This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out-live-debate
The article has changed 9 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 4 | Version 5 |
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| EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate | EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.37pm BST | |
| 13:37 | |
| How much democracy do we even have in Britain? | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| Would like to highlight this comment, which challenges those who say the EU is undemocratic. What about the House of Lords? How democratic is Britain anyway? | |
| The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy. | |
| We don't vote for our Prime Minister (they are conventionally the leader of the party with most seats - no one but the PMs constituents had any say in that). Nor do we vote for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home secretary, minister of defense etc etc etc. Nor for that matter do we vote for who the UK US ambassador will be or indeed any other. | |
| We have representative democracy - because many wise heads centuries ago worked out the problem with vox populi as a method of governance. | |
| The whole democratic deficit argument is hogwash. | |
| Our elected representatives make specific appointments | |
| 1.36pm BST | |
| 13:36 | |
| 'I’m dreading the result whatever it is' | |
| James Walsh | |
| A reader in St Albans echoes a view we’ve heard consistently over the past few weeks - that however the vote goes, it’s going to take some time to recover from such a heated and divisive campaign. | |
| I’m voting Remain. The EU isn’t perfect but working in conjunction with our neighbours for the common good seems better than the alternative of splendid isolationism and an extremely messy divorce. I also think it would be better for future generations to be connected with a wider world and outward facing. | |
| I also don’t want to endorse the appalling behaviour of the Leave campaign. They’ve sold people a dream of a post EU Britain that’s a land of milk and honey based on lies about immigrants, a rose tinted view of the past and a denial of even the most basic facts. If they win and people don’t get the things they think they’ve been promised – immigrants gone, more money for services and better jobs – it’s going to get really ugly. | |
| The sector I work in depends on passporting rights to sell into the rest of the EU. My employer is located in the UK because of it is English speaking and has access to the single market. Leaving the EU may result in me losing my job. Although no job is guaranteed, I think being in the EU is more likely to be good for jobs and investment than outside it. | |
| An apology from Boris Johnson if it all goes wrong after we leave isn’t going feed, clothe or shelter my family. He won’t go short whatever happens. | |
| I’m dreading the result whatever it is. The whole thing has been so divisive. In the middle ages, people used to get caught up in dancing fever. The EU referendum has been a bit like that. I’ve seen perfectly sensible people spouting off about the need to take their own pen into the voting booth to stop MI5 changing their votes. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.37pm BST | |
| 1.34pm BST | |
| 13:34 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| There has been lots in the news about EU referendum anxiety. Would be interested in hearing how people feel as the day of decision looms? Interesting comment on fear in our form: | |
| The prospect of leaving the EU scares me. I’m not worried about the uncertainty of it but fear more the prospect of living in a country where xenophobia will be allowed to flourish and where a tendency to blame every social and cultural problem on migrants and europeans becomes the norm. | |
| 1.26pm BST | |
| 13:26 | |
| James Walsh | |
| Comments on the site have been suffering from some technical problems this afternoon, as is almost traditional when we run the Wednesday live blog. The form is still open for business, and we’re receiving hundreds of responses from all three camps: those planning to vote Remain, those planning to vote Leave, and those still undecided. | |
| Here is a response from a Leave supporter in Basingstoke, who feels his side has been unfairly caricatured. | |
| I come from an ethnic minority background, I’m 28 and I’m a university graduate. For the Remain camp to label all Leave voters as white, racist, uneducated, old men is completely far-fetched and insulting too. I’ve been living in this country for practically all of my life, I came here from Nigeria when I was six months old. I am very patriotic about this country and it’s more than capable of standing on its own two feet. | |
| People like to talk about risks if we leave the EU but there are just as many risks, if not more, if we decide to remain. I have seen so much negativity from the Remain campaigners. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.31pm BST | |
| 1.20pm BST | |
| 13:20 | |
| Interesting article just launched on why the left should vote leave: | |
| Related: Remain and reform is wishful thinking – the left should vote leave | Nigel Willmott | |
| 1.12pm BST | |
| 13:12 | |
| 'Where is their positive message?' | |
| James Walsh | |
| One thing we’ve noticed over the past few months is how polarised the comments sections have been over the possibility of Brexit. There’s not been much space for indecision or uncertainty: it’s clear that many of you made your minds up months (or possibly years) ago. | |
| So it’s nice to hear from someone who was, until recently, undecided. And Oliver, from Leeds, has been unimpressed with both campaigns. | |
| But he is planning to vote Remain. | |
| I spent a long time on the fence throughout this referendum campaign, as neither side of the argument has really made a coherent argument for either staying in or leaving. Unfortunately, the rhetoric from both sides has been off from the start. | |
