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Leveson Inquiry: Victims' lawyer tells of surveillance Leveson Inquiry: Spied-on lawyer tells of concerns
(about 3 hours later)
A victims' lawyer has described to the Leveson Inquiry seeing surveillance evidence of her and her family. A lawyer has told the Leveson Inquiry that she was put under surveillance in a bid to discredit solicitors for alleged victims of phone hacking.
Charlotte Harris said she went to News International and the police in 2010 after seeing a dossier on her that was "littered with inaccuracies". Documents relating to the surveillance had mentioned her children, Charlotte Harris told the media ethics inquiry.
Lord Justice Leveson is examining the ethics of the media. A Guardian journalist defended his hacking of an arms company executive's voicemail as "perfectly ethical".
A witness earlier told the inquiry, in London, how he warned a mobile phone company, newspaper and police of a phone security loophole in 1999. Another witness told the inquiry, in London, how he had warned of a mobile phone security loophole back in 1999.
But salesman Steven Nott said his warnings had been repeatedly ignored. But salesman Steven Nott said his warnings to a mobile phone firm, newspaper and the authorities had been repeatedly ignored.
Ms Harris, of law firm Mishcon de Reya, has represented phone hacking victims including sports agent Sky Andrew and celebrity couple Leslie Ash and Lee Chapman. In 2010, News of the World hired a private detective to follow her and fellow victims' lawyer Mark Lewis. 'No justification'
Ms Harris said it was unsettling to discover that News International had commissioned surveillance on her. Ms Harris, of law firm Mishcon de Reya, has represented phone-hacking victims including celebrity couple Leslie Ash and Lee Chapman and sports agent Sky Andrew. In 2010, the News of the World hired a private detective to follow her and fellow victims' lawyer Mark Lewis.
Ms Harris said sometimes not knowing which specific information had been accessed caused the most stress. "It's what you don't know that can cause, I think, stress - that itself might be a new form of harassment to look into. She told the inquiry that she had seen documents relating to the surveillance that "contain comments on my private life and that of my family ... and further emails about the price of obtaining information relating to my children, then aged two and four".
"As a lawyer I feel very much that I want to focus on my cases and clients and I don't want mischief from the other side like surveillance," she said. "As a mother it's natural to feel terribly uncomfortable." She said it was natural as a mother to feel "terribly uncomfortable" about the idea of people investigating her children. The experience of being spied on had also given her an insight into her clients' lives, she said.
Ms Harris said the media appeared to have been more cautious since the inquiry was launched. "I think that the press have been - during this inquiry - more careful. I think my workload in terms of scandal, has been reduced," she said. "One of the difficulties with surveillance, and I hear this from clients but I also speak for myself, is you don't really know what happened when.
'Interpretations of law' "It is what you don't know that can cause stress. That in itself might be a new form of harassment to look into."
David Leigh, the Guardian's investigations editor, told the inquiry that journalists challenged the law and that sometimes it was difficult to stay on the right side of civil law. Ms Harris went on: "There can be no justification for this conduct. The motive was to attempt to discredit those solicitors who were conducting the phone hacking cases.
"We constantly find ourselves in collision with different interpretations of the law," he said. But Mr Leigh said he had never knowingly been in breach of criminal law. "The reports were prepared in order to find a way of stopping us acting in these cases."
Law 'not enforced'
David Leigh, the Guardian's investigations editor, was asked about the hacking of the voicemail of an arms company executive that he had previously admitted to carrying out while "looking for evidence of bribery and corruption".
He told the inquiry: "I don't hack phones normally. I have never done anything like that since and I had never done anything like that before.
"On that particular occasion, this minor incident did seem to me perfectly ethical."
Mr Leigh said he had never knowingly been in breach of criminal law.
"I'd like to think if the incident came to the attention of the DPP (Department of Public Prosecutions) and I was asked about it, the DPP would conclude there was no public interest in suing me and that's the backstop that the law has got."
Mr Leigh said the Guardian's culture was supposed to be ethical, candid and open-minded. He said he understood that tabloid culture was different. "There's a climate of 'anything goes'; there's a climate of almost delighting in roguery."Mr Leigh said the Guardian's culture was supposed to be ethical, candid and open-minded. He said he understood that tabloid culture was different. "There's a climate of 'anything goes'; there's a climate of almost delighting in roguery."
Mr Leigh said "the end doesn't always justify the means" in journalism. "It's case-by-case - it depends absolutely on the particular circumstances of a particular case," he said. "Public interest is the central point - I mean that's the compass really."
