This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.

You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/17/third-labour-leadership-debate-live-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-victoria-derbyshire

The article has changed 10 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Version 2 Version 3
Corbyn forced to defend his record on tackling bullying within Labour – live Corbyn forced to defend his record on tackling bullying within Labour – live
(35 minutes later)
10.51am BST
10:51
Student tuition fees or graduate tax?
Smith says that he would abolish student tuition fees and introduce a graduate tax.
Corbyn says he does not believe in a graduate tax because it is still a charge on students. He says he will pay for more public funding of universities through higher corporation tax.
10.47am BST
10:47
Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and says the crucial question is now about the future. “The question for Jeremy and for me in the event that Liam Fox and David Davis sell down the river our protections...”
Corbyn says there are red lines on market access, environmental protections, workers’ rights which he will challenge. “Are we to become a bargain basement, deeply unequal island off the coast of Europe?
“We have to have those protections enshrined in UK law and we have to market access for British manufacturing.”
Corbyn says he is in favour of immigration, but reiterates his proposal for a migrant impact fund. “It is this government [not immigration] destroying public services in this country.”
Updated
at 10.53am BST
10.46am BST
10:46
Should Corbyn take responsibility for the EU referendum?
One questioner asks if Corbyn takes responsibility for losing the Brexit vote, and why has he not resigned?
Corbyn says two-thirds of Labour supporters voted to remain. “The message is that votes were very different in parts of the country,” he said. He is asked again if he takes responsibility. Huge shouts in the audience about this. Another audience member says David Cameron came across far more passionately than Corbyn.
The Labour leader said he had campaigned on the benefits of workers’ rights from being members of the EU, but says he also pointed out that the European Union had to change, including on state aid and on democratic accountabilities.
One 19-year-old member says that he used to be a Brexiter but had been won over by Corbyn’s argument to stay in and reform. “It was Jeremy’s tone that got me to change my mind.”
Updated
at 10.53am BST
10.36am BST
10:36
Smith says he would get Islamic State 'round the table'
Both are now being asked if they would push that theoretical button to use nuclear weapons and their position on Trident.
Smith says he is not a unilateralist. “I used to hold that view, I don’t any longer. I think we should negotiate our way to get rid of nuclear weapons. “The country wants the Labour party to be serious about the security of our country.”
Corbyn says the use of nuclear weapons is “unconscionable”. He says Britain has to fulfil its non-proliferation obligations.
“I do not see how nuclear weapons are dealing with the issues in Syria, Libya or would have in the US on that disastrous day in 9/11.”
Corbyn says it is “obvious” that negotiations in Syria should involve the Assad regime in Syria and others should be involved in proximity talks. He says that Islamic State “are not going to be round the table”.
Smith says that dialogue is the solution, to talk to all parties, though he says he does not believe IS are currently interested in negotiating. “At some point, to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.”
This point, made by Paul Mason, rings true.
Owen Smith seems to suggest ISIS could be "round the table" for Syrian peace talks - Corbyn rejects. Imagine media if other way round?
Incredible moment. Owen Smith says we need to get ISIS "round the table", Corbyn takes tougher stance: https://t.co/7qqP5kkGQX
Updated
at 10.53am BST
10.28am BST
10:28
How would you pay for your spending commitments?
Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. He is asked what growth would be needed for his investment. “It’s hard to predict,” he says.
“Infrastructure projects generate growth, childcare generates growth,” he says. “We have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic success we need.”
Smith said he would raise £13bn in taxes through introducing a wealth tax, reintroducing the 50p rate and not cutting inheritance or corporation tax. “All of the infrastructure investment would be through borrowing in long-term government gilts,” he said.
Smith says he acknowledges that will mean the deficit will grow. “We are passing on failing infrastructure... it’s crucial we invest, we can’t afford not to.”
Updated
at 10.29am BST
10.21am BST
10:21
Owen Smith is asked about being a “backstabber” in resigning and challenging Corbyn.
