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Behind Traingate: we retrace Jeremy Corbyn's trip to see reality of UK rail travel – live Virgin v Jeremy Corbyn: what rail passengers think of Traingate – live
(35 minutes later)
2.27pm BST
14:27
Martin Belam
Alex Howard has sent this about being a frequent traveller on the same route via our Guardian Witness assignment on this topic. Please feel free to contribute.
A frequent passenger in York
I've lived in Leeds and York for the last three years but have family in the south, so I've been a frequent user of this service and can confirm that it's often pretty bad. If you're travelling in the middle of the day, in the week, and have pre-booked then it's usually fine, but lots of people aren't able to do all of those things. I've also been on this service mid-day during school holidays and had to sit on the floor (a very tired-looking woman with a child was sat in my reserved seat and I couldn't bring myself to tell her that her ticket was for a different train). Air conditioning has often been broken, no power to carriages for plug sockets, and I've been on services so disrupted that seat reservations have been discarded completely and it becomes a free-for-all. But this is all pretty standard stuff for train services across the country, I don't think it's anything special about Virgin Trains.
Sent via Guardian Witness
By AlexHoward
24 August 2016, 12:57
2.18pm BST
14:18
Martin Belam
Worth noting from the comments below this open question: “Any word on here about Virgin being open to prosecution with their hastily cobbled together CCTV footage being a breach of the Data Protection Act?”
Yes, there is.
2.09pm BST
14:09
Martin Belam
If you are reading this live blog, it suggests you probably have strong opinions about #Traingate. Or maybe about live blogs. YouGov are currently carrying out a survey asking people what they think about the train story. Don’t tell them we sent you.
1.58pm BST1.58pm BST
13:5813:58
Martin BelamMartin Belam
ID0993227 makes a very good point about whether Corbyn could have reserved the cheapest seats in advance for that day. Referring to Linda who I spoke to earlier, they say:ID0993227 makes a very good point about whether Corbyn could have reserved the cheapest seats in advance for that day. Referring to Linda who I spoke to earlier, they say:
“The lady on the train said she reserves her seats 12 weeks in advance. Corbyn was going to the leadership hustings in Gateshead, which he couldn’t have known about 12 weeks in advance - no one could have.”“The lady on the train said she reserves her seats 12 weeks in advance. Corbyn was going to the leadership hustings in Gateshead, which he couldn’t have known about 12 weeks in advance - no one could have.”
1.54pm BST1.54pm BST
13:5413:54
Martin BelamMartin Belam
On rail privatisation, in the comments Fergus Patterson makes this point:On rail privatisation, in the comments Fergus Patterson makes this point:
Network Rail is already “state owned” and much of the farce of rail travel is due to the poor condition of the rail infrastructure. What is needed is greater regulation of the TOC’s with rules on investment, proper control of ticketing etc.... the LAST thing we need is a return to British Rail and the lamentable service we endured pre-privatisation. If the DoT can’t invest properly in the points, signals, tracks etc... why would they be any better at investing in the rolling stock?Network Rail is already “state owned” and much of the farce of rail travel is due to the poor condition of the rail infrastructure. What is needed is greater regulation of the TOC’s with rules on investment, proper control of ticketing etc.... the LAST thing we need is a return to British Rail and the lamentable service we endured pre-privatisation. If the DoT can’t invest properly in the points, signals, tracks etc... why would they be any better at investing in the rolling stock?
Earlier in the year the government published the Shaw report into the future shape and financing of Network Rail. It will be interesting to see how many of the recommendations are taken on by the new administration.Earlier in the year the government published the Shaw report into the future shape and financing of Network Rail. It will be interesting to see how many of the recommendations are taken on by the new administration.
1.32pm BST1.32pm BST
13:3213:32
Martin BelamMartin Belam
Of course, the important thing isn’t really about seeing whether I got a seat today, or trying to unpick the timestamps on the CCTV pictures that Virgin released to try and pin down the exact timeline of Jeremy Corbyn’s journey. The important thing is to use that as an opportunity to see how we manage train services in the UK.Of course, the important thing isn’t really about seeing whether I got a seat today, or trying to unpick the timestamps on the CCTV pictures that Virgin released to try and pin down the exact timeline of Jeremy Corbyn’s journey. The important thing is to use that as an opportunity to see how we manage train services in the UK.
