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Republican debate live: Trump and Bush spar as a booing crowd steals show Republican debate live: Trump v Bush with personal attacks on immigration
(35 minutes later)
3.22am GMT
03:22
Ad break Twitter roundup:
This debate is getting chippy. What it needs is the calm, steady hand of Jim Gilmore giving it direction. Sigh.
Ted Cruz has been using the anecdote about his father coming to the US with money in his underwear since college debate
Wasn't paying attention. Who mooned whom?
Wasn't paying attention. Who mooned whom?
I need a vine of Jeb's face when Trump said the moon thing stat.
3.20am GMT
03:20
James Pethokoukis
Let’s call the immigration questions the “let’s alienate all non-white” voters portion of the debate. It’s also the part off the debate where – if he were still in the race – Chris Christie would jump in with his “all these senators do is talk about arcane amendments” bit. (It is exactly what Jeb did!)
It was also another squandered opportunity for Trump to walk back his harsh immigration comments from last summer – but that’s not happening.
Oh, and does Trump really, really dislike Bush: it’s palpable in way that’s not evident when he talks about Cruz and Rubio.
The Kasich plan to legalize undocumented immigrants without granting citizenship is an interesting middle ground between “deport them all” and the path to citizenship usually derided by Republicans as “amnesty” that might get further exploration if the next president is an Republican – even if that president is not Kasich.
3.18am GMT
03:18
A question to Trump, about a promised tax on industries which move abroad, “where do you think you get the authority?”
“I would build consensus with congress,” promises Trump, Consensus-Builder-In-Chief. “So stay where you are, and build in the United States.”
3.17am GMT
03:17
Crucial Trump vs Jeb Bush “mooning” comment update:
Yes Jeb you did say it: “I could drop my pants. Moon the whole crowd. ...except the press guys would never notice." https://t.co/Ff7s5Umxmf
3.15am GMT
03:15
The debate so far, summed-up by our very own Ben Jacobs, on the scene in Greenville:
Bush: Screw Trump.Trump: Screw Jeb.Cruz: Screw Rubio.Rubio: Screw Cruz.Kasich: Can't we all just get along?Carson: Go to my website.
3.15am GMT
03:15
The Guardian is briefly unable to confirm whether or not Ben Carson is still on the stage.
Oh, there he is! He’s asked a question about prosecution of financial executives.
“First of all, please go to my website and read my immigration policy,” Carson says in answer, again.
“Because, it actually makes sense!”
3.15am GMT
03:15
Megan Carpentier
Jeb Bush just stated that Donald Trump is “weak”, because, in part, he callde Senator John McCain “weak”. Trump, of course, denied it.
Well, let the record reflect what Trump did say in July 2015:
He’s not a war hero ... He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured, OK? I hate to tell you. He’s a war hero because he was captured, OK? And I believe — perhaps he’s a war hero. But right now, he’s said some very bad things about a lot of people.
And, the week before those comments, he said this:
I’ve supported John McCain, but he’s very weak on immigration.
3.12am GMT
03:12
“I think we’re fixin’ to lose the election to Hillary Clinton if we don’t stop this,” says John Kasich, Voice Of Reason.
3.12am GMT
03:12
Trump is now claiming ownership of illegal immigration as a topic. “If I didn’t bring it up, we wouldn’t even be talking about it.”
Then he turns the Eye of Sauron on to Jeb. “The weakest person on this stage is Jeb Bush.”
“It’s weak to disparage women. It’s weak to denigrate the disabled,” Bush hits back.
Trump: “two days ago he said he would take his pants off and moon everybody.” Unconfirmed.
3.09am GMT
03:09
Looks like Kasich’s “jeez, oh man” is going to be the big takeaway from tonight’s debate.
Literally having the identical immigration conversation as earlier debates. Geeze oh man
3.09am GMT
03:09
Jeb Lund
Ted Cruz’s willingness to bite on all his peers’ lines and pass them off as his own is truly shameless.
The audience just booed him for his statements on amnesty, and he cribbed Trump’s line about his stance “obviously” being “unpopular with the donor class”. It’s a great line! It’s also really great if you thought of it and had the stones to have said it the first time (in the last debate) or the second time (in this debate).
Ted Cruz is the antithesis of Marco Rubio: he is remarkably absorbent.
That said, you don’t have to like Ted Cruz to admire his firing back at Rubio’s line about his not speaking Spanish by turning to him and speaking in Spanish. It shows how much of a lawyer Rubio isn’t: you don’t open a line of questioning if you don’t already know the answers, and he clearly didn’t know the answer.
It’s doubtful that either of them was ever going to garner a huge majority of the Latino vote, but that Rubio just gave Cruz a huge opportunity to humanize himself. Meanwhile, Rubio stood there, looking forward, smiling weakly, clearly incapable of response and trying put the machine back on message.