| Leave seems to say ‘we can do better’ without actually backing up that idea with coherent policy to improve our financial situation, or any idea of what to do with EU legislation after we leave. If, as they say, 60% of our laws are based on EU legislation or directives, what changes are they going to make to them? Do those changes benefit us? They have become bogged down in a debate about Britishness and immigration, without focusing on any of the important economic or legislative reasons for leaving. I find that when I read statements from them they are too often riddled with intangible, unsupported statements - sometimes bordering on outright lies. | |
| And yet, the Remain camp has done no better, instead defending themselves against the Leave campaign when they should be espousing the positive benefits of EU Membership. Whilst I think the EU is flawed, we do gain in not just trade but security, diversity and legislation from our EU Membership that has been overlooked throughout this campaign. Where is their positive message? Why are they never on the front foot? | |
| It was left to me to take on a lot of research about how the EU works, what the positives and negatives are of it, and whether a Remain or Leave vote would be the right decision. In the end, the Leave campaign is too spurious and superficial, unsupported by any logical, coherent argument as to why we’d be better off, for me to vote for it. As such, I have to choose Remain - the Leave option is too insecure for me. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.17pm BST | |
| 1.08pm BST | |
| 13:08 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| One commenter from our anonymous form lays down their argument for remain: | |
| I was an early “economic migrant” after the banking crisis hit the UK. Having failed for several months to find a job in England, I left to search for work in Belgium. I’ve since been in full-time employment, am happily settled. I now hope to start a family soon. Freedom of movement has benefited me greatly, and others should benefit from it too. Brexit threatens that, and would be a massive step backwards in terms of progress and quality of life for UK citizens. I simply cannot believe that Brexiteers, who claim to be against bureaucracy, want to put in place a migration system that would itself be a massive bureaucracy! What a waste of time and money. | |
| Brexit wouldn’t help my career prospects – though the long negotiations that would take place after Brexit mean I’m not too concerned about it. After all, there are more important things than my job. Even though I had my own set of prejudices about the European institutions before coming to work in Brussels, I now know that most of the EU civil servants aren’t faceless bureaucrats - they are people, most of whom want to see the rule of law, fairness, a decent single market, good environmental regulations and protection of social rights upheld and improved. | |
| I’m married to a lovely woman from another member state. Not only does Brexit threaten our current living arrangements, it could also lead to difficult choices in the future: could my wife and I and any future children stay together and live here, or in the UK, or her country, after Brexit? There are many UK nationals in my position, and I hear that many are applying for Belgian nationality. But I’m not Belgian, I’m English first, British second, and European third, so will proudly keep my UK passport and nationality, even if the country goes in a direction that seems absurd, ill-informed, and chauvinistic. | |
| I can only hope that the remain side wins, and that the discussion about the advantages of EU membership, which has been nearly absent in UK discourse for 25 years, continues after this awful referendum. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.14pm BST | |
| 1.04pm BST | 1.04pm BST |
| 13:04 | 13:04 |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| Here is a Cornish businessman on why he is planning to vote Leave on Thursday. Both sides have claimed to represent the SME constituency, while polling suggests small businesses are evenly split on Brexit. | Here is a Cornish businessman on why he is planning to vote Leave on Thursday. Both sides have claimed to represent the SME constituency, while polling suggests small businesses are evenly split on Brexit. |
| I am an owner of a medium sized manufacturer employing 50 people and primarily operating within the automotive supply chain. As such, according to Remain, I should be selfishly concerned that my business will suffer if we lose free access to the EU market. | I am an owner of a medium sized manufacturer employing 50 people and primarily operating within the automotive supply chain. As such, according to Remain, I should be selfishly concerned that my business will suffer if we lose free access to the EU market. |
| I do have some selfish concerns that the UK might become considered a less favourable manufacturing location in the very short term. However I believe this risk is overstated given the huge trade surplus the EU has over the UK and if any tariff-induced decline in UK exports to the EU were to occur, that would be more than offset by a much greater improvement in the UK domestic supply market as a result of the tariffs then applying on EU sourced imports. | |
| Remain’s nonsense examples of the years it takes the EU to negotiate trade deals with other countries as an example of how long it would take the UK to agree such deals has convinced me that the UK will trade much better with the world outside the EU after leaving. It clearly takes the EU so long because it has 28 members to get to agree. Biggest is not best when agreeing trade deals if you never get to conclude the deal because you cannot reconcile your own side’s conflicting interests let alone reach agreement with the third party. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.08pm BST | |
| 12.54pm BST | 12.54pm BST |
| 12:54 | 12:54 |