TUC research shows ticket price rises are far outstripping pay rises, and commuters are understandably disgruntled with the service they receive. One regular on part of the route I took today messaged me earlier. Joanne Wagstaffe says: “I pay £7,992 for an annual season ticket. We moved to Peterborough to buy a house, as London is too expensive. I have to book my seat 3 months in advance. Sometimes there are no seats available. Sometimes they are double booked. If there is a cancellation of the train 20 mins before mine in the morning, then it is chaos.”TUC research shows ticket price rises are far outstripping pay rises, and commuters are understandably disgruntled with the service they receive. One regular on part of the route I took today messaged me earlier. Joanne Wagstaffe says: “I pay £7,992 for an annual season ticket. We moved to Peterborough to buy a house, as London is too expensive. I have to book my seat 3 months in advance. Sometimes there are no seats available. Sometimes they are double booked. If there is a cancellation of the train 20 mins before mine in the morning, then it is chaos.”
1.30pm BST1.30pm BST
13:3013:30
Here are two contributions on GuardianWitness:Here are two contributions on GuardianWitness:
Regular traveller KGX to NEWCASTLERegular traveller KGX to NEWCASTLE
I am a regular user of the Newcastle to King's Cross service - as a Geordie based in London and now Cambridge I have been taking this train regularly for the past 8 years.I am a regular user of the Newcastle to King's Cross service - as a Geordie based in London and now Cambridge I have been taking this train regularly for the past 8 years.
Often, because of work demands I can only book an open-return for these journeys. I very regularly fail to get a seat on this service, have seen families taking turns sitting in the only seat available to them - often with children placed on laps for the 3 hour journey. There are regular mishaps with the reservations, such as seats not being labelled as reserved when they have indeed been reserved.Often, because of work demands I can only book an open-return for these journeys. I very regularly fail to get a seat on this service, have seen families taking turns sitting in the only seat available to them - often with children placed on laps for the 3 hour journey. There are regular mishaps with the reservations, such as seats not being labelled as reserved when they have indeed been reserved.
Seeing someone stooped in a corner on the floor reading a book or their work notes is an all too familiar situation for passengers on this service.Seeing someone stooped in a corner on the floor reading a book or their work notes is an all too familiar situation for passengers on this service.
What I find particularly hilarious is that Virgin, presumably because Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, offered him a complimentary upgrade to first class. When I have been in that situation they have offered me an upgrade on the odd occasion, but usually for an extra 25 quid or so.What I find particularly hilarious is that Virgin, presumably because Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, offered him a complimentary upgrade to first class. When I have been in that situation they have offered me an upgrade on the odd occasion, but usually for an extra 25 quid or so.
Virgin, a bit like Southern, are fleecing their customers to line their shareholders' pockets.Virgin, a bit like Southern, are fleecing their customers to line their shareholders' pockets.
Sent via Guardian WitnessSent via Guardian Witness
By Jonathan WilsonBy Jonathan Wilson
24 August 2016, 12:1224 August 2016, 12:12
Train journeysTrain journeys
Regardless of whether Corbyn should have sat in a reserved seat or not; as a frequent train traveller, it seems to me the point has been lost in the attempts to discredit him. Trains in the UK are a disgrace and not being able to find a seat IS a very common occurrence for a lot of people. With prices inflated as much as they are, surely that's the story and not Corbyn?Regardless of whether Corbyn should have sat in a reserved seat or not; as a frequent train traveller, it seems to me the point has been lost in the attempts to discredit him. Trains in the UK are a disgrace and not being able to find a seat IS a very common occurrence for a lot of people. With prices inflated as much as they are, surely that's the story and not Corbyn?
Sent via Guardian WitnessSent via Guardian Witness
By Lembo59By Lembo59
24 August 2016, 11:3524 August 2016, 11:35
If you want to share your views, click on the blue button.If you want to share your views, click on the blue button.