Updated
at 3.15am GMT
3.09am GMT
03:09
Rubio slams Cruz. Cruz talks about what the Florida senator’s plans were, as outlined on Univision; Rubio says “I don’t know how he knows what I said on Univision as he doesn’t speak Spanish.”
Cruz is going to need some ointment for that burn.
3.07am GMT
03:07
He may have read the audience wrong, however:
They're not booing, they're yelling "Cruuuuuuuz".
3.06am GMT
03:06
Boos for Ted Cruz saying that he stood against the Schumer amnesty plan - like Trump, the Texas senator hits at the audience, saying “clearly the donor class supported it.”
3.04am GMT
03:04
Rubio up next. He says that the only way to make progress is to “get illegal immigration under control.” But points out that the wall is not the only solution, because “40 percent of people here illegally enter legally on visas and then outstay them.
Interestingly, even Trump nods in agreement. The audience loves that answer too; they cheer loudly.
Seems like the screaming Rand Paul fans from past debates are now screaming for Rubio.
Updated
at 3.05am GMT
3.02am GMT
03:02
Now we move to immigration
Oh good.
Trump says that “I want to take care of everybody; but we need to take care of our people first.”
I. Will. Build. A. Wall.
3.02am GMT
03:02
James Pethokoukis
The moderators should really be hammering these candidates on the massive revenue losses from their tax plans. Even assuming strong economic feedback (ie, that it would spur massive economic growth), any of the proposed the tax cuts would put the federal government deeply in the red.
And, if the candidates would pay for these plans through “entitlement reform”, they’re really saying that they’re going to pay for huge tax cuts for business and the rich by cutting the growth of Medicare and Social Security benefits.
The Democratic ads write themselves.
This is an issue that Republican primary voters may not care about – though, the more money a tax plan loses, the less dough the government is able to spend! – but it could be a huge negative in the general election.
3.01am GMT
03:01
A good point; Cruz has escaped fire so far.
Almost an hour into the debate, and Iowa caucus winner Ted Cruz hasn't taken any hits yet from any of his opponents.
2.57am GMT
02:57
Jeb’s campaign is calling his spat with Trump over 9/11 a victory, it seems - though it may be premature.
Jeb campaign citing "The Knockout in Greenville" in emails now
2.57am GMT
02:57
James Pethokoukis
On taxes, let’s actually be clear: Ted Cruz has proposed a value-added tax, or VAT. He can call it a “business flat tax” but it is a VAT. Whatever its pluses and minus, it allows him to propose a very low income tax with the rest of revenue-generating bits hidden on the business side. That’s rather clever, really.
Rubio’s tax plan is in sync with past successful Republican tax plans in that it would improve incentives to invest while also directing immediate tax relief to taxpayers; that was both the Reagan and Bush II plans. But it is really more of a general election plan in that it can be sold as something more than “cut taxes for the rich and all be well”.
Of course, all the Republican tax plans are big revenue losers for the federal, which Democrats will certainly attack in a general election.
2.57am GMT
02:57
Carson’s answer is cut off by commerce.
“Dr Carson, I’m sorry, we have to go to commercial. The free market wants what it wants.”
Moderator: Mr. Carson, do you wanna weigh in on taxation, Medicare or Social Security?Carson: Well, let me just say m—[commercial break]
Updated
at 2.59am GMT
2.56am GMT
02:56
Ben Carson - who is still on the stage - is asked a question! In answer, he tells people to check his website for details on his tax plan, which is always a crowd-pleasing strategy.
2.54am GMT
02:54
Kasich makes the fiscal case for expanding Medicaid. Money saved by treating mentally ill, drug addicts etc.
Jeb says he admires Kasich’s moves; but then pivots to saying that he wants to repeal Obamacare.
Kasich says that Jeb knows that he’s no pro-Obamacare. But then he points to Reagan as the basis for getting “people on their feet.”
This is a fight between the two of them; but it’s hard to tell because they’re being much more polite, and they are both trying for political reasons to wriggle out of supporting not putting the mentally ill in prison, which is a weird political belief to be ashamed of.
2.51am GMT
02:51
Kasich gets a key question, about his support of Medicare expansion and how it fits in with conservative ambitions.
“When we expand medicaid and we treat the mentally ill, then they don’t live under a bridge or in a prison where they cost $22,500 per year,” he says, in an answer that wouldn’t be out of place in the Democratic debate the other day. “Guess what else: they get their lives back.”
2.50am GMT
02:50
James Pethokoukis
Medicare and Social Security reform has been a foundational Republican issue for decades, and yet Trump completely rejects it.