| 'It is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum' | 'It is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum' |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| We’ve been hearing from 16 and 17 year old would-be voters. You need to be 18 to vote on Thursday, unlike in 2014’s Scottish independence referendum. Labour peers made an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to expand the franchise ahead of the EU vote. | We’ve been hearing from 16 and 17 year old would-be voters. You need to be 18 to vote on Thursday, unlike in 2014’s Scottish independence referendum. Labour peers made an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to expand the franchise ahead of the EU vote. |
| I am unable to vote at 16 years old, however it is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum either way. Much of my generation are in the Remain camp - myself included - and I think that any members of the elder generations with our best intentions would be too. The freedom to work and study in the EU is vital to our success in the global marketplace. The profits the EU makes us - reported to be £10 for every £1 we pay in - are undeniable and the changes put into place by David Cameron I believe will curb the amount of migrants we receive. It is preposterous that the Leave camp have tried to deny this while, at the same time, promoting a system which we know will only work to increase migration numbers. | I am unable to vote at 16 years old, however it is my generation who will have to deal with the outcome of the referendum either way. Much of my generation are in the Remain camp - myself included - and I think that any members of the elder generations with our best intentions would be too. The freedom to work and study in the EU is vital to our success in the global marketplace. The profits the EU makes us - reported to be £10 for every £1 we pay in - are undeniable and the changes put into place by David Cameron I believe will curb the amount of migrants we receive. It is preposterous that the Leave camp have tried to deny this while, at the same time, promoting a system which we know will only work to increase migration numbers. |
| I would like to ask the voters, whether they are Remain, Leave or undecided one thing: please, tomorrow, do not vote because of your favourite politician. Form your own view whilst looking at the facts. The amount of people who tell me that they are voting Leave “because Boris” is just ridiculous. Being a London citizen, I can fully attest that that way evil lies. | I would like to ask the voters, whether they are Remain, Leave or undecided one thing: please, tomorrow, do not vote because of your favourite politician. Form your own view whilst looking at the facts. The amount of people who tell me that they are voting Leave “because Boris” is just ridiculous. Being a London citizen, I can fully attest that that way evil lies. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.55pm BST | at 12.55pm BST |
| 12.35pm BST | 12.35pm BST |
| 12:35 | 12:35 |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Interesting comment here on how undemocratic the EU is. Would love to hear comments in response to this below the line | Interesting comment here on how undemocratic the EU is. Would love to hear comments in response to this below the line |
| The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy. | The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy. |
| Labour legend Tony Benn-"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected." | Labour legend Tony Benn-"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected." |
| 12.33pm BST | 12.33pm BST |
| 12:33 | 12:33 |
| Jeremy Clarkson on why him and James May are remain | Jeremy Clarkson on why him and James May are remain |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| 12.27pm BST | 12.27pm BST |
| 12:27 | 12:27 |
| 'Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny' | 'Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny' |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| Also from the form, we have a Leave supporter, who lives and works in Denmark. The British EU referendum will be watched with great interest by the Danes, whose relationship with the EU is similar to the UK’s in that it is pretty spiky. A Brexit would likely lead to calls for a referendum on aspects of Denmark’s own membership. | Also from the form, we have a Leave supporter, who lives and works in Denmark. The British EU referendum will be watched with great interest by the Danes, whose relationship with the EU is similar to the UK’s in that it is pretty spiky. A Brexit would likely lead to calls for a referendum on aspects of Denmark’s own membership. |
| I’m British but have lived in Denmark for many years. Personally, I haven’t noticed a negative, or positive, economic impact from living within the EU. My decision how to vote is based on how I see the UK developing in the future and how much I want that development to be within the confines of the EU. | I’m British but have lived in Denmark for many years. Personally, I haven’t noticed a negative, or positive, economic impact from living within the EU. My decision how to vote is based on how I see the UK developing in the future and how much I want that development to be within the confines of the EU. |
| This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to release ourselves from the overbearing interference of the EU. I feel it is a matter of time before another member country has a near economic collapse akin to Greece threatening the financial stability of the EU and thus the UK. Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny and not at the mercy of others. | This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to release ourselves from the overbearing interference of the EU. I feel it is a matter of time before another member country has a near economic collapse akin to Greece threatening the financial stability of the EU and thus the UK. Let us be in control of our own economic and political destiny and not at the mercy of others. |
| Related: Would Brexit trigger a domino effect in Europe? | Related: Would Brexit trigger a domino effect in Europe? |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.29pm BST | at 12.29pm BST |
| 12.16pm BST | 12.16pm BST |
| 12:16 | 12:16 |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| Afternoon everyone. | Afternoon everyone. |
