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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out-live-debate

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Eu referendum: are you in or out? – live debate Eu referendum: are you in or out? – live debate
(35 minutes later)
11.01am BST
11:01
To leave would be an act of extraordinary self-sabotage
Rafael Behr
There are reasons to be frustrated with the way the EU works but they don’t justify quitting the project. There is no scenario, no crisis in Europe where it is feasible to imagine a British prime minister wishing himself excluded from the one available forum in which nearly every other continental leader is gathered to deal with the problem. To volunteer for that exclusion would be an act of extraordinary national self-sabotage. But it would also be a kind of strategic vandalism, emboldening the forces of nationalism and demagoguery across the world who would like nothing more than to see the EU fail. And that was all true before a campaign of breathtaking cynical mendacity by the Brexit camp, wilfully stirring up resentment, suspicion and xenophobia while offering no credible remedy to the problems they gleefully exploit. To avoid the empowerment of that tendency in British politics is reason enough to vote remain. But I’ll be supporting the UK’s EU membership not just to thwart the axis of Farage-Johnson-Gove but because I believe in the principle of peaceful trade and diplomatic collaboration among democratic nations on a continent that has for most of recorded history, been marked by war. The EU is a force for good in the world. It was not said often enough before this referendum; it has not been said often enough in the campaign.
10.53am BST
10:53
Sarah Marsh
Just updated the live blog with two quite contrasting views (below) on this question. So, have you made up your mind yet? Join us today from 12pm-2pm to discuss your stance and follow the blog now as we share more opinions from different writers.
10.53am BST
10:53
There is no good possible outcome
Martin Williams
Whatever the result, leftwingers should be gloomy. We have allowed the right to hijack this referendum and set the terms – on both sides of the debate. There is no good possible outcome.
Despite the impression given by sneering faux-liberals, the EU embodies everything the left normally claims to be against. There is nothing progressive about an anti-democratic institution led by a crazed free-market capitalist who preaches austerity. On this issue, unlike any other, many supposed lefties seem happy to share a hymnbook with banks and big business; cheering the EU’s undemocratic, exploitative system with macroeconomic excuses. How depressing that praising this monstrous beast could be considered the “progressive” argument.
Yet fear of the alternative is quite rational. If we leave, it will be a different kind of victory for rightwingers. We will hand the Tories a free pass to further tear up the country, without even the shackles of Europe to hold them back. It will be hell on earth. So there are two questions for the left: which flavour of rightwinger scares you most? And would you prefer your austerity to be imposed by a European technocracy, or by your very own elected asset-strippers?
10.51am BST
10:51
Mona Chalabi
I was a benefit tourist once. When I was 21, I had dragged myself through two miserable years of my undergraduate degree in Scotland and wasn’t sure if I could make it through the two years that loomed ahead of me. Insomnia would strangle me at night as I’d relentlessly tossed and turned over my options – drop out (the lost money, the shame, the effect on my career) or stay (and risk my mental health).
Then one afternoon, a lecturer told a room full of sleepy students about the Erasmus programme and I found out there was another option. As a student in an EU member state, I could apply to study abroad in another EU member state. If that weren’t already a miracle wrapped in gold swaddled in silk, I found out that the European university would cover most of my tuition fees and the country’s government would give me a monthly allowance to contribute towards my living expenses.
I applied, was accepted and moved to France. Like many of the migrants who are the subjects of tabloid wrath today, I could barely manage a sentence of the language when I first arrived – the French government didn’t demand that of me. The government also didn’t demand that I worked, bloody good thing too since I was barely making anything from my part-time job. It seemed all I was required to do was my best – my best to learn, my best to contribute to the society around me and my best to accept its limitations (you’d be hard pushed to find a migrant that would criticise their new home as much as those who were born there even though both see the flaws).
One year turned into three. As I learned how to string together French words, I found a new voice for myself, new friends and a new home that felt surprisingly, well, homely. As a typically self-centred Londoner, when I moved to Edinburgh I had been surprised to find out just how different other parts of the UK could be. EU member states are also different from one another, but being a citizen of something bigger gave me so many more places I could fit in. I will always be British, but it’s also possible to be from east London and feel more at home in the north of Paris than in Skegness.
