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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/24/behind-traingate-we-retrace-corbyns-trip-to-see-reality-of-uk-rail-travel-live
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| Version 6 | Version 7 |
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| Virgin v Jeremy Corbyn: what rail passengers think of Traingate – live | Virgin v Jeremy Corbyn: what rail passengers think of Traingate – live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 3.09pm BST | |
| 15:09 | |
| Martin Belam | |
| I didn’t think to do this... | |
| Went up from York to Edinburgh on a Virgin East Coast Train today.When I boarded a smiled for the CCTV just in case Branson was watching 😏 | |
| 3.06pm BST | |
| 15:06 | |
| Martin Belam | |
| Huge thanks for your interest in this live blog, by the way. Obviously travelling to York on the 11am train today was never going to settle the truth about what happened on Jeremy Corbyn’s original trip, but it has been great to get over 3,000 comments talking about the state of UK railways and Corbyn’s policy about it. | |
| A selection of comments to give you the feel of discussion below the line... | |
| My guess is that with re-nationalisation, Corbyn had in mind the quality of the state-run French and German railways and not the crummy BR. I think people forget though the relative low price of tickets under BR. When Virgin got the franchise, the costs for the Manchester-London route went up massively. | |
| Some people see it as a stunt that has back-fired because Corbyn didn’t execute it well enough: | |
| Surely this is yet another case of Corbyn missing an open goal. If he really wanted to highlight the problems on the trains, why didn't he or one of his associates to use Southern's Brighton to London line. They'd be lucky to find somewhere to sit on the floor! | |
| Or that it is a proxy for the misery of supporting the Labour party at the moment | |
| The very worst thing about #traingate is that this is mostly Labour ripping apart Labour. I do think Corbyn is on weak ground and it does look like he sat on the floor principally to make a point, when he could clearly have sat. Reserved seats are only reserved between certain stations and not if the reservee fails to show, just as Corbyn's own seats on an earlier train would be valid for someone else to have sat in. So, clearly, Corbyn has used this to (clumsily) make a point about our railways. Arguably, right argument, wrong way to go about it. | |
| All said, personally, I'm not a great fan of Corbyn, but I can respect his mandate. If he is so bad, why not let his tenure run its natural course? The Tories had IDS, Hague, Howard...now it is Labour's turn. | |
| Or that the spin angle on the story is being used to distract from very real issues with the UK’s rail services | |
| I am disillusioned with Jeremy Corbyn, but the attempts to discredit him are a disgrace. He has a very good point about the utter shitness of train services in the UK. This is the real story here. I guess that it serves the establishment better to focus on whether or not traingate was spin, rather than confront this awkward reality & do something about it. Last week my Liverpool to Euston service had ONE working lavatory, the queue of people waiting to use it, including a heavily pregnant woman, was appalling. Seat availability and price hikes are phenomena that need to be addressed. | |
| 2.45pm BST | |
| 14:45 | |
| Martin Belam | |
| This is from Zoë White via GuardianWitness, who thinks trains are astronomically expensive, and the picture isn’t as rosy as train operators would like to make out. | |
| Overcrowded trains are a regular occurrence from London | |
| My boyfriend lives in London and travels every second Friday up to Scotland via Virgin East Coast to visit me. Although I never have a problem travelling TO London, 9 times out of 10 his journeys are on trains crammed full of passengers sitting on the floor of the isles and in vestibules so much so that if you do get a seat you can't get out of it for any reason during the journey. Trains from London definitely have an overcrowding issue - this doesn't apply to all days of the week or all routes but it's something that shouldn't be ignored by Virgin particularly when train travel is astronomically expensive and there's no deduction is price for overbooked trains. It's not right to charge people £135 to sit on the floor for a few hours. I 100% believe Jeremy Corbyn couldn't get a seat that day. | |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | |
| By Zoë White | |
| 24 August 2016, 13:08 | |
| 2.41pm BST | |
| 14:41 | |
| Martin Belam | |
| This comment from FridayWaits poses a good question about who has handled the situation worse... | |
| So in short Virgin have - | |
| a. Potentially broken data protection lawb. Shone a huge light on their shoddy servicec. Aggravated hundreds of thousands of very vocal Corbyn supporters that by demographic tend to be very active on social media. | |
| Someone in their PR department really is doing a bang up job. | |
| 2.27pm BST | 2.27pm BST |
| 14:27 | 14:27 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| Alex Howard has sent this about being a frequent traveller on the same route via our Guardian Witness assignment on this topic. Please feel free to contribute. | Alex Howard has sent this about being a frequent traveller on the same route via our Guardian Witness assignment on this topic. Please feel free to contribute. |
| A frequent passenger in York | A frequent passenger in York |
