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Committee chair warns of ‘danger of government by WhatsApp’ as MPs hear details of Cameron’s Greensill lobbying – politics live Defence secretary says prejudice led to black and Asian world war one soldiers not being commemorated properly – politics live
(32 minutes later)
Loophole in ministerial code means messages from business leaders and politicians need not be disclosed Latest updates: Ben Wallace says Imperial War Graves Commission did not commemorate all soldiers equally
Wallace said the Commonwealth War Graves Commission will search out inequalities, and act on what it found.
It will renew its commitment to equality in commemorations, he said.
And it would act to ensure the hidden history of former empire communities, and their contribution in the two world wars, is brought to life, he said.
Wallace says when the Imperial War Graves Commission was set up, it was supposed to commemorate all soldiers equally.
But this did not happen, he says. He says there were cases where it deliberately overlooked evidence that might enable to to find names of the dead.
He says after the first world war in parts of Africa, the Middle East and India, the dead were not treated equally.
He said the graves of up to 54,000 soldiers, who were mostly Indian, East Africans, West Africans, Egyptians and Somalis, were not marked by individual headstones.
Some were only remembered in inscriptions or in registers, and another 116,000 personnel, mostly East Africans and Egyptians, were not named, or even commemorated at all, he says.
He says there is no doubt that prejudice played a part in that.
In the Commons Ben Wallace, the defence secretary is now making a statement about the failure of the Commonweath War Graves Commission to properly commemorate black and Asian solidiers.
Here is my colleague Rajeev Syal’s preview story about this announcement.
The section of the public accounts committee hearing devoted to Greensill is now over.The section of the public accounts committee hearing devoted to Greensill is now over.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Con) goes next.Sir Bernard Jenkin (Con) goes next.
Q: People need a safe space where ministers and officials can have private conversations. What impact will this have on that?Q: People need a safe space where ministers and officials can have private conversations. What impact will this have on that?
Scholar says he would go back to the public interest point. The pubic has a right to know about certain things. But the public interest is also served by government business being conducted effectively. He says the Freedom of Information Act sets out to balance those two principles.Scholar says he would go back to the public interest point. The pubic has a right to know about certain things. But the public interest is also served by government business being conducted effectively. He says the Freedom of Information Act sets out to balance those two principles.
He says there is a question as to at what point the balance shifts, and the public interest tips in favour of disclosure.He says there is a question as to at what point the balance shifts, and the public interest tips in favour of disclosure.
Q: Are these stories having a chilling effect?Q: Are these stories having a chilling effect?
Scholar says it is too early to say.Scholar says it is too early to say.
Q: How did the chancellor’s text messages to Cameron come out?Q: How did the chancellor’s text messages to Cameron come out?
Scholar says Rishi Sunak decided to release them.Scholar says Rishi Sunak decided to release them.
Q: Would he have had to do so under the Freedom of Information Act?Q: Would he have had to do so under the Freedom of Information Act?
Scholar says that is a legal question. He cannot answer that, he says.Scholar says that is a legal question. He cannot answer that, he says.
Q: Ministers are constantly assailed by people giving them advice. It would be odd if they weren’t. Does this mean every person they have contact with is subject to scrutiny. If so, all these contacts would become public interviews.Q: Ministers are constantly assailed by people giving them advice. It would be odd if they weren’t. Does this mean every person they have contact with is subject to scrutiny. If so, all these contacts would become public interviews.
Scholar goes back to the Nolan report of 1995. People have a right to lobby ministers. But it is for government to decide how these approaches are handled appropropriately.Scholar goes back to the Nolan report of 1995. People have a right to lobby ministers. But it is for government to decide how these approaches are handled appropropriately.
Q: Do you have rules about WhatsApp?Q: Do you have rules about WhatsApp?
Scholar says Treasury officials have clear rules in their heads about the need to record conversations, and the basis on which decisions were taken.Scholar says Treasury officials have clear rules in their heads about the need to record conversations, and the basis on which decisions were taken.
Meg Hillier, the committee chair, says there is a “danger of government by WhatsApp”.Meg Hillier, the committee chair, says there is a “danger of government by WhatsApp”.
Q: Greensill came back to you time and time again. Did other businesses do that?Q: Greensill came back to you time and time again. Did other businesses do that?
Roxburgh says Greensill were persistent.Roxburgh says Greensill were persistent.
In the second stage of the process (see 10.46am), the Treasury thought it was worth considering whether there was an industry-wide solution to supply chain issues that might work.In the second stage of the process (see 10.46am), the Treasury thought it was worth considering whether there was an industry-wide solution to supply chain issues that might work.
Nick Smith (Lab) is asking the questions now.Nick Smith (Lab) is asking the questions now.
Q: Did David Cameron speak to Michael Gove or the governor of the Bank of England about this?Q: Did David Cameron speak to Michael Gove or the governor of the Bank of England about this?
Scholar says he does not know.Scholar says he does not know.
Roxburgh says he is not aware of any contacts like that. He says Cameron spoke to Scholar, Rishi Sunak and John Glen. Details of those contacts will be released soon.Roxburgh says he is not aware of any contacts like that. He says Cameron spoke to Scholar, Rishi Sunak and John Glen. Details of those contacts will be released soon.
Q: Where people listening in?Q: Where people listening in?
Scholar says some were minuted conversations, and some were unsolicited calls where the contents were then passed on.Scholar says some were minuted conversations, and some were unsolicited calls where the contents were then passed on.
Q: How many calls were there in total?Q: How many calls were there in total?
Scholar says he and Roxburgh were on one call with Cameron. Scholar took another call. There were also calls to Sunak and Glen.Scholar says he and Roxburgh were on one call with Cameron. Scholar took another call. There were also calls to Sunak and Glen.
