This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.
You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out-live-debate
The article has changed 9 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.
| Version 5 | Version 6 |
|---|---|
| EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate | EU referendum: are you in or out? – live debate |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 2.06pm BST | |
| 14:06 | |
| James Walsh | |
| As our time comes to an end, here is a heartfelt post from humans on both sides of the debate. Thanks for sharing all your views with us over the past few hours. | |
| A plea to vote Leave | |
| For me it is time to take a leap of faith, it is very rare for a people to hold their own destiny in their own hands and I believe we must take advantage of that and vote to leave.Unfortunately I believe a lot of people are voting for the wrong reasons such as immigration and there has been a real lack of factual information coming out from either side to describe what the EU is and how it operates. The fact is the reason so many business leaders want Remain is because the EU is fast becoming a corporate oligarch, it is a huge tax haven and far from supporting the common worker it actually continues to increase the divide between us the people and those with wealth and control. We must bring democracy and power back to a base where we can control it. | |
| Josh Head, Bristol | |
| A plea to Remain | |
| I will be voting remain. When I think of what came before the EU in terms of the divisions and fighting in Europe I feel there is strength in unity. The UK has spent so much of the past trying to distance itself from daring to be called ‘European’ just because a small body of water separates us from the continent. It’s the 21st century and we need to work on how we can help each other and the world. If we leave, and Russia continues with the current campaign of aggression it’s been showing I would feel safer as part of the EU than to be left alone. | |
| As well as this, the economic benefits of being in the EU as well as the other milestones (paid holidays, workers’ rights etc) that it has provided for us cannot be denied. | |
| The vicious, hateful and downright untrue rhetoric that has been spouted by the Leave campaign has sown seeds that shouldn’t have been planted in people’s minds. | |
| Anonymous, Manchester | |
| 1.55pm BST | |
| 13:55 | |
| Thanks everyone who has left their comments - we now just have 5 minutes of debate time left. Get your final questions and comments in now! | |
| 1.53pm BST | |
| 13:53 | |
| Sarah Marsh | |
| Thought it might be nice at this stage (as we begin to wrap up) to add some views from Twitter to the debate. Here are a selection of final pleas for in or out. | |
| Lord Sugar: leaving EU is a gamble we can’t afford to take #BBCDebate https://t.co/OuJHUeupLj | |
| GMB members speak their minds on the EU.https://t.co/nZBU8pVtWn | |
| Just in case you haven't had enough opinions on the #EUref, here's mine https://t.co/INSyB0eLaA | |
| 1.51pm BST | |
| 13:51 | |
| James Walsh | |
| A plea from a commenter for readers of this blog to do their democratic duty.* | |
| Please vote. Wherever you stand please, please vote. Especially you young people. This is the most important decision for the UK for a generation, and (unlike elections) every vote counts. Anything other than a very high turn out would be appalling. | |
| *some of you may have done so already | |
| 1.44pm BST | |
| 13:44 | |
| James Walsh | |
| A couple of comments from readers who were at yesterday’s EU referendum themed Question Time at Wembley arena (not stadium, as The Day Today predicted all those years ago). | |
| I was at the debate in Wembley last night. Aside from all the obviously pre-prepared confected passion from some of the speakers that probably looked good on TV but looked silly in the hall - panellists were happily chatting to each other while the camera wasn't on them then suddenly putting on their "serious face" when it was - I was most struck by the answers to the question of how the EU will develop. | |
| Leave used the publicly available plans of the leaders of the EU to say that it was heading in a direction that they did not like. The remain team - remember these were the three best advocates for the EU selected by the official campaign - did not even attempt to argue why the EU's plans would be good for us. They instead retreated into claiming that the plans aren't real, or that even if they were attempted we would block them. In doing so they were admitting that even the remain team thinks the EU's plans are a bad idea. | |
| If remain win and these publicly stated plans do indeed come to fruition I will at least take some small comfort in the knowledge that the remain team will all happily switch sides the next time the question of our membership comes up. | |
| I was at the Big Debate last night. | |
| Not sure Boris has seen the film 'Independence day'. | |
| It's the one where countries across the world put all national differences aside to make common cause against a threat to them all. | |
| And in which a wild-haired crazy guy who was abducted by aliens goes on a unplanned solo suicide mission to crash and burn in a blaze of glory. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.45pm BST | |
| 1.37pm BST | 1.37pm BST |
| 13:37 | 13:37 |
| How much democracy do we even have in Britain? | How much democracy do we even have in Britain? |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| Would like to highlight this comment, which challenges those who say the EU is undemocratic. What about the House of Lords? How democratic is Britain anyway? | Would like to highlight this comment, which challenges those who say the EU is undemocratic. What about the House of Lords? How democratic is Britain anyway? |
| The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy. | The EU commissioners are appointed not elected. As such the EU is not a democratic institution. Vote leave for democracy. |