1.25pm BST1.25pm BST
13:2513:25
Martin BelamMartin Belam
Huge thanks to Fran Lawther who has been in charge of updating the live blog while I was filing via my phone during the journey. I was pleasantly surprised to find I had signal for most of the way. I’ve now got myself a place with wifi near the station - and I’ll be picking up some of the points you’ve made BTL and via Guardian Witness.Huge thanks to Fran Lawther who has been in charge of updating the live blog while I was filing via my phone during the journey. I was pleasantly surprised to find I had signal for most of the way. I’ve now got myself a place with wifi near the station - and I’ll be picking up some of the points you’ve made BTL and via Guardian Witness.
1.15pm BST1.15pm BST
13:1513:15
Martin BelamMartin Belam
We’ve arrived in York, which is looking absolutely gorgeous in the sunshine. The train was on time and there were plenty of seats – even with the number of journalists onboard pestering people for their opinions about UK rail.We’ve arrived in York, which is looking absolutely gorgeous in the sunshine. The train was on time and there were plenty of seats – even with the number of journalists onboard pestering people for their opinions about UK rail.
1.10pm BST1.10pm BST
13:1013:10
Martin BelamMartin Belam
I’ve spoken to Sef who feels the service on the east coast mainline has deteriorated rapidly.I’ve spoken to Sef who feels the service on the east coast mainline has deteriorated rapidly.
There seems to be this dogma that everything that is privatised has to work better. Well, it works better for the shareholders.There seems to be this dogma that everything that is privatised has to work better. Well, it works better for the shareholders.
He cites two broken toilets on this train that have forced him to walk further through the carriages. He says it is really important for people to realise how the service has been diminished by the new franchise.He cites two broken toilets on this train that have forced him to walk further through the carriages. He says it is really important for people to realise how the service has been diminished by the new franchise.
1.07pm BST1.07pm BST
13:0713:07
Owen Smith is not the only Labour MP to have weighed into the party leader’s transport row.Owen Smith is not the only Labour MP to have weighed into the party leader’s transport row.
I wonder how Jeremy will spin his way out of this one. #traingateI wonder how Jeremy will spin his way out of this one. #traingate
Good spot! https://t.co/aMKcwaDkbLGood spot! https://t.co/aMKcwaDkbL
I don't care about #traingate tbh. If you think JC campaign don't spin you are kidding yourselves. Straight talking honest politics is a lieI don't care about #traingate tbh. If you think JC campaign don't spin you are kidding yourselves. Straight talking honest politics is a lie
Perhaps It was the Hogwarts Express. And all the children were wearing invisibility cloaks.Perhaps It was the Hogwarts Express. And all the children were wearing invisibility cloaks.
Reminds of JC denying he'd called for #Article50 invocation but had. Virgin challenges Jeremy Corbyn train footagehttps://t.co/uwB5xoenYgReminds of JC denying he'd called for #Article50 invocation but had. Virgin challenges Jeremy Corbyn train footagehttps://t.co/uwB5xoenYg
However, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell focus on the party’s NHS push.However, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell focus on the party’s NHS push.
With @jeremycorbyn & fantastic #nhs activists Dr Rishi and Nurse Danielle. At UCLU launching Jeremy's Health Policy. pic.twitter.com/hFMefihdcVWith @jeremycorbyn & fantastic #nhs activists Dr Rishi and Nurse Danielle. At UCLU launching Jeremy's Health Policy. pic.twitter.com/hFMefihdcV
Labour's Shadow Health Secretary @HackneyAbbott and @jeremycorbyn pledge to renationalise the NHS. https://t.co/C3l98kCt5jLabour's Shadow Health Secretary @HackneyAbbott and @jeremycorbyn pledge to renationalise the NHS. https://t.co/C3l98kCt5j
1.00pm BST
13:00
Virgin Trains faces investigation by data protection watchdog
My colleague Damien Gayle has more on Virgin potentially being in hot water with the information commissioner:
Virgin Trains faces an investigation by the data protection watchdog after releasing footage of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, looking for seats on its London to Newcastle service.
