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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/17/third-labour-leadership-debate-live-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-victoria-derbyshire
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| Version 5 | Version 6 |
|---|---|
| Owen Smith suggests Islamic State needs to 'get round the table' – live | Owen Smith suggests Islamic State needs to 'get round the table' – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 12.34pm BST | |
| 12:34 | |
| Corbyn: 'Smith hasty and ill-considered on Isis' | |
| Corbyn’s team have seized on Smith’s comments on Islamic State during this morning’s debate, describing them as “hasty and ill-considered”. | |
| Jeremy Corbyn's team go on the attack and suggest Owen Smith is being soft on terrorism. pic.twitter.com/2ASbN0dRqN | |
| Updated | |
| at 12.35pm BST | |
| 12.32pm BST | |
| 12:32 | |
| Smith says Isis must renounce violence to begin negotiations | |
| Owen Smith has rowed back on his comments about negotiating with Islamic State. | |
| In a Facebook Q&A, a member of the public asked: | |
| Will you take your comments about having IS around the table regarding peace talks back? Death cults who exist to destroy the West and kill civilians are not interested in peace talks. | |
| Smith answered: | |
| I agree with you that they’re not interested in peace talks - and that means there can’t be any. There can be absolutely no negotiation with any terrorist group until they renounce violence, cease all acts of terror and commit themselves to a peaceful settlement. My experience of working on the peace process in Northern Ireland, though, is that eventually all parties who truly believe in delivering peace have to be around the table. In the Middle East at the moment that clearly doesn’t include - and may never include - Isis. | |
| It was inevitable that he would clarify his comments but not sure that this will dispel the concerns they raised about his judgement. | |
| 12.18pm BST | |
| 12:18 | |
| A Q&A with Owen Smith on Facebook is starting now. | |
| The second question posted, predictably, is | |
| Owen - could you clarify your statements on Islamic State? A few Smith supporters, me included, are worried about exactly what you meant. | |
| A number of others have posted questions along similar lines, including these: | |
| In terms of negotiations with ISIS, if you were Prime Minister would you visit Raqqa to negotiate or invite ISIS leaders to Downing Street to discuss peace talks there? | |
| How can you possibly claim to be more electorally popular than Jeremy when you want to sit down at the negotiating table with Jihadi John and ISIS fanatics? | |
| 11.30am BST | 11.30am BST |
| 11:30 | 11:30 |
| Labour leadership debate – key flash points | Labour leadership debate – key flash points |
| Syria | Syria |
| One major bone of contention between the two was international diplomacy around the crisis in Syria. Corbyn said negotiations should involve the Assad government and others in “proximity talks”. He said Islamic State “shouldn’t be round the table, no”. | One major bone of contention between the two was international diplomacy around the crisis in Syria. Corbyn said negotiations should involve the Assad government and others in “proximity talks”. He said Islamic State “shouldn’t be round the table, no”. |
| Smith went much further. He said: “At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.” | Smith went much further. He said: “At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.” |
| Europe | Europe |
| Corbyn said he would fight against any consequences Brexit would have for workers’ rights, environmental protection and access to the market for British industry, but stopped short of saying Labour should work to prevent Brexit. | Corbyn said he would fight against any consequences Brexit would have for workers’ rights, environmental protection and access to the market for British industry, but stopped short of saying Labour should work to prevent Brexit. |
| Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and said he would keep making the argument for EU membership. | Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and said he would keep making the argument for EU membership. |
| Student fees | Student fees |
| This was a key policy difference that emerged between the two. Smith said he was against fees but favoured a graduate tax as a way of funding universities. | This was a key policy difference that emerged between the two. Smith said he was against fees but favoured a graduate tax as a way of funding universities. |
| Corbyn said he was opposed to both, and said he would scrap fees and increase public funding of universities via higher corporation taxation. | Corbyn said he was opposed to both, and said he would scrap fees and increase public funding of universities via higher corporation taxation. |
| Economy | Economy |