Asked where the boundaries of journalism lay, Mr Leigh said: "I don't - we don't - use private detectives. I don't - we don't - harass people, normally. I don't - we don't - intrude into people's sex lives, usually. We don't practice chequebook journalism as a rule."
But he said situations such as the Daily Telegraph's purchase of information on the MPs' expenses scandal tested such boundaries.
"I've often scratched my head about this and thought it's a good job that the person selling that didn't come to me," he said. But Mr Leigh said most people now agreed that the Telegraph was right to buy the information because it had been so clearly in the public interest.
Mr Leigh admitted that he committed subterfuge against Mark Thatcher, when he was trying to prove the former PM's son was employed by an arms company and knew a middleman called Jamal.
Mr Leigh said he telephoned Number 10 and asked to speak to Mr Thatcher. Mr Thatcher picked up the phone and cheerily answered, "Hi Jamal" - proving the connection.
Mr Leigh said the subterfuge was "minor, temporary and completely defensible".
'Head of ethics'
He went on: "The pressures that operate on the editor of the Guardian or the Financial Times are quite different, I suspect, to the pressures that operate on the Daily Mail or the News of the World."
"You have to make people fear the law," he said. He said most of the areas of concern raised at the inquiry were crimes and that the issue that had been circled around was that "the law is not enforced"."You have to make people fear the law," he said. He said most of the areas of concern raised at the inquiry were crimes and that the issue that had been circled around was that "the law is not enforced".
Mr Leigh wrote about phone hacking after former News of the World royal correspondent Clive Goodman had admitted illegally accessing the phones of royal aides. In his article Mr Leigh said he too had hacked into someone's phone while "looking for evidence of bribery and corruption". Warnings
Questioned on this by counsel for the inquiry, David Barr, Mr Leigh said: "Well, I don't hack phones - normally. I've have never done anything like that since and I had never done anything like that before. The inquiry also heard how Mr Nott, from Cwmbran, in Torfaen, realised how mobile phone voicemails could be accessed using a default Pin code after Vodafone told him how to access his own messages remotely.
"I'd like to think if the incident came to the attention of the DPP (Department of Public Prosecutions) and I was asked about it, the DPP would conclude there was no public interest in suing me and that's the backstop that the law has got." He said he asked Vodafone whether the default Pin system meant he could access anyone's voicemail, and was told, "Yes you can, but you're not supposed to."
'Fobbed off'
Mr Nott, from Cwmbran, in Torfaen, described how he complained to Vodafone after learning his voicemail could be accessed using a default Pin code.
He said he asked Vodafone whether the default Pin system meant he could access anyone's voicemail, after being told how to check his own remotely, and was told, "Yes you can, but you're not supposed to."
He told the inquiry he subsequently rang Vodafone on numerous occasions but "kept getting fobbed off all the time".He told the inquiry he subsequently rang Vodafone on numerous occasions but "kept getting fobbed off all the time".
He said he told the Daily Mirror about it, was told the newspaper had been ringing around testing his claims and that he was given the impression they would publish an article on it.He said he told the Daily Mirror about it, was told the newspaper had been ringing around testing his claims and that he was given the impression they would publish an article on it.
Mr Nott said that, after discovering they were not going to run the story, he became concerned that they would use the information to access phones themselves.Mr Nott said that, after discovering they were not going to run the story, he became concerned that they would use the information to access phones themselves.
"I then accused (reporter) Oonagh Blackman over the phone of possibly keeping that information to themselves for that purpose," Mr Nott told the inquiry. He said she in turn threatened him with legal action if he went public with the information he had shared with the newspaper."I then accused (reporter) Oonagh Blackman over the phone of possibly keeping that information to themselves for that purpose," Mr Nott told the inquiry. He said she in turn threatened him with legal action if he went public with the information he had shared with the newspaper.
Mr Nott said he contacted Scotland Yard and organisations including MI5 and the National Council of Civil Liberties about the security loophole.Mr Nott said he contacted Scotland Yard and organisations including MI5 and the National Council of Civil Liberties about the security loophole.
He said eventually he went to BBC Radio 5 live, who broadcast a short story in 1999.He said eventually he went to BBC Radio 5 live, who broadcast a short story in 1999.
Lord Justice Leveson's inquiry is looking at the "culture, practices and ethics of the media" and whether the self-regulation of the press works.Lord Justice Leveson's inquiry is looking at the "culture, practices and ethics of the media" and whether the self-regulation of the press works.