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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/jun/01/eu-debate-the-most-abusive-political-campaign-ever-in-britain-live
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| EU debate: the most abusive political campaign ever in Britain? – live | EU debate: the most abusive political campaign ever in Britain? – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.37pm BST | |
| 13:37 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| Strong points backing Corbyn here ... anyone want to respond to this below the line? | |
| Jeremy Corbyn is the politician who has most singularly let himself down most | |
| In that case you have had a very limited exposure to the campaign. | |
| We've had Cameron suggesting that war could break out, that a severe economic recession will inevitably follow and on the other side a lot of ugly dog-whistle politics carefully coded as "concern" about immigration. The outers have no shame in trumpeting the £3350m a week cost of the EU although it's been shot down numerous times and have blatantly lied that the EU would over-rule the veto and allow Turkey to join the EU by 2020. | |
| Corbyn has made a high-profile speech backing the case for Remain, but perhaps he remembers the damage that resulted in Labour backing the "Better Together" campaign in Scotland, that left Labour with one MP in what had traditionally been a Labour stronghold. Also it's become clear that this referendum has become a Tory leadership contest with the likelihood of the Tory party splitting and at the very least exposing a serious rift in the Tory party. Why do the same with his own party? | |
| Anyway Corbyn's pro-EU contribution: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/14/jeremy-corbyn-to-urge-warts-and-all-backing-of-eu | |
| Perhaps people are getting tired of cheap rhetoric, posturing and headline grabbing? | |
| The problem with the whole debate is this - the economic case for remaining is undeniable, and the outers have no answer other than vague stuff about being like Canada, Norway, HK, Albania etc. So they know it's pointless steering the debate that way. The area where they score though is on immigration and that concern seems to register highly with people so unsurprisingly they keep playing their trump card. So we have two sides of the debate where there's little or no middle ground and to make things worse the main protagonists are very skilled in playing the modern media game of soundbites as policy. That has become an increasing problem with modern politics - if you don't grab the headline you risk losing the debate. Personally while I have reservations about Corbyn being able to win votes from outside his core left of centre voters at least he tries to explain his stand and reasoning. No wonder the media hate him, he won't play the say something outrageous game that sells newspapers. | |
| 1.32pm BST | |
| 13:32 | |
| Hannah Jane Parkinson | |
| Whither the “kinder” politics we were promised just months ago? Corbyn initiated this supposed new change of direction, but Cameron was also said to have “welcomed the more civilised” exchange during the Labour leader’s first bash at PMQs. Cut to the present EU referendum debate and the internecine ranting of both sides (and, in terms of party allegiance, the same side) has reached a nadir. | |
| The polls pull in and out with the tide of Dover, but this might be less a fluctuation of inaccurate methodology and dodgy results (cough, 2015 general election, cough) and more a genuine reflection of changing minds. | |
| One thing is clear: this is a franchise which, as with the Scottish referendum, seems to be engaging the people. Which, even with the highest turnout in the last election since Blair’s 1997 new dawn, can’t often be said. Or at least we’re always being told (especially the young) to be more politically active. It is a shame that, rather than providing facts and measured arguments, the campaigns have focused on juvenile potshots and, in the case of buses and bananas, blatant mistruths. | |
| As for the nasty aspect of the campaign in comparison to others: as colleagues below have noted, as well as the enthusiasm and positivity of the Scottish referendum, there was also abuse fired across ethernet connections from both factions. I prayed for the Twitter mentions of my colleagues covering the vote. More recently, the London mayoral campaign wasn’t what one would call amicable. | |
| I just hope people – and we will, because we’re not stupid – research and vote after consideration of the facts (although the Brexit camp is slightly hamstrung because it is not too sure what a post-EU UK would look like – and at least Ukip’s Suzanne Evans admitted as much). | |