| We don't vote for our Prime Minister (they are conventionally the leader of the party with most seats - no one but the PMs constituents had any say in that). Nor do we vote for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home secretary, minister of defense etc etc etc. Nor for that matter do we vote for who the UK US ambassador will be or indeed any other. | We don't vote for our Prime Minister (they are conventionally the leader of the party with most seats - no one but the PMs constituents had any say in that). Nor do we vote for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home secretary, minister of defense etc etc etc. Nor for that matter do we vote for who the UK US ambassador will be or indeed any other. |
| We have representative democracy - because many wise heads centuries ago worked out the problem with vox populi as a method of governance. | We have representative democracy - because many wise heads centuries ago worked out the problem with vox populi as a method of governance. |
| The whole democratic deficit argument is hogwash. | The whole democratic deficit argument is hogwash. |
| Our elected representatives make specific appointments | Our elected representatives make specific appointments |
| 1.36pm BST | 1.36pm BST |
| 13:36 | 13:36 |
| 'I’m dreading the result whatever it is' | 'I’m dreading the result whatever it is' |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| A reader in St Albans echoes a view we’ve heard consistently over the past few weeks - that however the vote goes, it’s going to take some time to recover from such a heated and divisive campaign. | A reader in St Albans echoes a view we’ve heard consistently over the past few weeks - that however the vote goes, it’s going to take some time to recover from such a heated and divisive campaign. |
| I’m voting Remain. The EU isn’t perfect but working in conjunction with our neighbours for the common good seems better than the alternative of splendid isolationism and an extremely messy divorce. I also think it would be better for future generations to be connected with a wider world and outward facing. | I’m voting Remain. The EU isn’t perfect but working in conjunction with our neighbours for the common good seems better than the alternative of splendid isolationism and an extremely messy divorce. I also think it would be better for future generations to be connected with a wider world and outward facing. |
| I also don’t want to endorse the appalling behaviour of the Leave campaign. They’ve sold people a dream of a post EU Britain that’s a land of milk and honey based on lies about immigrants, a rose tinted view of the past and a denial of even the most basic facts. If they win and people don’t get the things they think they’ve been promised – immigrants gone, more money for services and better jobs – it’s going to get really ugly. | I also don’t want to endorse the appalling behaviour of the Leave campaign. They’ve sold people a dream of a post EU Britain that’s a land of milk and honey based on lies about immigrants, a rose tinted view of the past and a denial of even the most basic facts. If they win and people don’t get the things they think they’ve been promised – immigrants gone, more money for services and better jobs – it’s going to get really ugly. |
| The sector I work in depends on passporting rights to sell into the rest of the EU. My employer is located in the UK because of it is English speaking and has access to the single market. Leaving the EU may result in me losing my job. Although no job is guaranteed, I think being in the EU is more likely to be good for jobs and investment than outside it. | The sector I work in depends on passporting rights to sell into the rest of the EU. My employer is located in the UK because of it is English speaking and has access to the single market. Leaving the EU may result in me losing my job. Although no job is guaranteed, I think being in the EU is more likely to be good for jobs and investment than outside it. |
| An apology from Boris Johnson if it all goes wrong after we leave isn’t going feed, clothe or shelter my family. He won’t go short whatever happens. | An apology from Boris Johnson if it all goes wrong after we leave isn’t going feed, clothe or shelter my family. He won’t go short whatever happens. |
| I’m dreading the result whatever it is. The whole thing has been so divisive. In the middle ages, people used to get caught up in dancing fever. The EU referendum has been a bit like that. I’ve seen perfectly sensible people spouting off about the need to take their own pen into the voting booth to stop MI5 changing their votes. | I’m dreading the result whatever it is. The whole thing has been so divisive. In the middle ages, people used to get caught up in dancing fever. The EU referendum has been a bit like that. I’ve seen perfectly sensible people spouting off about the need to take their own pen into the voting booth to stop MI5 changing their votes. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.37pm BST | at 1.37pm BST |
| 1.34pm BST | 1.34pm BST |
| 13:34 | 13:34 |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| There has been lots in the news about EU referendum anxiety. Would be interested in hearing how people feel as the day of decision looms? Interesting comment on fear in our form: | There has been lots in the news about EU referendum anxiety. Would be interested in hearing how people feel as the day of decision looms? Interesting comment on fear in our form: |
| The prospect of leaving the EU scares me. I’m not worried about the uncertainty of it but fear more the prospect of living in a country where xenophobia will be allowed to flourish and where a tendency to blame every social and cultural problem on migrants and europeans becomes the norm. | The prospect of leaving the EU scares me. I’m not worried about the uncertainty of it but fear more the prospect of living in a country where xenophobia will be allowed to flourish and where a tendency to blame every social and cultural problem on migrants and europeans becomes the norm. |