His solution to program funding problems is, basically, more economic growth – even though Social Security benefits actually rise with economic growth. The math doesn’t work.
Trump’s position shows how the Republican party is moving away from entitlement reform now that it depends more and more on older voters. Social Security is now concerned one part of Americans’ “earned benefits” – as opposed to the “welfare” benefits of Obamcare, Medicaid and various income supports which, you know, go to Democratic voters.
2.49am GMT2.49am GMT
02:4902:49
Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is speaking at a rally in Denver, Colorado:Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is speaking at a rally in Denver, Colorado:
HRC starts her speech in Denver with: "What a performance! Of course, I'm talking about Beyonce but the Broncos did great too"HRC starts her speech in Denver with: "What a performance! Of course, I'm talking about Beyonce but the Broncos did great too"
2.48am GMT2.48am GMT
02:4802:48
.@MarcoRubio: George W. Bush Kept Us Safe https://t.co/VPZTYuFwvt.@MarcoRubio: George W. Bush Kept Us Safe https://t.co/VPZTYuFwvt
2.47am GMT2.47am GMT
02:4702:47
It’s good at this point to remember just how politically incredible this situation is:It’s good at this point to remember just how politically incredible this situation is:
The GOP frontrunner is pledging to defend Social Security, minutes after calling Iraq a "big, fat mistake."The GOP frontrunner is pledging to defend Social Security, minutes after calling Iraq a "big, fat mistake."
2.46am GMT2.46am GMT
02:4602:46
Trump: I'm gonna fix Social Security.Moderator: OK, but, like, how are you gonna do that?Trump: Let me tell you: It'll be tremendous.Trump: I'm gonna fix Social Security.Moderator: OK, but, like, how are you gonna do that?Trump: Let me tell you: It'll be tremendous.
Ted Cruz up next. Says the economy isn’t going to be solved with “magic pixie dust,” which I guess loses him the magic pixie vote.Ted Cruz up next. Says the economy isn’t going to be solved with “magic pixie dust,” which I guess loses him the magic pixie vote.
2.45am GMT
02:45
James Pethokoukis
Don’t kid yourselves: there remains a deep pool of goodwill toward George W Bush within the Republican Party. He made an extraordinary emotional connection after 9-11.
The harsh Trump critique will, I am sure, strike many Republicans as unnecessarily venomous and something they would more likely expect to hear from Bernie Sanders or film-maker Michael Moore. That is why many see Trump as having a ceiling within these primaries.
2.44am GMT
02:44
Jeb Lund
Three times (so far) tonight the audience has lustfully booed the facts:
These three statements were made by Donald Trump, and he might as well have doused the stage in kerosene and set it ablaze.
“Exciting” in politics is an extremely low bar to clear; the slightest side-eye is usually enough to send politicos and political journalists aflutter and especially a-Twitter.
This was far more than that. This was a man burning down a party from the inside.
Updated
at 2.45am GMT
2.44am GMT
02:44
And, we’re back: the next topic is “money”. Fittingly, the first question goes to - yup, you guessed it.
“Mr Trump: you have made a lot of promises, and you’re the only candidate who has said he will not touch entitlement.” They say that would cost “12-15 trillion dollars,” and ask if he’s proposing more than he can deliver.
Trump says “I’m going to save social security. I’m going to bring jobs back from China. I’m going to bring jobs back from Mexico. I’m going to make our economy strong again.”
2.42am GMT
02:42
Ad break Twitter roundup:
Trump is right. The World Trade Center came down when Bush was in office. That's a strange definition of "kept us safe."
Who had "GOP candidates desperately trying to stop frontrunner who blames George W. Bush for 9/11" in their betting pool last year
Rubio rushing to Jeb's defense. Didn't see that one coming.
This debate feels....very weird. Like a WWE match mashed up with a blog comments section.
2.38am GMT
02:38
Trump, again, hits out at the idea that George W. Bush ‘kept us safe’: “the World Trade Center came down under George Bush’s reign” says that he “lost hundreds of friends.”
Jeb rescinds the invitation to the rally in Charleston with his brother, live on stage.
We take you now to live footage of the #GOPDebate: https://t.co/NUWzk0MCph
2.36am GMT
02:36
Jeb: “my mother was the strongest person I know”
Trump: “maybe she should be running”
Did you catch Trump saying Barbara Bush should be the one running for president? #GOPDebate
2.35am GMT
02:35
“This is just crazy. Jeez, oh man,” says Kasich.
2.34am GMT
02:34
“I think its my turn, isn’t it,” says Jeb.
“I’m sick and tired of Barack Obama blaming my brother,” Jeb says. “I could care less about the insults Donald Trump gives to me ... but I’m sick and tired of him going after my family.” He goes back to his old line about his brother “keeping us safe.”