| Vox pops of Boris Johnson blustering Thames-side about directives on balloons, hair like a helicopter landing in a haystack, are just a distraction. Farage, waving a passport around and straining for coverage – think cat’s paw clawing around the edge of a door – is just a distraction. Liam Fox is, well, a distraction, (also someone who shouldn’t still have a political career after giving his crooked mate a job at the heart of British defence, but whatever). Think about – from all angles – the issues that matter in regards to the future of the UK: trade, movement of people, legislation. Or, if you are still stuck, I am sure this analysis will help. You are welcome. | |
| 1.26pm BST | |
| 13:26 | |
| James Walsh | |
| We felt our debate needed an entirely unscientific poll. Judging by what’s been written so far, these are the politicians who haven’t exactly impressed you with their tone during the EU referendum campaign. But who has been the rudest? | |
| An unscientific poll for our EU debate: which politician has been the rudest? https://t.co/LTFdzRwYnB | |
| Boris Johnson has an early lead, with 50% at the time of writing. | |
| 1.23pm BST | |
| 13:23 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| News just in – Donald Trump has confirmed he is to visit the UK later this month (the day after the UK’s referendum) to attend the official reopening of his hotel and golf resort in Scotland. | |
| Related: Donald Trump to visit UK on day of EU referendum result | |
| 1.21pm BST | |
| 13:21 | |
| Laura Oliver | |
| Navigating these political campaigns is a voter’s nightmare. The deluge of “facts” and “counter facts” being issued by both sides of the debate is not unique to the referendum – it is reminiscent of general election campaigns, of course. In this instance, however, we are being treated to examples of out-and-out misinformation and a level of noise that is making it hard to hear the voices of those who will be most affected by the decision. | |
| The question of whether the British public is apathetic towards Europe or whether this disengagement is the result of a communications and image problem between Brussels and the wider electorate has long been debated. This time around, the politicians campaigning on either side are falling into that trap again – swinging between statements that are aimed very much at the individual voter’s interests (house prices, for example) to issues so broad and complex that they will only obfuscate the real issue if not properly handled. | |
| As the electorate, we need honest, fact-based assessments of how different communities and people within Britain and Europe will fare. Where are the voices from lower income families, from younger voters in or out of education and work? Where are the undecided voters airing their views on what they need to know? Who is answering their questions, informing them through their campaigns? The abuse of facts discussed by Andrew Sparrow goes hand-in-hand with an abuse of this relationship with the public. | |
| 1.15pm BST | |
| 13:15 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| This comment looking at immigration and the language of the campaign raises some good points. Let us know what you think below the line. | |
| As an expat living in the UK, I also welcomed the referendum at first as I believed the EU has changed a lot and people should be consulted on whether they feel it is moving in the direction they want. | |
| But frankly I have started to become very worried about the language being used in the referendum campaign, particularly now that immigration has become the main focus. There seems to be no filter anymore and blatant racism is close to becoming the mainstream way of describing foreigners. You almost expect this by certain parts of the media but you also expect high ranking politicians to not sink to the same level. Watching what is crawling out from under the rocks now is scary. | |
| If there is a vote to leave the EU I pretty much expect the newspaper headlines to read: "The British people have spoken - now get them out!". From there it is just going to get worse. | |
| 1.14pm BST | |
| 13:14 | |
| James Walsh | |
| Another good comment on Corbyn’s Remain campaigning, particularly in the context of John McDonnell’s criticism of Sadiq Khan sharing a platform with the prime minister. | |
| Corbyn is not an enthusiastic Remainer we all know that. He has seen what happened to Labour after the Scottish referendum and does not want to be seen to be helping him out. However he is really not doing himself or Labour any favours by sitting on his hands. He needs to put the case for a Progressive EU. | |
| Having said all that the media has focused on the Tory Civil War which makes getting air time very difficult for anyone else. | |
| Related: John McDonnell: sharing EU platform with Tories discredits Labour | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.15pm BST | |
| 1.08pm BST | |
| 13:08 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| An interesting response on Corbyn. People criticise his lack of involvement, but maybe it’s better than getting involved for all the wrong reasons and playing political games. What does everyone think? | |
| Jeremy Corbyn is the politician who has most singularly let himself down most | |
| How? Because he used Obama's African heritage against him? Because he accused a mayoral candidate of extremism? Because he is standing on a platform of fear? | |