| Corbyn’s spending plans were vaguer than Smith’s but the debate saw the former work and pensions secretary acknowledge borrowing would increase and the deficit rise for his proposed £200bn infrastructure investment, using long-term loans. He also said tax changes would lead to increased revenue of £13bn. | Corbyn’s spending plans were vaguer than Smith’s but the debate saw the former work and pensions secretary acknowledge borrowing would increase and the deficit rise for his proposed £200bn infrastructure investment, using long-term loans. He also said tax changes would lead to increased revenue of £13bn. |
| Asked about his spending and borrowing plans, Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. But he was unable to say what extent of economic growth would be required to fully fund his proposals. | Asked about his spending and borrowing plans, Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. But he was unable to say what extent of economic growth would be required to fully fund his proposals. |
| Handing over now to my colleague Haroon Siddique who will take you through the political reaction into the afternoon. | Handing over now to my colleague Haroon Siddique who will take you through the political reaction into the afternoon. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.54am BST | at 11.54am BST |
| 11.06am BST | 11.06am BST |
| 11:06 | 11:06 |
| It’s been a lively debate but I think this – as close as Corbyn gets to an angry voice – is one of the best bits. | It’s been a lively debate but I think this – as close as Corbyn gets to an angry voice – is one of the best bits. |
| Jeremy Corbyn telling Owen Smith to be quiet is my new jam #VictoriaLIVE https://t.co/GCLCo4PnRw | Jeremy Corbyn telling Owen Smith to be quiet is my new jam #VictoriaLIVE https://t.co/GCLCo4PnRw |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.11am BST | at 11.11am BST |
| 10.59am BST | 10.59am BST |
| 10:59 | 10:59 |
| The debate is over now and large swaths of the undecided section of the audience have moved over to support Jeremy Corbyn. | The debate is over now and large swaths of the undecided section of the audience have moved over to support Jeremy Corbyn. |
| One said it was Corbyn’s commitment to community activism that persuaded him and another by his arguments on child mental health which he stated at the end of the programme. | One said it was Corbyn’s commitment to community activism that persuaded him and another by his arguments on child mental health which he stated at the end of the programme. |
| Another, remaining in the middle, says she is still genuinely unconvinced, and has decided she will abstain. | Another, remaining in the middle, says she is still genuinely unconvinced, and has decided she will abstain. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.01am BST | at 11.01am BST |
| 10.56am BST | 10.56am BST |
| 10:56 | 10:56 |
| Smith’s comments on Islamic State are creating a bit of a stir on social media. Here’s what he said in full: | Smith’s comments on Islamic State are creating a bit of a stir on social media. Here’s what he said in full: |
| My view is that ultimately all solutions to these crises do come about through dialogue. | My view is that ultimately all solutions to these crises do come about through dialogue. |
| So eventually if we are to try and solve this, all of the actors do need to be involved. At the moment, Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating. | So eventually if we are to try and solve this, all of the actors do need to be involved. At the moment, Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating. |
| At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table. | At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table. |
| Owen Smith is channelling Jonathan Powell on the inevitability of negotiations. But every now and again someone is unroundthetableable. | Owen Smith is channelling Jonathan Powell on the inevitability of negotiations. But every now and again someone is unroundthetableable. |
| Appalling answer from Owen Smith too. Praises dialogue, then says "all the actors have to be involved". Actually wants Isis round the table. | Appalling answer from Owen Smith too. Praises dialogue, then says "all the actors have to be involved". Actually wants Isis round the table. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.00am BST | at 11.00am BST |
| 10.51am BST | 10.51am BST |
| 10:51 | 10:51 |
| Student tuition fees or graduate tax? | Student tuition fees or graduate tax? |
| Smith says that he would abolish student tuition fees and introduce a graduate tax. | Smith says that he would abolish student tuition fees and introduce a graduate tax. |
| Corbyn says he does not believe in a graduate tax because it is still a charge on students. He says he will pay for more public funding of universities through higher corporation tax. | Corbyn says he does not believe in a graduate tax because it is still a charge on students. He says he will pay for more public funding of universities through higher corporation tax. |
