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Lords debate on reform continues Lords expected to oppose reforms
(about 9 hours later)
Plans to reform the House of Lords are expected to be opposed by the peers themselves in a vote later. The House of Lords is expected to oppose government plans to elect most, or all, of its members in future.
It is the second day of a two-day debate in the Upper House on the plans. Peers end a two-day debate on Wednesday by voting on choices ranging from creating an all-elected second chamber to keeping an all-appointed one.
On the first day the Archbishop of York, the Most Rev John Sentamu, said elected peers would be less independent and a half-elected house may not work. They are expected to come out strongly against last week's Commons vote in favour of all members being elected.
His views were echoed on all sides, with only a handful of peers backing the fully-elected chamber demanded by MPs in a vote last week. The last government attempt to reform the Lords, in 2003, failed after MPs could not agree on a way forward.
On Wednesday peers will vote on eight options, ranging from a wholly appointed Lords, to one that is fully elected. Manifesto
Peers are expected to reject the MPs' proposals for reform. On Tuesday, the Archbishop of York, the Most Rev John Sentamu, told peers that elected members would be less independent. His views were echoed on all sides.
That would trigger a fresh debate about the composition of the Upper House, as Commons leader Jack Straw battles to reach a compromise with the widest possible backing. Commons leader Jack Straw, who proposed the plans, is battling to reach a compromise with the widest possible backing.
We have no reason to fear that if we are removed, the world would come to an end Lord Desai There have been suggestions that some MPs who voted in favour of a 100% elected second chamber wanted to scupper the plans by ensuring an option unacceptable to either the government or peers was chosen.
Much is likely to depend on what Gordon Brown, who is expected to take over as prime minister later this year, wants to put in Labour's next manifesto.
Mr Brown supported an 80% elected and 20% appointed upper house in last week's Commons vote but the majority of MPs backed a wholly elected second chamber.
There have been suggestions their ranks were swollen by opponents of reforms who wanted to scupper the plans by ensuring an option unacceptable to either the government or peers was chosen.
'Self-interest'
The Archbishop of York was among those peers to question whether the suggested changes would lead to a better House.
"Despite the apparent fairness of an elected House, seemingly in the interests of democracy, it may ultimately fail this nation in its desire to value freedom," he said.
The archbishop is among 28 senior members of the Church of England sitting on the cross benches and who would no longer be included in a fully elected house.
REFORM PROPOSALS A 'hybrid' of elected and appointed peersReduce size of House from 746 to 540 membersEnd hereditary and life peerages over timeElected peers to be voted in at same time as Euro electionsMaximum time in office of 15 years for elected and appointed peersAppointees a mixture of party politicians and non-party figuresLords may be renamed - possibly 'The Reformed Chamber'Anglican bishops and archbishops to keep seats Plans at-a-glance Full text of White PaperREFORM PROPOSALS A 'hybrid' of elected and appointed peersReduce size of House from 746 to 540 membersEnd hereditary and life peerages over timeElected peers to be voted in at same time as Euro electionsMaximum time in office of 15 years for elected and appointed peersAppointees a mixture of party politicians and non-party figuresLords may be renamed - possibly 'The Reformed Chamber'Anglican bishops and archbishops to keep seats Plans at-a-glance Full text of White Paper
Labour's Baroness Symons said she would vote for a 100% appointed Lords, as an elected House would threaten the primacy of the Commons.Labour's Baroness Symons said she would vote for a 100% appointed Lords, as an elected House would threaten the primacy of the Commons.
She said it would be "misleading to give the electorate the right to vote, without the right of the elected to deliver on that vote".She said it would be "misleading to give the electorate the right to vote, without the right of the elected to deliver on that vote".
"So I shall vote against all the options on hybridity. Hybridity is not a connection to democracy, it's a connection to constitutional uncertainty and electoral unfairness."
Labour's Lord Desai, who supports a fully elected House, described the MPs' vote as "revolutionary".Labour's Lord Desai, who supports a fully elected House, described the MPs' vote as "revolutionary".
"If we have an all-elected House it will be a new constitutional arrangement."If we have an all-elected House it will be a new constitutional arrangement.
"All the conventions we have fashioned will have to be carefully examined and we may have to face up to a written constitution."All the conventions we have fashioned will have to be carefully examined and we may have to face up to a written constitution.
"We have no reason to fear that if we are removed, the world would come to an end. Perhaps there are other people who could be as good. Let's give the reforms a chance.""We have no reason to fear that if we are removed, the world would come to an end. Perhaps there are other people who could be as good. Let's give the reforms a chance."
Conservative elected hereditary peer, Lord Trefgarne, said he is not opposed to reform but only when it is presented in a more considered manner by the government. Priority
'Momentous change' Conservative Lord Trefgarne said he was not opposed to reform but only when presented in a more considered manner by the government.
Speaking of the White Paper on Lords reform, he said: "Nothing is said about the role of the new chamber, or its powers, the place of the bishops, and many other important matters. In theory the Commons could force through changes against the wishes of the House of Lords, but that would be controversial and take up a great deal of Parliamentary time.
"There should be no more piecemeal reform until the government is ready with thought-through plans, agreed by the Commons and on a cross-party basis, for this momentous change." The issue then would be whether Gordon Brown, or whoever succeeds Tony Blair as prime minister, sees the reform as a high enough priority to justify the amount of government time it would be likely to take up.
Hereditary peer and Liberal Democrat the Earl of Glasgow said: "As a hereditary peer, I have already been abolished once and I don't particularly want to be abolished again. Not quite yet anyway. It really is very unsettling."
He argued for the House not to be turned into a chamber of "professional politicians" but to continue to have "wise men and women and experts and representatives of minority interests".
His preference was for an appointed House - "with perhaps 20% elected, if that would make us feel better".