Smith said he would feel he was letting his constituency down unless he did. “We have got to be in power, and the principal reason I resigned is I do not believe that we can win power under Jeremy. Otherwise I am wasting my time as an MP.”
Updated
at 10.48am BST
10.18am BST10.18am BST
10:1810:18
It’s quiz time! Quiz fire questions to the candidates... It’s quiz time! Quickfire questions to the candidates …
Smith correctly names Taylor Smith and Justin Bieber from a picture, he gets the score of the Wales - Belgium game in Euro 2016 wrong, but says that he had “had a few in the pub.” Smith correctly names Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber from a picture, he gets the score of the Wales v Belgium game in Euro 2016 wrong, but says that he had “had a few in the pub”.
The best thing about Corbyn is “his nice line in cream suits” he says. The worst thing is “he’s not a leader.” The best thing about Corbyn is “his nice line in cream suits”, he says. The worst thing is “he’s not a leader”.
Owen Smith can however name Swifty&Bieber. But fails on Wales scores in Euros. Lads it out by saying he was in the pub so memory hazy. 🍻
Corbyn is asked to pick between Blairism and Trotskyism. “Neither.”Corbyn is asked to pick between Blairism and Trotskyism. “Neither.”
He names the Northern Irish peace process, the minimum wage and the human rights act as Tony Blair’s greatest achievements. He names the Northern Irish peace process, the minimum wage and the Human Rights Act as Tony Blair’s greatest achievements.
He says he is a feminist, but does not cry often. He is asked to look at a photo of Ant and Dec, but he does not know who they are. “I apologise humbly to Ant and Dec,” he says.He says he is a feminist, but does not cry often. He is asked to look at a photo of Ant and Dec, but he does not know who they are. “I apologise humbly to Ant and Dec,” he says.
The best thing about Owen Smith is he is “passionate and direct and gets very excited.” The worse thing is that “he resigned from the shadow cabinet.” The best thing about Owen Smith is he is “passionate and direct and gets very excited”. The worse thing is that “he resigned from the shadow cabinet”.
Updated
at 10.47am BST
10.10am BST10.10am BST
10:1010:10
There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat.There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat.
From author Matt Haig:From author Matt Haig:
If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing.If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing.
From New Statesman writer Liam Young:From New Statesman writer Liam Young:
Owen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVEOwen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVE
From the FT’s Sebastian Payne:From the FT’s Sebastian Payne:
"Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE"Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE
From the BBC’s Adam Fleming:From the BBC’s Adam Fleming:
So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016
From the Spectator’s Isabel Hardman:From the Spectator’s Isabel Hardman:
Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy.Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy.
And this astute observation from Sky News’ Mollie Goodfellow:And this astute observation from Sky News’ Mollie Goodfellow:
This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25
10.00am BST10.00am BST
10:0010:00
How does Labour plan to take votes back from the Conservatives?How does Labour plan to take votes back from the Conservatives?
Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.”Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.”
Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party.Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party.
Smith says one of the issues Corbyn takes credit for is personal independence payments, which he says he was his initiative as shadow work and pensions secretary. “I had one meeting in nine months with Jeremy.” Smith says one of the issues Corbyn takes credit for is personal independence payments, which he says was his initiative as shadow work and pensions secretary. “I had one meeting in nine months with Jeremy.”
Corbyn says it was “we” that defeated the Tories, not just Smith.Corbyn says it was “we” that defeated the Tories, not just Smith.
Both are asked about how responsible they are - on a scale of 1 to 100, how responsible they personally are for the current crisis. Both are asked about how responsible they are – on a scale of 1 to 100, how responsible they personally are for the current crisis.
Smith says he reckons around 3% responsible. “We were behind in about 85% of the polls before the leadership challenge.”Smith says he reckons around 3% responsible. “We were behind in about 85% of the polls before the leadership challenge.”