I’m not the only benefit tourist. In the 2013-14 academic year, 272,497 students went to another European country to study or train. But I’m disappointed that only 15,610 of them came from the UK. Part of the reason why we’re so ready to see the costs of membership to the EU is that we haven’t made full use of the benefits of that membership.
10.33am BST10.33am BST
10:3310:33
Welcome to our debateWelcome to our debate
Sarah MarshSarah Marsh
Have you made up your mind yet? If not, then now’s the time to decide as there’s just one day left before Britain goes to the polls.Have you made up your mind yet? If not, then now’s the time to decide as there’s just one day left before Britain goes to the polls.
The in camp, which includes prime minister David Cameron and London’s mayor Sadiq Khan, have made their cases. Those keen for us to stay cite economic and cultural arguments, among other things.The in camp, which includes prime minister David Cameron and London’s mayor Sadiq Khan, have made their cases. Those keen for us to stay cite economic and cultural arguments, among other things.
Cameron, in particular, has hammered home that Britain is the hub for several industries in Europe which would be economically affected by an out vote. “I think there would be less opportunity, there would be less growth and excitement, less fizz about Britain’s creative and entrepreneurial place in the world,” he said yesterday.Cameron, in particular, has hammered home that Britain is the hub for several industries in Europe which would be economically affected by an out vote. “I think there would be less opportunity, there would be less growth and excitement, less fizz about Britain’s creative and entrepreneurial place in the world,” he said yesterday.
He added that Brexit could reverse progress on equality. “There are still opportunities that are blocked, and glass ceilings we need to smash through, but I think it would be a step back from that because we would be reducing our opportunities.”He added that Brexit could reverse progress on equality. “There are still opportunities that are blocked, and glass ceilings we need to smash through, but I think it would be a step back from that because we would be reducing our opportunities.”
On the other side, those in the out camp – including former London mayor Boris Johnson and (perhaps alarmingly) US Republican nominee Donald Trump – have talked about democracy and sovereignty. Those in favour of leaving claim that Britain needs to make choices about its own future without being held back by bureaucrats in Brussels.On the other side, those in the out camp – including former London mayor Boris Johnson and (perhaps alarmingly) US Republican nominee Donald Trump – have talked about democracy and sovereignty. Those in favour of leaving claim that Britain needs to make choices about its own future without being held back by bureaucrats in Brussels.
Immigration has also been central for Leave campaigners, with Ukip’s leader Nigel Farage and Conservative MP for Surrey Heath, Michael Gove, arguing that Britain must take back control of its borders. The message here was that Cameron could not be trusted on immigration, with the Ukip leader posing in front of a controversial poster warning of the supposed implications of a Remain vote.Immigration has also been central for Leave campaigners, with Ukip’s leader Nigel Farage and Conservative MP for Surrey Heath, Michael Gove, arguing that Britain must take back control of its borders. The message here was that Cameron could not be trusted on immigration, with the Ukip leader posing in front of a controversial poster warning of the supposed implications of a Remain vote.
Farage said: “The European Union is a disastrous, failed project and the poster reflected that.Farage said: “The European Union is a disastrous, failed project and the poster reflected that.
“One of the biggest moments of this referendum campaign has been the revelation from the prime minister’s former right-hand man that David Cameron knew years ago that his tens of thousands net migration pledge was impossible inside the EU, yet refuses to admit it.”“One of the biggest moments of this referendum campaign has been the revelation from the prime minister’s former right-hand man that David Cameron knew years ago that his tens of thousands net migration pledge was impossible inside the EU, yet refuses to admit it.”
So, have you made up your mind yet? Join us today from 12pm-2pm to discuss your stance. Tell us where you stand and why.So, have you made up your mind yet? Join us today from 12pm-2pm to discuss your stance. Tell us where you stand and why.
You can also tell us about how your economic situation affects this. How would a Brexit personally affect you and your finances? Is this a major factor in your final decision? You can tell us about this anonymously via our form.You can also tell us about how your economic situation affects this. How would a Brexit personally affect you and your finances? Is this a major factor in your final decision? You can tell us about this anonymously via our form.
UpdatedUpdated
at 10.38am BSTat 10.38am BST