| Remember that as well as posting in the comments, you’re able to contribute anonymously (or otherwise) by filling out the form at the foot of the live blog. | Remember that as well as posting in the comments, you’re able to contribute anonymously (or otherwise) by filling out the form at the foot of the live blog. |
| Here is a view from a retired gentleman in Somerset, who is voting - grudgingly - to Remain. | Here is a view from a retired gentleman in Somerset, who is voting - grudgingly - to Remain. |
| I’m in, despite the ominous sound of deals like TTIP and unfair distribution of wealth (like farm subsidies) for rich land owners with there grouse moors. | I’m in, despite the ominous sound of deals like TTIP and unfair distribution of wealth (like farm subsidies) for rich land owners with there grouse moors. |
| I do not trust the the Brexiteers with the well being of this country, workers’ rights, conservation, pollution, and immigration. | I do not trust the the Brexiteers with the well being of this country, workers’ rights, conservation, pollution, and immigration. |
| We need to work for a better Europe together. We are no longer an empire thank god! As many people have already said so much hate lies and vitriol have surfaced in this debate provoking some to extreme acts. Whatever the outcome a little more tolerance wouldn’t go amiss. | We need to work for a better Europe together. We are no longer an empire thank god! As many people have already said so much hate lies and vitriol have surfaced in this debate provoking some to extreme acts. Whatever the outcome a little more tolerance wouldn’t go amiss. |
| 12.12pm BST | 12.12pm BST |
| 12:12 | 12:12 |
| Ruth Davidson | Ruth Davidson |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Everyone is talking about the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Ruth Davidson after he performance during the BBC’s EU debate last night. What did you think about her? How did you rate the other panel members’ performances? Did anyone else sway you? | Everyone is talking about the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Ruth Davidson after he performance during the BBC’s EU debate last night. What did you think about her? How did you rate the other panel members’ performances? Did anyone else sway you? |
| I worry that my @RuthDavidsonMSP fandom may be swaying me unduly, but she does seem by miles the best in the #BBCDebate | I worry that my @RuthDavidsonMSP fandom may be swaying me unduly, but she does seem by miles the best in the #BBCDebate |
| Who won the #BBCdebate ? That's easy. Ruth Davidson. | Who won the #BBCdebate ? That's easy. Ruth Davidson. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.25pm BST | at 12.25pm BST |
| 12.06pm BST | 12.06pm BST |
| 12:06 | 12:06 |
| I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum | I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum |
| Gary Younge | Gary Younge |
| A couple weeks ago I described the EU referendum as being like “choosing a ditch to die in”. Worn down by the sanctimony of the remain campaign I felt that they were dismissive of real issues regarding sovereignty and the democratic deficit that was driving some people to leave. That said, I was going to vote remain because I prefer the ditch with labour protections, free movement of people and the European court of justice. A couple weeks on and I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum. The poison that Nigel Farage and the Tory right have poured in to the issue has stiffened my resolve to vote remain for the simple reason that if leave wins it will strengthen the hard right in England. That strength will become even greater as a result of Scotland leaving the UK, which it will almost certainly do if the UK as a whole votes to leave. Their ditch is beginning to give off the kind of foul odour that will take years to wash off, whatever the result. | A couple weeks ago I described the EU referendum as being like “choosing a ditch to die in”. Worn down by the sanctimony of the remain campaign I felt that they were dismissive of real issues regarding sovereignty and the democratic deficit that was driving some people to leave. That said, I was going to vote remain because I prefer the ditch with labour protections, free movement of people and the European court of justice. A couple weeks on and I remain ambivalent about the EU but not about the referendum. The poison that Nigel Farage and the Tory right have poured in to the issue has stiffened my resolve to vote remain for the simple reason that if leave wins it will strengthen the hard right in England. That strength will become even greater as a result of Scotland leaving the UK, which it will almost certainly do if the UK as a whole votes to leave. Their ditch is beginning to give off the kind of foul odour that will take years to wash off, whatever the result. |
| 11.55am BST | 11.55am BST |
| 11:55 | 11:55 |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Who has shaped your opinion? Friends or politicians | Who has shaped your opinion? Friends or politicians |
| Related: Friends v politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendum | Related: Friends v politicians: how viral posts are shaping the EU referendum |
| This article above looks at how social media is playing an important role in word-of-mouth advocacy and getting people to engage in the vote. It raises some interesting points. Would be really interested to hear in the comments about whether people have been more convinced than viral posts compared to the words of politicians on this subject? | This article above looks at how social media is playing an important role in word-of-mouth advocacy and getting people to engage in the vote. It raises some interesting points. Would be really interested to hear in the comments about whether people have been more convinced than viral posts compared to the words of politicians on this subject? |
| 11.55am BST | 11.55am BST |
| 11:55 | 11:55 |
| We will be starting the debate in 5 minutes, hope everyone is looking forward to it. Lots of food for thought below. | We will be starting the debate in 5 minutes, hope everyone is looking forward to it. Lots of food for thought below. |