Q: Should supply chain finance be regulated?Q: Should supply chain finance be regulated?
Scholar says business lending in general is not regulated.Scholar says business lending in general is not regulated.
Clifton-Brown says the Greensill proposal sounds to him like Ponzi scheme. Again, he expressed surprise that the Treasury was looking at it.Clifton-Brown says the Greensill proposal sounds to him like Ponzi scheme. Again, he expressed surprise that the Treasury was looking at it.
Scholar stresses that the Greensill plan was not taken forward.Scholar stresses that the Greensill plan was not taken forward.
Q: Did you know what Greensill was leveraging future income? Would you have had a conversation if you did?Q: Did you know what Greensill was leveraging future income? Would you have had a conversation if you did?
Scholar says they were learning about what Greensill was doing.Scholar says they were learning about what Greensill was doing.
Q: If you knew then what you know about them now, would you have had a conversation with them.Q: If you knew then what you know about them now, would you have had a conversation with them.
Scholar says if he knew everything they found out by the time they took a decision, the answer would have been no.Scholar says if he knew everything they found out by the time they took a decision, the answer would have been no.
Q: Would you have even taken the phone call if you had known what you know now?Q: Would you have even taken the phone call if you had known what you know now?
Scholar says if they had known what they had to find out, that would have saved a lot of time. But they did not know.Scholar says if they had known what they had to find out, that would have saved a lot of time. But they did not know.
He says it is not the job of the Treasury to make assessments of private companies - except where that is relevant to the Treasury’s responsibilities. It considered if Greensill was eligible for its scheme, and rejected it.He says it is not the job of the Treasury to make assessments of private companies - except where that is relevant to the Treasury’s responsibilities. It considered if Greensill was eligible for its scheme, and rejected it.
Clifton-Brown turns to Scholar.Clifton-Brown turns to Scholar.
Q: Did you know of all David Cameron’s contacts with Treasury ministers?Q: Did you know of all David Cameron’s contacts with Treasury ministers?
Scholar says they knew Cameron was an adviser to the company, because that was mentioned in an original letter from the company. He says Rishi Sunak declared his call with Cameron after it happened.Scholar says they knew Cameron was an adviser to the company, because that was mentioned in an original letter from the company. He says Rishi Sunak declared his call with Cameron after it happened.
He says he thinks Cameron’s contacts with John Glen, the economic secretary, were recorded around the same time. He says the details will be set out in the Treasury’s response to a freedom of information request.He says he thinks Cameron’s contacts with John Glen, the economic secretary, were recorded around the same time. He says the details will be set out in the Treasury’s response to a freedom of information request.
Roxburgh explains why Greensill Capital was not given access to the Covid corporate financing facility (CCFF). He says the scheme was for firms able to offer commercial paper that was investment grade. But Greensill Capital was not in this category, he says. He says it wanted the CCFF to buy commercial paper on non-standard terms.Roxburgh explains why Greensill Capital was not given access to the Covid corporate financing facility (CCFF). He says the scheme was for firms able to offer commercial paper that was investment grade. But Greensill Capital was not in this category, he says. He says it wanted the CCFF to buy commercial paper on non-standard terms.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Con) says that it sounds as if it should have been obvious that Greensill was not eligible. He says he is surprised the Treasury spent so long considering this.Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Con) says that it sounds as if it should have been obvious that Greensill was not eligible. He says he is surprised the Treasury spent so long considering this.
These are from Sky’s Sam Coates on the significance of Sir Tom Scholar saying that he would always take a call from a former minister he had worked with. Scholar implied that this was just a matter of common courtesy. (See 10.54pm.) But, as Coates points out, this illustrates why former ministers are not in the same position as others engaged in corporate lobbying and why their involvement implies favouritism is in play.These are from Sky’s Sam Coates on the significance of Sir Tom Scholar saying that he would always take a call from a former minister he had worked with. Scholar implied that this was just a matter of common courtesy. (See 10.54pm.) But, as Coates points out, this illustrates why former ministers are not in the same position as others engaged in corporate lobbying and why their involvement implies favouritism is in play.
Meg Hillier is speaking to Sir Tom Scholar again?Meg Hillier is speaking to Sir Tom Scholar again?
Q: Did you take the call from David Cameron because he was a former PM?Q: Did you take the call from David Cameron because he was a former PM?
Scholar says he would always take a call from a minister he has worked with.Scholar says he would always take a call from a minister he has worked with.
But he did not have a substantive discussion with Cameron about the scheme, he says.But he did not have a substantive discussion with Cameron about the scheme, he says.
He says he knew Cameron was an adviser to Greensill Capital.He says he knew Cameron was an adviser to Greensill Capital.
He says he was only involved in one call with the company about its application for the corporate finance facility. Otherwise Roxburgh dealt with it, he says.He says he was only involved in one call with the company about its application for the corporate finance facility. Otherwise Roxburgh dealt with it, he says.
He quotes from the original Nolan report in 1995, which said that everyone has a right to lobby parliament and ministers. It is for institutions to decide how they handle these approaches, the report said. It said institutions should consider the public interest. Scholar says this is what the Treasury did.He quotes from the original Nolan report in 1995, which said that everyone has a right to lobby parliament and ministers. It is for institutions to decide how they handle these approaches, the report said. It said institutions should consider the public interest. Scholar says this is what the Treasury did.
Scholar says since Cameron left office, he has seen him two or three times, but never to discuss government business.Scholar says since Cameron left office, he has seen him two or three times, but never to discuss government business.
Q: Why did you talk to Greensill?Q: Why did you talk to Greensill?
Roxburgh says his job involved talking to a lot of companies. It is normal for him to discuss proposals like this.Roxburgh says his job involved talking to a lot of companies. It is normal for him to discuss proposals like this.