Corbyn says he is “not going to start putting figures on it” but says he has successfully reached out to other MPs, citing Andy Burnham as someone he has worked well with.Corbyn says he is “not going to start putting figures on it” but says he has successfully reached out to other MPs, citing Andy Burnham as someone he has worked well with.
Updated
at 10.44am BST
9.53am BST9.53am BST
09:5309:53
One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said.One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said.
Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make.Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make.
MPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVEMPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVE
UpdatedUpdated
at 9.54am BSTat 9.54am BST
9.50am BST
09:50
Chakrabarti offered peerage "after Brexit vote"
Corbyn said he did not offer Shami Chakrabarti a peerage before her independent review into anti-semitism. He offered it to her after Cameron resigned, he said, because he understood that would mean that Labour would get one House of Lords nomination. She accepted it then, he said.
He defends her appointment to the House of Lords. “She is a person of intellectual rigour and strength. She proposed a series of rule changes and education, which was well received by the National Executive.”
Corbyn is asked about why just 4% of the Jewish Labour Movement endorsed his leadership in their nominations. Corbyn says he would meet the JLM if he won again. “I would reach out to them, just as I am reaching out to all communities,” he said.
Smith says he has met Jewish representatives over the past few months and said that many do not feel the Chakrabarti report is adequate. One audience member sighs loudly. Smith says no one should be sighing over concerns of anti-semitism.
“They [the Jewish community] have traditionally looked to Labour to represent them, we should all be concerned about this.”
Updated
at 9.51am BST
9.43am BST
09:43
One woman in the audience says she has been a member for three years. The debate in the party is so toxic, she says, she would feel “safer going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter”.
She said her attendance at a Young Labour conference had been fraught with angry debates, with one person walking out in tears.
Corbyn says abuse on social media is unacceptable, and that people forget posts on Twitter and Facebook are there for all time and for all to see. He also says that he attends large numbers of Labour events where there is intelligent and respectful debate.
He denies the atmosphere is toxic, but the audience is asked if it is and there is a resounding “yes.”
Smith says there is a narrative that Corbyn is the only pure socialist in the party. “I’ve never considered myself a Blairite, I’ve always been a socialist, but the way I’ve been portrayed...”
Updated
at 9.44am BST
9.34am BST
09:34
One audience members points to the case of Thangam Debbonaire, the MP who says she was mistakenly given a job which was then taken away while she had cancer treatment, as well as social media abuse of MPs.
Corbyn says that abuse will be dealt with by the party, and new rules will soon be in place to tackle it.
The questioner says that Corbyn always responds by saying he’d been abused too and Derbyshire raises his Observer interview where Corbyn said that he “ignores abuse”.
Corbyn denies he said that others should do that, he says he ignores it when it happens to him.
Smith said that he would go straight for expulsions of abusive members. “Lots of my female colleagues feel it wasn’t taken seriously enough. We’re the Labour party and we’re speaking on national television about anti-semitism.”
Smith says there are shades of hard left opinion in the UK which have “drifted into anti-semitic abuse because of concerns about Israel”. He says that people feel “that at very best we have been insensitive to those concerns... for us to mired in a debate about anti-semitism is shaming to us all.”
Updated
at 9.38am BST
9.34am BST
09:34
How will you unite the membership and MPs?
Smith says that as leader, he will stress there is “more that unites us than divides us.” He says that there is not such a great chasm - but there is laughter in the audience at that remark. Smith says this is about leadership qualities, first and foremost.
Corbyn says that the he was elected leader of the party and appointed a shadow cabinet with a broad church of opinions. He says he would do the same again, and remind Labour MPs of their responsibilities to work together on education, health and austerity.
“I was faced with a period of organised and orchestrated resignations,” he says. He says if elected again he will reach out again, because there are a lot of issues they agree on. There were a lot of groans about the idea of orchestrated resignations.
Updated
at 9.38am BST
9.22am BST
09:22
Corbyn offers to share his allotment with Smith
We have some common ground between the two candidates - both are allotment lovers.
Smith says he gave his up last year when his wife started back at work as a school teacher. “I’m just as fond as Jeremy of growing beans.”