Officials at the information commissioner’s office are making inquiries over whether the train operator, owned by Sir Richard Branson, breached the Data Protection Act, which governs the release of such data.
It comes after Virgin accused Corbyn of lying over a claim, filmed and circulated to the press and online, that he had not been able to find a seat on the “ram-packed” train. The Labour leader had used the episode to reiterate his calls for the re-nationalisation of rail services.
An ICO spokesperson said: “We are aware of the publication of CCTV images of Jeremy Corbyn and are making inquiries. All organisations have an obligation to comply with the Data Protection Act and must have legitimate grounds for processing the personal data they hold.
“Where there’s a suggestion that this hasn’t happened, the ICO has the power to investigate and can take enforcement action if necessary.”
According to the ICO’s CCTV code of practice, the disclosure of footage must be “consistent with the purpose(s) for which the system was established”.
In words that seem particularly apposite in Corbyn’s case, it adds: “For example, it can be appropriate to disclose surveillance information to a law enforcement agency when the purpose of the system is to prevent and detect crime, but it would not be appropriate to place them on the internet in most situations. It may also not be appropriate to disclose information about identifiable individuals to the media.”
Virgin Trains declined to comment, although a spokesperson said releasing the CCTV was about setting the record straight after Corbyn made damaging claims about its service.
Updated
at 1.16pm BST
12.45pm BST
12:45
Martin Belam
We’ve just gone through Doncaster and I got momentarily disorientated because the Unipart rail depot has a London Overground carriage in being worked on. It’s the kind of thing you probably wouldn’t see under Corbyn’s railway policy.
His pledge is to take the railways back into state ownership and deliver a better and cheaper service. Launching the policy last month, he said:
Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people’s railway. It is only by bringing the railways back under public ownership as the contracts expire that we will fix the rail crisis.
12.42pm BST
12:42
Martin Belam
I’ve spoken to one member of the crew, who, perhaps understandably, was a little bit reluctant to go on the record. “You’ve seen what this train is like. It’s like this every day,” they said. The inference is clear. I really haven’t had any trouble finding a seat at all.
12.39pm BST
12:39
Angry Corbyn reminds Branson of rail nationalisation plans
Heather Stewart and Damien Gayle have this take on the latest developments in the Corbyn-Virgin row:
Jeremy Corbyn has reacted angrily after being repeatedly asked about his public row with Virgin Trains over his account of sitting on the floor of a “ram-packed” service – and reminded the company’s boss, Richard Branson, of his policy to renationalise the railways.
Corbyn faced numerous questions about the controversy at an event to launch Labour’s health policies in London on Wednesday.
He said: “I boarded a crowded train with a group of colleagues; we journeyed through the train looking for places; there wasn’t a place for all of us to sit down, and so for 40 minutes or so we remained on the floor of the train, in the vestibule,” he said, explaining that a sympathetic train manager later found him and his team, including his wife, a seat, by upgrading other passengers.
Asked again by a Sky journalist about what was rapidly dubbed #Traingate on Twitter, a tetchy Corbyn initially refused to answer, before saying he hoped Branson was aware of Labour’s policy of bringing train operating companies into the public realm.
Read the full story here:
Updated
at 12.46pm BST
12.27pm BST
12:27
Martin Belam
Adam and Adam, who were possibly winding me up about both being called Adam, are in coach B.
They use this route once every couple of weeks, because they live in London but work for a company that has an office in Newcastle. One of the Adams describes himself as a Labour supporter who likes Jeremy Corbyn. He’s definitely in favour of nationalisation. He says he’s worried that the press have drummed into people that Corbyn is unelectable, and that this has been really damaging to the Labour party.
They do have some horror stories of trains where the air-conditioning or heating has broken so that masses of people have to be bumped up to first class, or train crews have to give away free water to keep people hydrated. On more than one occasion, they say, they have had to do the London-Newcastle route sitting on the floor.