| 10.47am BST | 10.47am BST |
| 10:47 | 10:47 |
| Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and says the crucial question is now about the future. “The question for Jeremy and for me in the event that Liam Fox and David Davis sell down the river our protections...” | Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and says the crucial question is now about the future. “The question for Jeremy and for me in the event that Liam Fox and David Davis sell down the river our protections...” |
| Corbyn says there are red lines on market access, environmental protections, workers’ rights which he will challenge. “Are we to become a bargain basement, deeply unequal island off the coast of Europe? | Corbyn says there are red lines on market access, environmental protections, workers’ rights which he will challenge. “Are we to become a bargain basement, deeply unequal island off the coast of Europe? |
| “We have to have those protections enshrined in UK law and we have to market access for British manufacturing.” | “We have to have those protections enshrined in UK law and we have to market access for British manufacturing.” |
| Corbyn says he is in favour of immigration, but reiterates his proposal for a migrant impact fund. “It is this government [not immigration] destroying public services in this country.” | Corbyn says he is in favour of immigration, but reiterates his proposal for a migrant impact fund. “It is this government [not immigration] destroying public services in this country.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.53am BST | at 10.53am BST |
| 10.46am BST | 10.46am BST |
| 10:46 | 10:46 |
| Should Corbyn take responsibility for the EU referendum? | Should Corbyn take responsibility for the EU referendum? |
| One questioner asks if Corbyn takes responsibility for losing the Brexit vote, and why has he not resigned? | One questioner asks if Corbyn takes responsibility for losing the Brexit vote, and why has he not resigned? |
| Corbyn says two-thirds of Labour supporters voted to remain. “The message is that votes were very different in parts of the country,” he said. He is asked again if he takes responsibility. Huge shouts in the audience about this. Another audience member says David Cameron came across far more passionately than Corbyn. | Corbyn says two-thirds of Labour supporters voted to remain. “The message is that votes were very different in parts of the country,” he said. He is asked again if he takes responsibility. Huge shouts in the audience about this. Another audience member says David Cameron came across far more passionately than Corbyn. |
| The Labour leader said he had campaigned on the benefits of workers’ rights from being members of the EU, but says he also pointed out that the European Union had to change, including on state aid and on democratic accountabilities. | The Labour leader said he had campaigned on the benefits of workers’ rights from being members of the EU, but says he also pointed out that the European Union had to change, including on state aid and on democratic accountabilities. |
| One 19-year-old member says that he used to be a Brexiter but had been won over by Corbyn’s argument to stay in and reform. “It was Jeremy’s tone that got me to change my mind.” | One 19-year-old member says that he used to be a Brexiter but had been won over by Corbyn’s argument to stay in and reform. “It was Jeremy’s tone that got me to change my mind.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.53am BST | at 10.53am BST |
| 10.36am BST | 10.36am BST |
| 10:36 | 10:36 |
| Smith says he would get Islamic State 'round the table' | Smith says he would get Islamic State 'round the table' |
| Both are now being asked if they would push that theoretical button to use nuclear weapons and their position on Trident. | Both are now being asked if they would push that theoretical button to use nuclear weapons and their position on Trident. |
| Smith says he is not a unilateralist. “I used to hold that view, I don’t any longer. I think we should negotiate our way to get rid of nuclear weapons. “The country wants the Labour party to be serious about the security of our country.” | Smith says he is not a unilateralist. “I used to hold that view, I don’t any longer. I think we should negotiate our way to get rid of nuclear weapons. “The country wants the Labour party to be serious about the security of our country.” |
| Corbyn says the use of nuclear weapons is “unconscionable”. He says Britain has to fulfil its non-proliferation obligations. | Corbyn says the use of nuclear weapons is “unconscionable”. He says Britain has to fulfil its non-proliferation obligations. |
| “I do not see how nuclear weapons are dealing with the issues in Syria, Libya or would have in the US on that disastrous day in 9/11.” | “I do not see how nuclear weapons are dealing with the issues in Syria, Libya or would have in the US on that disastrous day in 9/11.” |