Corbyn then offered to share his allotment with his fellow green-fingered colleague. Allotment plots are genuinely extremely in demand so this is a kind offer.
Owen Smith looks frozen in fear as Jeremy Corbyn suggests they could share an allotment.
Allotment lovers, how will you choose? They BOTH have one #VictoriaLIVE #DiggingForBritain
Updated
at 9.26am BST
9.18am BST
09:18
Peter Gates, who said he works at the University of Nottingham, said he is supported Corbyn because he is “a throughly decent bloke who doesn’t deserve to be treated in the way he has been treated.”
Steve, a solicitor who says he is a long-standing member, says he is voting for Smith. “Labour exists to get things done. If we don’t win power, we won’t get things done. We are in danger of becoming a narrow church.”
He also says he is passionately pro-Europe and says he was very disappointed in Corbyn’s campaign during the referendum. “We should fight for our place in Europe, it is too important.”
Laura, a new member from Lincoln, said she feels she is being pigeon-holed about joining. “I feel my membership and values are questioned,” she said.
Another member says that she is not sure either can lead the party. “You are here to represent the electorate and the whole thing seems to have degenerated into a playground squabble. I hope one of you will convince me you are capable of taking on the Conservatives.”
9.12am BST
09:12
In a sentence, how confident are you that you are going to win?
Corbyn says that he is confident after the support from local Labour parties and says he is touring the country going to both Labour supporting areas and safe Tory seats.
Smith says a lot of the constituency votes were “narrow” and says he is confident he will persuade people that Labour needs to “get ready for government” by changing the leader.
9.05am BST
09:05
The audiences at the two hustings so far have appeared to be more pro-Corbyn.
This being the BBC, there’s been an effort to evenly split the 100 strong audience, between Corbyn supporters, Smith supporters, undecided Labour members and floating voters.
Audience members so far have declared support for both men, but at least one said they planned to vote Conservative for the first time because they found neither an inspiring choice.
That was something Victoria Derbyshire said would be explored later in the debate. Both the candidates are here and neither are wearing a tie.
The debate is live on the BBC News Channel, which can be watched online here.
Updated
at 9.10am BST
8.51am BST
08:51
As we prepare to hear from the two candidates, it’s been mixed news for both of them at the start of the week.
Jeremy Corbyn swept the board of nominations from the constituency Labour parties, taking 84% of endorsements from the local parties who chose to nominate.
Constituency nominations have predicted the winner of a leadership contest among members every year since 1992, though Owen Smith supporters have pointed out that the membership has soared and also is likely to have shifted over the course of the last 12 months.
However, among the general public, a BMG poll last night gave Smith a 24-point lead over Corbyn on the question of who would make the better prime minister.
The poll for the Evening Standard found 58% of the public saying Smith would be a better party leader, 16 points ahead of Corbyn. When it came to who would make the best prime minister, 62% said Smith with 38% saying the current Labour leader.
Updated
at 9.04am BST
8.34am BST
08:34
Labour leadership debate - live
Good morning, we’re covering the third Labour leadership debate which is on the BBC’s Victoria Derbyshire show from 9am, from Nottingham.
Here’s the scene in the studio this morning where a studio audience are waiting for Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
Awaiting these two gentlemen for our Labour leadership debate starting at 9am @BBCNews & online #VictoriaLIVE pic.twitter.com/0A98wJZtUA
Last week in Gateshead, the pair clashed over Europe, where Smith accused the Labour leader of being “10 out of 10” for leaving once the result of the Brexit vote was known.
Smith has spent the week campaigning on the NHS, pledging to raise the NHS budget by 4% each year under a Labour government led by him.
Corbyn focussed a day of campaigning on transport on Tuesday, reiterating his commitment to bringing the railways back into public ownership and extend public control over bus networks, allowing local authorities to have franchising power and establish municipal bus companies.
I’ll try to monitor comments below but you can also find me on Twitter @jessicaelgot.