“The world trade center came down when your brother was president,” Trump shoots back.
Do your thug thing, @JebBush . You got this, fam.
2.32am GMT
02:32
“As a businessman, I get along with anybody,” Trump says. The audience is shouting; febrile. “Obviously the war in Iraq was a big fat mistake,” he continues. “It took Jeb Bush five days before his people told him what to say, and he ultimately said it was a mistake.”
2.32am GMT
02:32
James Pethokoukis
With Rand Paul out the race, Trump is now really the loudest voice for a different kind of Republican foreign policy and a less interventionist one – well, less interventionist after bombing the hell out of Isis. He is the only one on the stage against the Iraq War, calling it a “big fat mistake”.
But then he went further, saying that the Bush administration lied the country into war. The former president is supposedly quite popular into South Carolina; we’ll see how Trump’s full-throated criticism – including noting that the World Trade Center was attacked on George W Bush’s watch, which earned him boos in the room – plays.
Updated
at 2.37am GMT
2.31am GMT
02:31
2.30am GMT
02:30
Trump gets booed. And here we go with Trump attacking the audience again. Probably boosts his SC #s to 40 percent.
2.30am GMT
02:30
Quick cut to Lindsey Graham in the audience because of course, of course.
2.29am GMT
02:29
“And now to Ted Cruz, who is also running for president,” says Dickerson.
Cruz says that “when it comes to ISIS, you’ve got to have a focussed objective.” He’s avoiding getting into the mudslinging that just broke out between Bush and Trump
2.28am GMT
02:28
More boos from the audience, as Trump slams Lindsey Graham. Bush responds: “the basic fact is, Vladimir Putin is not going to be an ally of the United States.”
“We’re supporting troops that we don’t even know who they are,” Trump shouts. The audience boos again. “This is from a guy who gets his foreign policy from the shows,” Jeb hits back. The audience cheers.
2.27am GMT
02:27
James Pethokoukis
From Guardian US contributor and American Enterprise Institute columnist James Pethokoukis:
So no surprise, the lead-off question was about the passing of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Each candidate’s response sort of reflected the essence of their candidacies. Trump was combative – “Delay, delay, delay” – but, you have to give him points for actually naming a couple of potential conservative judicial picks.
Kasich was sunny, suggesting this was an opportunity for Obama to nominate a unifying choice. Rubio gave a concise, smooth answer (not in any way robotic!). Jeb tried to be the adult in the room.
As for Cruz, it was an issue right in his wheelhouse, and not just because of his legal background. It allowed him to remind Republican voters that he is a “fighter” since, as president, he would have to fight to get his nominee through the US Senate.
2.26am GMT
02:26
Trump goes after Jeb!
“Jeb is so wrong ... that’s Jeb’s special interests and lobbyists talking,” he says, of Jeb’s plan to remove the sequester just now. The audience isn’t loving this internecine attack - more boos.
2.24am GMT
02:24
Jeb Lund
From Guardian US columnist Jeb Lund:
It took two replies for the axis of bizarro world to keep whirring askew of all physics, as Donald Trump delivered a reasonable answer on nominating a justice to the US supreme court to replace Antonin Scalia, and John Kasich said something dumb.
In short, Trump recognized that it’s the right of the president to nominate justices, irrespective of the year, because he would like the privilege of doing so if he were the president in a lame-duck year. It’s, he said, the obligation of the Republican senate to obstruct Barack Obama as he exercises his obligations under the constitution. That’s ... actually true, and fairly reasonable
John Kasich, on the other hand, felt that Barack Obama shouldn’t nominate anyone, because the American people should be consulted, via an election and the one in 2012 didn’t count.
Also, something something about civility.
Meanwhile, Ben Carson feltthat we should, uh, “look into that” about how, ahhh, the average lifespan of human beings has changed since the era of the founders, so, ahhh, these appointments last much longer, but, uh, also that we should do something about civility, because we aren’t as civil as we used to be.
Jeb Bush’s answer was completely sensible and predictable for his base, but I’m sure what everybody noticed was that he cited Article 2 of the US constitution – establishing his conservative bona fides – and spoke forcefully, as if he woke up a few weeks ago and looked at the clock and realized he had to appear credible as a candidate.
2.24am GMT
02:24
Back to Kasich, with a question about Russia. “You’ve said you want to punch them in the nose - what does that mean?”
“We need to make it clear what we expect,” the Ohio governor answers. “We will arm the Ukraine. ... Any attack on [a NATO country] is an attack on us.”
The fact of the matter is, the world is desperate for leadership.
2.22am GMT
02:22
Ben Carson is asked if his lack of political experience is a liability. He returns to the answer to his first question, then thanks the moderators for including him in the debate. “Two questions already, this is great,” he says.