| Corbyn says it is “obvious” that negotiations in Syria should involve the Assad regime in Syria and others should be involved in proximity talks. He says that Islamic State “are not going to be round the table”. | Corbyn says it is “obvious” that negotiations in Syria should involve the Assad regime in Syria and others should be involved in proximity talks. He says that Islamic State “are not going to be round the table”. |
| Smith says that dialogue is the solution, to talk to all parties, though he says he does not believe IS are currently interested in negotiating. “At some point, to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.” | Smith says that dialogue is the solution, to talk to all parties, though he says he does not believe IS are currently interested in negotiating. “At some point, to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.” |
| This point, made by Paul Mason, rings true. | This point, made by Paul Mason, rings true. |
| Owen Smith seems to suggest ISIS could be "round the table" for Syrian peace talks - Corbyn rejects. Imagine media if other way round? | Owen Smith seems to suggest ISIS could be "round the table" for Syrian peace talks - Corbyn rejects. Imagine media if other way round? |
| Incredible moment. Owen Smith says we need to get ISIS "round the table", Corbyn takes tougher stance: https://t.co/7qqP5kkGQX | Incredible moment. Owen Smith says we need to get ISIS "round the table", Corbyn takes tougher stance: https://t.co/7qqP5kkGQX |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.53am BST | at 10.53am BST |
| 10.28am BST | 10.28am BST |
| 10:28 | 10:28 |
| How would you pay for your spending commitments? | How would you pay for your spending commitments? |
| Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. He is asked what growth would be needed for his investment. “It’s hard to predict,” he says. | Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. He is asked what growth would be needed for his investment. “It’s hard to predict,” he says. |
| “Infrastructure projects generate growth, childcare generates growth,” he says. “We have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic success we need.” | “Infrastructure projects generate growth, childcare generates growth,” he says. “We have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic success we need.” |
| Smith said he would raise £13bn in taxes through introducing a wealth tax, reintroducing the 50p rate and not cutting inheritance or corporation tax. “All of the infrastructure investment would be through borrowing in long-term government gilts,” he said. | Smith said he would raise £13bn in taxes through introducing a wealth tax, reintroducing the 50p rate and not cutting inheritance or corporation tax. “All of the infrastructure investment would be through borrowing in long-term government gilts,” he said. |
| Smith says he acknowledges that will mean the deficit will grow. “We are passing on failing infrastructure... it’s crucial we invest, we can’t afford not to.” | Smith says he acknowledges that will mean the deficit will grow. “We are passing on failing infrastructure... it’s crucial we invest, we can’t afford not to.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.29am BST | at 10.29am BST |
| 10.21am BST | 10.21am BST |
| 10:21 | 10:21 |
| Owen Smith is asked about being a “backstabber” in resigning and challenging Corbyn. | Owen Smith is asked about being a “backstabber” in resigning and challenging Corbyn. |
| Smith said he would feel he was letting his constituency down unless he did. “We have got to be in power, and the principal reason I resigned is I do not believe that we can win power under Jeremy. Otherwise I am wasting my time as an MP.” | Smith said he would feel he was letting his constituency down unless he did. “We have got to be in power, and the principal reason I resigned is I do not believe that we can win power under Jeremy. Otherwise I am wasting my time as an MP.” |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.48am BST | at 10.48am BST |
| 10.18am BST | 10.18am BST |
| 10:18 | 10:18 |
| It’s quiz time! Quickfire questions to the candidates … | It’s quiz time! Quickfire questions to the candidates … |
| Smith correctly names Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber from a picture, he gets the score of the Wales v Belgium game in Euro 2016 wrong, but says that he had “had a few in the pub”. | Smith correctly names Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber from a picture, he gets the score of the Wales v Belgium game in Euro 2016 wrong, but says that he had “had a few in the pub”. |
| The best thing about Corbyn is “his nice line in cream suits”, he says. The worst thing is “he’s not a leader”. | The best thing about Corbyn is “his nice line in cream suits”, he says. The worst thing is “he’s not a leader”. |
| Owen Smith can however name Swifty&Bieber. But fails on Wales scores in Euros. Lads it out by saying he was in the pub so memory hazy. 🍻 | Owen Smith can however name Swifty&Bieber. But fails on Wales scores in Euros. Lads it out by saying he was in the pub so memory hazy. 🍻 |