| 1.26pm BST | 1.26pm BST |
| 13:26 | 13:26 |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| Comments on the site have been suffering from some technical problems this afternoon, as is almost traditional when we run the Wednesday live blog. The form is still open for business, and we’re receiving hundreds of responses from all three camps: those planning to vote Remain, those planning to vote Leave, and those still undecided. | Comments on the site have been suffering from some technical problems this afternoon, as is almost traditional when we run the Wednesday live blog. The form is still open for business, and we’re receiving hundreds of responses from all three camps: those planning to vote Remain, those planning to vote Leave, and those still undecided. |
| Here is a response from a Leave supporter in Basingstoke, who feels his side has been unfairly caricatured. | Here is a response from a Leave supporter in Basingstoke, who feels his side has been unfairly caricatured. |
| I come from an ethnic minority background, I’m 28 and I’m a university graduate. For the Remain camp to label all Leave voters as white, racist, uneducated, old men is completely far-fetched and insulting too. I’ve been living in this country for practically all of my life, I came here from Nigeria when I was six months old. I am very patriotic about this country and it’s more than capable of standing on its own two feet. | I come from an ethnic minority background, I’m 28 and I’m a university graduate. For the Remain camp to label all Leave voters as white, racist, uneducated, old men is completely far-fetched and insulting too. I’ve been living in this country for practically all of my life, I came here from Nigeria when I was six months old. I am very patriotic about this country and it’s more than capable of standing on its own two feet. |
| People like to talk about risks if we leave the EU but there are just as many risks, if not more, if we decide to remain. I have seen so much negativity from the Remain campaigners. | People like to talk about risks if we leave the EU but there are just as many risks, if not more, if we decide to remain. I have seen so much negativity from the Remain campaigners. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.31pm BST | at 1.31pm BST |
| 1.20pm BST | 1.20pm BST |
| 13:20 | 13:20 |
| Interesting article just launched on why the left should vote leave: | Interesting article just launched on why the left should vote leave: |
| Related: Remain and reform is wishful thinking – the left should vote leave | Nigel Willmott | Related: Remain and reform is wishful thinking – the left should vote leave | Nigel Willmott |
| 1.12pm BST | 1.12pm BST |
| 13:12 | 13:12 |
| 'Where is their positive message?' | 'Where is their positive message?' |
| James Walsh | James Walsh |
| One thing we’ve noticed over the past few months is how polarised the comments sections have been over the possibility of Brexit. There’s not been much space for indecision or uncertainty: it’s clear that many of you made your minds up months (or possibly years) ago. | One thing we’ve noticed over the past few months is how polarised the comments sections have been over the possibility of Brexit. There’s not been much space for indecision or uncertainty: it’s clear that many of you made your minds up months (or possibly years) ago. |
| So it’s nice to hear from someone who was, until recently, undecided. And Oliver, from Leeds, has been unimpressed with both campaigns. | So it’s nice to hear from someone who was, until recently, undecided. And Oliver, from Leeds, has been unimpressed with both campaigns. |
| But he is planning to vote Remain. | But he is planning to vote Remain. |
| I spent a long time on the fence throughout this referendum campaign, as neither side of the argument has really made a coherent argument for either staying in or leaving. Unfortunately, the rhetoric from both sides has been off from the start. | I spent a long time on the fence throughout this referendum campaign, as neither side of the argument has really made a coherent argument for either staying in or leaving. Unfortunately, the rhetoric from both sides has been off from the start. |
| Leave seems to say ‘we can do better’ without actually backing up that idea with coherent policy to improve our financial situation, or any idea of what to do with EU legislation after we leave. If, as they say, 60% of our laws are based on EU legislation or directives, what changes are they going to make to them? Do those changes benefit us? They have become bogged down in a debate about Britishness and immigration, without focusing on any of the important economic or legislative reasons for leaving. I find that when I read statements from them they are too often riddled with intangible, unsupported statements - sometimes bordering on outright lies. | Leave seems to say ‘we can do better’ without actually backing up that idea with coherent policy to improve our financial situation, or any idea of what to do with EU legislation after we leave. If, as they say, 60% of our laws are based on EU legislation or directives, what changes are they going to make to them? Do those changes benefit us? They have become bogged down in a debate about Britishness and immigration, without focusing on any of the important economic or legislative reasons for leaving. I find that when I read statements from them they are too often riddled with intangible, unsupported statements - sometimes bordering on outright lies. |