| Or because he is connecting with the electorate by showing that we can have nuanced and authentic reactions to complex issues? Because he is standing on a platform of hope that we can build a better EU? | |
| What the hell are you talking about? | |
| 1.01pm BST | 1.01pm BST |
| 13:01 | 13:01 |
| Referendums bring out the divisive worst in us all – leaving a bad, lingering smell | Referendums bring out the divisive worst in us all – leaving a bad, lingering smell |
| Michael White | Michael White |
| Like all but the most fanatical partisans in the Brexit debate (yes, there are also still some on the Remain side), I read and listen to it all with only half an ear most of the time. Referendums are not meant to be a pub brawl or a multiple choice question which is how they are usually treated. It’s another reason why they’re such a bad idea. | Like all but the most fanatical partisans in the Brexit debate (yes, there are also still some on the Remain side), I read and listen to it all with only half an ear most of the time. Referendums are not meant to be a pub brawl or a multiple choice question which is how they are usually treated. It’s another reason why they’re such a bad idea. |
| So Margaret Thatcher would never have held one and she didn’t. They bring out the divisive worst in us and will leave a bad, lingering smell like a house fire. Just look at Scotland’s independence referendum in 2014. Anyone who says it was more civilized than 23 June version obviously wasn’t there. | So Margaret Thatcher would never have held one and she didn’t. They bring out the divisive worst in us and will leave a bad, lingering smell like a house fire. Just look at Scotland’s independence referendum in 2014. Anyone who says it was more civilized than 23 June version obviously wasn’t there. |
| But as in Scotland so in wider Britain, some politicians can rise above it. On Radio 4 I recently heard Vince Cable and Gisella Stuart thrashing out an issue on which both Lib Dem pro-EU man and Labour Brexit woman have long-held convictions. They managed to behave decently towards each other. It can be done. | But as in Scotland so in wider Britain, some politicians can rise above it. On Radio 4 I recently heard Vince Cable and Gisella Stuart thrashing out an issue on which both Lib Dem pro-EU man and Labour Brexit woman have long-held convictions. They managed to behave decently towards each other. It can be done. |
| Compare that with the testosterone fuelled bravado coming from the posh boys, Dave, Boris and George, all too easily copied by members of their gangs, the likes of Chris Grayling and John Redwood, the Vulcan’s Vulcan. Norman Tebbit was born with a witty sneer on his lips, but what does weighty ex chancellor, Nigel Lawson, think he’s up to? Not trying to compete with his domestic goddess of a daughter, I hope. Even Michael Gove, a naturally courteous man, has said some rude and silly things. | Compare that with the testosterone fuelled bravado coming from the posh boys, Dave, Boris and George, all too easily copied by members of their gangs, the likes of Chris Grayling and John Redwood, the Vulcan’s Vulcan. Norman Tebbit was born with a witty sneer on his lips, but what does weighty ex chancellor, Nigel Lawson, think he’s up to? Not trying to compete with his domestic goddess of a daughter, I hope. Even Michael Gove, a naturally courteous man, has said some rude and silly things. |
| The Labour leadership’s behaviour in the contest? Is Jeremy Corbyn involved ? Like many voters I had no idea. A classic left Euro-sceptic, the best Corbyn can manage is to do little positive harm. If Britain votes Brexit it won’t do him any good. | The Labour leadership’s behaviour in the contest? Is Jeremy Corbyn involved ? Like many voters I had no idea. A classic left Euro-sceptic, the best Corbyn can manage is to do little positive harm. If Britain votes Brexit it won’t do him any good. |
| Who has behaved conspicuously badly? Toxic Nigel Farage would if they let him, but the plan seems to be to lock him in the coal shed as much as possible. That leaves Boris Johnson, Boris Trump as I have taken to calling him (“ Boris is a nicer chap, but their campaigns are the same,” says Ken Clarke), as the winner: an outrageous and shallow abuse of his talents, as he well knows. | Who has behaved conspicuously badly? Toxic Nigel Farage would if they let him, but the plan seems to be to lock him in the coal shed as much as possible. That leaves Boris Johnson, Boris Trump as I have taken to calling him (“ Boris is a nicer chap, but their campaigns are the same,” says Ken Clarke), as the winner: an outrageous and shallow abuse of his talents, as he well knows. |