12.19pm BST
12:19
Martin Belam
I’ve just had a quick look at your below the line comments on my phone – over 700 already. I can’t really reply to them all on my phone but in general from what I’ve seen, I agree, it’s obviously not a way to find out the truth of what happened on the exact journey that Corbyn made but:
Seems like the ideal place to do this reporting is a train.
One those hundreds of comments came from Mickinthehouse, who has shared what it was like commuting between Leeds and Huddersfield.
I live in Leeds. Some years ago I worked in Huddersfield 20 odd miles away. I didn’t need a car at work so wanted to use the train. I used a local station that was the last stop on the line from York to Leeds. I then needed to change trains at Leeds. Frequently the train into Leeds was so full that I was unable to get on because the areas around the doors were full of passengers standing. It used to infuriate me that people would not move down the train so I and others could get on but the basis of the problem was no seats. Too frequently this caused me problems in terms of arriving at work on time and I reverted to driving. Train travel seems to me to be very expensive yet often overcrowded, uncomfortable and inefficient. France is a far bigger country with a similar population. My experience of using trains in France, a much bigger country, suggests they can run a far more effective better quality and cheaper service. Why is this?
12.12pm BST
12:12
Martin Belam
I just spoke to David who described himself as a Labour voter. He has some strong views on the train incident – describing it as “opportunist”. He says with all the money going into the Labour party it shows incompetence that the leader’s team couldn’t book two seats together in advance. He says before privatisation trains were overcrowded, dirty and unreliable and he wouldn’t want to go back to that.
12.05pm BST
12:05
The Guardian’s Peter Walker has tweeted his take on Traingate.
Before I try to forget about the whole sorry farrago forever, here's what I believe is most plausible set of facts on #traingate (1)
Firstly: it seems there were some free, unreserved seats which JC could have sat on. He & his team said there were no double seats left (2)
... and he wanted to sit with wife. My guess is they went down carriages seeking double seats, and spare seats filled up soon after (3)
JC was not only person who found it hard to find seats. There's strong evidence of others sitting in corridors. Virgin do not dispute it (4)
But it also seems this shortage was in part due to a/ initial chaos and b/ people not wanting to take reserved seats not yet sat in (5)
It seems most people were sat down after about 45 mins or so, after train staff did some shuffling round. Includes Corbyn & his team (6)
You can plausibly argue both JC & Virgin right – at some point there seemed to be no free seats, but train not 'ram-packed' for 3 hrs (7)
I've been on train which initially appear chaotic and pver-packed, but which calm down after a while as people shuffle about (8)
So, you can theoretically accept JC not guilty of fakery, while Virgin CCTV still shows what it purports to show (9)
Anything beyond that is, of course, up to people's interpretation/judgement/prejudices. Now let us never hear of #traingate again (10)
Updated
at 12.32pm BST
11.57am BST
11:57
Martin Belam
I’ve been talking to people in coach C. Susan is heading to Newcastle to visit her sister. She says she has been using this train for 25 years and has never once failed to get a seat. I ask her about nationalising the railways – she says it’s more important that the owner are British. She thinks Corbyn was doing a publicity stunt and she doesn’t have much time for him. She says the only time people are standing in the corridors is to stay by their luggage, not because of a lack of seats.
Also in coach C is Linda, who is taking her two sons, Robert and Jamie, to Newcastle. She says she always books 12 weeks in advance to get the best price. Susan, who is sitting at the same table, points out that not everybody has access to computers. There’s a long debate about how unnecessarily complicated ticketing is. It’s frustrating that different train companies have different rules, says Linda. But she adds: “I wouldn’t want to go back to British Rail.”
Mentish is on the train travelling for business. I plonked myself down next to him and interrupted him analysing a folder of documents. He says he doesn’t travel that regularly by train but would be in favour of stronger regulation. He wouldn’t support out-and-out nationalisation but would like to see more central control and “accountability” so that train companies are “held responsible for the promises they make”.
11.55am BST
11:55
Martin Belam
I’ve just had my ticket inspected. Without mentioning that I’m a journalist I try to get a conversation started: “Plenty of spare seats today...,” I say. “Aye, even enough for Mr Corbyn,” comes the reply.
And, just as a reminder, this is the footage that started it all: