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MPs vote on House of Lords reform MPs vote on House of Lords reform
(20 minutes later)
MPs are voting on whether they want all, or some, members of a reformed House of Lords to be elected.MPs are voting on whether they want all, or some, members of a reformed House of Lords to be elected.
Commons leader Jack Straw has put forward nine options, ranging from all appointed, as now, to all elected.Commons leader Jack Straw has put forward nine options, ranging from all appointed, as now, to all elected.
MPs rejected the first choice - all members being appointed - by a majority of 179. They then threw out plans for a 50/50 split by 263 votes. MPs voted by a majority of 38 in favour of 80% of members of the second chamber being elected.
Two other options - 20% and 40% elected - were rejected without a vote. Voting, is set to continue until about 2000GMT. They earlier rejected five options - all members being appointed, and having 20%, 40%, 50% or 60% elected. MPs still have to vote on the all-elected option.
Long debateLong debate
MPs of all parties have been given a free vote - rather than orders - on the issue. More than one choice can gain a majority.
LORDS REFORM VOTING All appointed house - rejected by 179 votes20% elected - rejected, no vote40% elected - rejected, no voteHalf elected/half appointed - rejected by 263 votes As no bill is being debated, the most popular option will not pass into law - the votes are intended instead to inform future government policy.
Mr Straw earlier said: "The choice in my judgement is stark - change or wither away."Mr Straw earlier said: "The choice in my judgement is stark - change or wither away."
It is possible for more than one of the choices to be backed by a majority of MPs. LORDS REFORM VOTING All appointed house - rejected by 179 votes20% elected - rejected, no vote40% elected - rejected, no voteHalf elected/half appointed - rejected by 263 votes60% elected - rejected by 214 votes
However, as no bill is being debated, the most popular option will not pass into law - it is intended to inform future government policy.
While MPs debated the issue, Labour peer Lord Lipsey, former economics editor of the Sunday Times, published figures of £1,092m as the cost for the proposed shake-up.While MPs debated the issue, Labour peer Lord Lipsey, former economics editor of the Sunday Times, published figures of £1,092m as the cost for the proposed shake-up.
REFORM PROPOSALS A 'hybrid' of elected and appointed peersReduce size of House from 746 to 540 membersEnd hereditary and life peerages over timeElected peers to be voted in at same time as Euro electionsMaximum time in office of 15 years for elected and appointed peersAppointees a mixture of party politicians and non-party figuresLords may be renamed - possibly 'The Reformed Chamber'Anglican bishops and archbishops to keep seats Plans at-a-glance Full text of White Paper
He said he used official figures and plausible assumptions to reach the estimate, but a government source dismissed that figure as based on "back-of-an-envelope calculations".He said he used official figures and plausible assumptions to reach the estimate, but a government source dismissed that figure as based on "back-of-an-envelope calculations".
The last time the Commons voted on Lords reform, Mr Straw backed plans for a wholly appointed upper house.The last time the Commons voted on Lords reform, Mr Straw backed plans for a wholly appointed upper house.
He told MPs that while he had initially thought an elected second chamber would "undermine" the primacy of the Commons, he had since changed his mind.He told MPs that while he had initially thought an elected second chamber would "undermine" the primacy of the Commons, he had since changed his mind.
REFORM PROPOSALS A 'hybrid' of elected and appointed peersReduce size of House from 746 to 540 membersEnd hereditary and life peerages over timeElected peers to be voted in at same time as Euro electionsMaximum time in office of 15 years for elected and appointed peersAppointees a mixture of party politicians and non-party figuresLords may be renamed - possibly 'The Reformed Chamber'Anglican bishops and archbishops to keep seats Plans at-a-glance Full text of White Paper
But he admitted that if there was a partially or wholly elected upper house, "then the appetite to challenge this place [the Commons] will increase.But he admitted that if there was a partially or wholly elected upper house, "then the appetite to challenge this place [the Commons] will increase.
"We have to anticipate that when drawing up the framework for how a second house will work," Mr Straw said."We have to anticipate that when drawing up the framework for how a second house will work," Mr Straw said.
Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said the "primacy" of the Commons was overrated.Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said the "primacy" of the Commons was overrated.
"There are some people in this House who are concerned about the matter - my point is the 60 million people out there (who) couldn't care less about the primacy of anything, particularly the House of Commons.""There are some people in this House who are concerned about the matter - my point is the 60 million people out there (who) couldn't care less about the primacy of anything, particularly the House of Commons."
He said in constitutional terms what mattered was "can the government govern?"He said in constitutional terms what mattered was "can the government govern?"
'Historic week''Historic week'
Liberal Democrat constitutional affairs spokesman Simon Hughes said his party would only vote for the 80% and 100% elected options.Liberal Democrat constitutional affairs spokesman Simon Hughes said his party would only vote for the 80% and 100% elected options.
He added: "This could be a historic week, and it will be if we don't make the mistake of February 2003 [when attempts to reform the Lords failed]."He added: "This could be a historic week, and it will be if we don't make the mistake of February 2003 [when attempts to reform the Lords failed]."
At the moment all peers are appointed, apart from the 92 hereditary peers who survived the first phase of Lords reform during Tony Blair's first term in office.At the moment all peers are appointed, apart from the 92 hereditary peers who survived the first phase of Lords reform during Tony Blair's first term in office.
Labour's Sir Gerald Kaufman said six of the options were "gibberish", with abolition, 100% elected or 100% appointed being the only possibilities.Labour's Sir Gerald Kaufman said six of the options were "gibberish", with abolition, 100% elected or 100% appointed being the only possibilities.
But he warned that regardless of the vote on Wednesday, the next prime minister would not allow "his only full session of this Parliament to be bogged down with this ludicrous nonsense".But he warned that regardless of the vote on Wednesday, the next prime minister would not allow "his only full session of this Parliament to be bogged down with this ludicrous nonsense".
Any changes would face a big challenge to get through the Commons. Even if they did so they would then be expected to face a rough ride in the Lords.Any changes would face a big challenge to get through the Commons. Even if they did so they would then be expected to face a rough ride in the Lords.