the Commons international development committee.
9.30am: The ONS publishes its latest figures on coronavirus infections in schools.
10am: Sir Tom Scholar, permanent secretary at the Treasury, and other Treasury officials give evidence to the Commons public accounts committee about Greensill Capital.
Around 11.30am: Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, gives a statement to MPs about the failure of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to properly commemorate thousands of mostly African and Asian soldiers who died in the first world war.
12pm: Downing Street is due to hold its daily lobby briefing.
After 1pm: Boris Johnson is due to speak at the virtual leaders’ climate summit hosted by the US president Joe Biden.
Covid is the issue dominating UK politics this year and Politics Live is often largely or wholly devoted to coronavirus at the moment. But I will be covering non-Covid politics too and - depending on what seems most important and most interesting to readers - sometimes these stories will take precedence.
For global coronavirus news, do read our global live blog.
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