| And yet, the Remain camp has done no better, instead defending themselves against the Leave campaign when they should be espousing the positive benefits of EU Membership. Whilst I think the EU is flawed, we do gain in not just trade but security, diversity and legislation from our EU Membership that has been overlooked throughout this campaign. Where is their positive message? Why are they never on the front foot? | And yet, the Remain camp has done no better, instead defending themselves against the Leave campaign when they should be espousing the positive benefits of EU Membership. Whilst I think the EU is flawed, we do gain in not just trade but security, diversity and legislation from our EU Membership that has been overlooked throughout this campaign. Where is their positive message? Why are they never on the front foot? |
| It was left to me to take on a lot of research about how the EU works, what the positives and negatives are of it, and whether a Remain or Leave vote would be the right decision. In the end, the Leave campaign is too spurious and superficial, unsupported by any logical, coherent argument as to why we’d be better off, for me to vote for it. As such, I have to choose Remain - the Leave option is too insecure for me. | It was left to me to take on a lot of research about how the EU works, what the positives and negatives are of it, and whether a Remain or Leave vote would be the right decision. In the end, the Leave campaign is too spurious and superficial, unsupported by any logical, coherent argument as to why we’d be better off, for me to vote for it. As such, I have to choose Remain - the Leave option is too insecure for me. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.17pm BST | at 1.17pm BST |
| 1.08pm BST | 1.08pm BST |
| 13:08 | 13:08 |
| Sarah Marsh | Sarah Marsh |
| One commenter from our anonymous form lays down their argument for remain: | One commenter from our anonymous form lays down their argument for remain: |
| I was an early “economic migrant” after the banking crisis hit the UK. Having failed for several months to find a job in England, I left to search for work in Belgium. I’ve since been in full-time employment, am happily settled. I now hope to start a family soon. Freedom of movement has benefited me greatly, and others should benefit from it too. Brexit threatens that, and would be a massive step backwards in terms of progress and quality of life for UK citizens. I simply cannot believe that Brexiteers, who claim to be against bureaucracy, want to put in place a migration system that would itself be a massive bureaucracy! What a waste of time and money. | I was an early “economic migrant” after the banking crisis hit the UK. Having failed for several months to find a job in England, I left to search for work in Belgium. I’ve since been in full-time employment, am happily settled. I now hope to start a family soon. Freedom of movement has benefited me greatly, and others should benefit from it too. Brexit threatens that, and would be a massive step backwards in terms of progress and quality of life for UK citizens. I simply cannot believe that Brexiteers, who claim to be against bureaucracy, want to put in place a migration system that would itself be a massive bureaucracy! What a waste of time and money. |
| Brexit wouldn’t help my career prospects – though the long negotiations that would take place after Brexit mean I’m not too concerned about it. After all, there are more important things than my job. Even though I had my own set of prejudices about the European institutions before coming to work in Brussels, I now know that most of the EU civil servants aren’t faceless bureaucrats - they are people, most of whom want to see the rule of law, fairness, a decent single market, good environmental regulations and protection of social rights upheld and improved. | Brexit wouldn’t help my career prospects – though the long negotiations that would take place after Brexit mean I’m not too concerned about it. After all, there are more important things than my job. Even though I had my own set of prejudices about the European institutions before coming to work in Brussels, I now know that most of the EU civil servants aren’t faceless bureaucrats - they are people, most of whom want to see the rule of law, fairness, a decent single market, good environmental regulations and protection of social rights upheld and improved. |
| I’m married to a lovely woman from another member state. Not only does Brexit threaten our current living arrangements, it could also lead to difficult choices in the future: could my wife and I and any future children stay together and live here, or in the UK, or her country, after Brexit? There are many UK nationals in my position, and I hear that many are applying for Belgian nationality. But I’m not Belgian, I’m English first, British second, and European third, so will proudly keep my UK passport and nationality, even if the country goes in a direction that seems absurd, ill-informed, and chauvinistic. | I’m married to a lovely woman from another member state. Not only does Brexit threaten our current living arrangements, it could also lead to difficult choices in the future: could my wife and I and any future children stay together and live here, or in the UK, or her country, after Brexit? There are many UK nationals in my position, and I hear that many are applying for Belgian nationality. But I’m not Belgian, I’m English first, British second, and European third, so will proudly keep my UK passport and nationality, even if the country goes in a direction that seems absurd, ill-informed, and chauvinistic. |
| I can only hope that the remain side wins, and that the discussion about the advantages of EU membership, which has been nearly absent in UK discourse for 25 years, continues after this awful referendum. | I can only hope that the remain side wins, and that the discussion about the advantages of EU membership, which has been nearly absent in UK discourse for 25 years, continues after this awful referendum. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.14pm BST | at 1.14pm BST |