| Corbyn is asked to pick between Blairism and Trotskyism. “Neither.” | Corbyn is asked to pick between Blairism and Trotskyism. “Neither.” |
| He names the Northern Irish peace process, the minimum wage and the Human Rights Act as Tony Blair’s greatest achievements. | He names the Northern Irish peace process, the minimum wage and the Human Rights Act as Tony Blair’s greatest achievements. |
| He says he is a feminist, but does not cry often. He is asked to look at a photo of Ant and Dec, but he does not know who they are. “I apologise humbly to Ant and Dec,” he says. | He says he is a feminist, but does not cry often. He is asked to look at a photo of Ant and Dec, but he does not know who they are. “I apologise humbly to Ant and Dec,” he says. |
| The best thing about Owen Smith is he is “passionate and direct and gets very excited”. The worse thing is that “he resigned from the shadow cabinet”. | The best thing about Owen Smith is he is “passionate and direct and gets very excited”. The worse thing is that “he resigned from the shadow cabinet”. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.47am BST | at 10.47am BST |
| 10.10am BST | 10.10am BST |
| 10:10 | 10:10 |
| There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat. | There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat. |
| From author Matt Haig: | From author Matt Haig: |
| If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing. | If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing. |
| From New Statesman writer Liam Young: | From New Statesman writer Liam Young: |
| Owen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVE | Owen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVE |
| From the FT’s Sebastian Payne: | From the FT’s Sebastian Payne: |
| "Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE | "Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE |
| From the BBC’s Adam Fleming: | From the BBC’s Adam Fleming: |
| So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016 | So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016 |
| From the Spectator’s Isabel Hardman: | From the Spectator’s Isabel Hardman: |
| Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy. | Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy. |
| And this astute observation from Sky News’ Mollie Goodfellow: | And this astute observation from Sky News’ Mollie Goodfellow: |
| This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25 | This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25 |
| 10.00am BST | 10.00am BST |
| 10:00 | 10:00 |
| How does Labour plan to take votes back from the Conservatives? | How does Labour plan to take votes back from the Conservatives? |
| Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.” | Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.” |
| Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party. | Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party. |
| Smith says one of the issues Corbyn takes credit for is personal independence payments, which he says was his initiative as shadow work and pensions secretary. “I had one meeting in nine months with Jeremy.” | Smith says one of the issues Corbyn takes credit for is personal independence payments, which he says was his initiative as shadow work and pensions secretary. “I had one meeting in nine months with Jeremy.” |
| Corbyn says it was “we” that defeated the Tories, not just Smith. | Corbyn says it was “we” that defeated the Tories, not just Smith. |
| Both are asked about how responsible they are – on a scale of 1 to 100, how responsible they personally are for the current crisis. | Both are asked about how responsible they are – on a scale of 1 to 100, how responsible they personally are for the current crisis. |
| Smith says he reckons around 3% responsible. “We were behind in about 85% of the polls before the leadership challenge.” | Smith says he reckons around 3% responsible. “We were behind in about 85% of the polls before the leadership challenge.” |
| Corbyn says he is “not going to start putting figures on it” but says he has successfully reached out to other MPs, citing Andy Burnham as someone he has worked well with. | Corbyn says he is “not going to start putting figures on it” but says he has successfully reached out to other MPs, citing Andy Burnham as someone he has worked well with. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.44am BST | at 10.44am BST |
| 9.53am BST | 9.53am BST |
| 09:53 | 09:53 |
| One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said. | One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said. |
| Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make. | Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make. |
| MPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVE | MPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVE |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 9.54am BST | at 9.54am BST |