| But Priti Patel, the junior employment minister whom Brexit newspapers like to call a “cabinet member” (she’s not), has said harsh things that won’t be forgotten either. Ambition does funny things to people. Just look at Tony Benn who dreamed up the 1975 EU referendum and thought he’d win. It didn’t solve anything. For the losers it rarely does, they keep trying until they win or get hammered. | But Priti Patel, the junior employment minister whom Brexit newspapers like to call a “cabinet member” (she’s not), has said harsh things that won’t be forgotten either. Ambition does funny things to people. Just look at Tony Benn who dreamed up the 1975 EU referendum and thought he’d win. It didn’t solve anything. For the losers it rarely does, they keep trying until they win or get hammered. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.02pm BST | at 1.02pm BST |
| 12.55pm BST | 12.55pm BST |
| 12:55 | 12:55 |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| Boris Johnson is a satirist’s dream, so it’s a shame we’re not living in a particularly golden age for satire, the Guardian’s Steve Bell notwithstanding. | Boris Johnson is a satirist’s dream, so it’s a shame we’re not living in a particularly golden age for satire, the Guardian’s Steve Bell notwithstanding. |
| Leave campaigners were delighted when Johnson tied his colours to their mask, but his interventions have not been without controversy, whether it’s been making strange remarks about President Obama’s ancestry or comparing the EU to Hitler. | Leave campaigners were delighted when Johnson tied his colours to their mask, but his interventions have not been without controversy, whether it’s been making strange remarks about President Obama’s ancestry or comparing the EU to Hitler. |
| Long-time Boris watcher Adam Bienkov notes that Johnson has a history of comparing his opponents to murderous tyrants, and the former mayor often resorted to using mental health terms as insuts during mayor’s questions. He’s not lost the habit, responding to a Cameron speech on the security implications of Brexit by saying, “I think all this talk of world war three and bubonic plague is demented, frankly.” | Long-time Boris watcher Adam Bienkov notes that Johnson has a history of comparing his opponents to murderous tyrants, and the former mayor often resorted to using mental health terms as insuts during mayor’s questions. He’s not lost the habit, responding to a Cameron speech on the security implications of Brexit by saying, “I think all this talk of world war three and bubonic plague is demented, frankly.” |
| Ken Clarke recently compared Johnson to the similarly coiffured Donald Trump. Our own Jonathan Freedland has called him a “post-truth” politician. | Ken Clarke recently compared Johnson to the similarly coiffured Donald Trump. Our own Jonathan Freedland has called him a “post-truth” politician. |
| If Britain votes Leave, he could very well be the next prime minister. | If Britain votes Leave, he could very well be the next prime minister. |
| Related: Steve Bell's If ... on trying to control Boris Johnson | Related: Steve Bell's If ... on trying to control Boris Johnson |
| There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Boris Johnson has been by far the most toxic of all the leading politicians on both sides of the divide. | There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Boris Johnson has been by far the most toxic of all the leading politicians on both sides of the divide. |
| His offensive and borderline racist observations about Obama, Germany, Turkey and its people and more have ensured that the debate has turned very ugly indeed. His contribution amounts to a litany of deliberately divisive and damaging comments on immigration and immigrants that will have major repercussions for racial and social harmony in Britain, possibly for years to come. | His offensive and borderline racist observations about Obama, Germany, Turkey and its people and more have ensured that the debate has turned very ugly indeed. His contribution amounts to a litany of deliberately divisive and damaging comments on immigration and immigrants that will have major repercussions for racial and social harmony in Britain, possibly for years to come. |
| Many of the Brexiters I have had conversations with, have been articulate with their arguments. To the point where I can agree on some issues (democracy within the EU hierarchy, for example) | Many of the Brexiters I have had conversations with, have been articulate with their arguments. To the point where I can agree on some issues (democracy within the EU hierarchy, for example) |
| However, when you speak with the majority of Brexiters, their arguments very quickly descend into name calling as soon as you refute any of their assertions. Why is this so? In my opinion, it's because they see this happening from from their "leaders" on a daily basis. Again, imo, Boris has been terrible for this kind of childish behaviour. With the others not far behind. | However, when you speak with the majority of Brexiters, their arguments very quickly descend into name calling as soon as you refute any of their assertions. Why is this so? In my opinion, it's because they see this happening from from their "leaders" on a daily basis. Again, imo, Boris has been terrible for this kind of childish behaviour. With the others not far behind. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.04pm BST | at 1.04pm BST |