| I've lived in Leeds and York for the last three years but have family in the south, so I've been a frequent user of this service and can confirm that it's often pretty bad. If you're travelling in the middle of the day, in the week, and have pre-booked then it's usually fine, but lots of people aren't able to do all of those things. I've also been on this service mid-day during school holidays and had to sit on the floor (a very tired-looking woman with a child was sat in my reserved seat and I couldn't bring myself to tell her that her ticket was for a different train). Air conditioning has often been broken, no power to carriages for plug sockets, and I've been on services so disrupted that seat reservations have been discarded completely and it becomes a free-for-all. But this is all pretty standard stuff for train services across the country, I don't think it's anything special about Virgin Trains. | I've lived in Leeds and York for the last three years but have family in the south, so I've been a frequent user of this service and can confirm that it's often pretty bad. If you're travelling in the middle of the day, in the week, and have pre-booked then it's usually fine, but lots of people aren't able to do all of those things. I've also been on this service mid-day during school holidays and had to sit on the floor (a very tired-looking woman with a child was sat in my reserved seat and I couldn't bring myself to tell her that her ticket was for a different train). Air conditioning has often been broken, no power to carriages for plug sockets, and I've been on services so disrupted that seat reservations have been discarded completely and it becomes a free-for-all. But this is all pretty standard stuff for train services across the country, I don't think it's anything special about Virgin Trains. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By AlexHoward | By AlexHoward |
| 24 August 2016, 12:57 | 24 August 2016, 12:57 |
| 2.18pm BST | 2.18pm BST |
| 14:18 | 14:18 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| Worth noting from the comments below this open question: “Any word on here about Virgin being open to prosecution with their hastily cobbled together CCTV footage being a breach of the Data Protection Act?” | Worth noting from the comments below this open question: “Any word on here about Virgin being open to prosecution with their hastily cobbled together CCTV footage being a breach of the Data Protection Act?” |
| Yes, there is. | Yes, there is. |
| 2.09pm BST | 2.09pm BST |
| 14:09 | 14:09 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| If you are reading this live blog, it suggests you probably have strong opinions about #Traingate. Or maybe about live blogs. YouGov are currently carrying out a survey asking people what they think about the train story. Don’t tell them we sent you. | If you are reading this live blog, it suggests you probably have strong opinions about #Traingate. Or maybe about live blogs. YouGov are currently carrying out a survey asking people what they think about the train story. Don’t tell them we sent you. |
| 1.58pm BST | 1.58pm BST |
| 13:58 | 13:58 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| ID0993227 makes a very good point about whether Corbyn could have reserved the cheapest seats in advance for that day. Referring to Linda who I spoke to earlier, they say: | ID0993227 makes a very good point about whether Corbyn could have reserved the cheapest seats in advance for that day. Referring to Linda who I spoke to earlier, they say: |
| “The lady on the train said she reserves her seats 12 weeks in advance. Corbyn was going to the leadership hustings in Gateshead, which he couldn’t have known about 12 weeks in advance - no one could have.” | “The lady on the train said she reserves her seats 12 weeks in advance. Corbyn was going to the leadership hustings in Gateshead, which he couldn’t have known about 12 weeks in advance - no one could have.” |
| 1.54pm BST | 1.54pm BST |
| 13:54 | 13:54 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| On rail privatisation, in the comments Fergus Patterson makes this point: | On rail privatisation, in the comments Fergus Patterson makes this point: |
| Network Rail is already “state owned” and much of the farce of rail travel is due to the poor condition of the rail infrastructure. What is needed is greater regulation of the TOC’s with rules on investment, proper control of ticketing etc.... the LAST thing we need is a return to British Rail and the lamentable service we endured pre-privatisation. If the DoT can’t invest properly in the points, signals, tracks etc... why would they be any better at investing in the rolling stock? | Network Rail is already “state owned” and much of the farce of rail travel is due to the poor condition of the rail infrastructure. What is needed is greater regulation of the TOC’s with rules on investment, proper control of ticketing etc.... the LAST thing we need is a return to British Rail and the lamentable service we endured pre-privatisation. If the DoT can’t invest properly in the points, signals, tracks etc... why would they be any better at investing in the rolling stock? |
| Earlier in the year the government published the Shaw report into the future shape and financing of Network Rail. It will be interesting to see how many of the recommendations are taken on by the new administration. | Earlier in the year the government published the Shaw report into the future shape and financing of Network Rail. It will be interesting to see how many of the recommendations are taken on by the new administration. |
| 1.32pm BST | 1.32pm BST |
| 13:32 | 13:32 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| Of course, the important thing isn’t really about seeing whether I got a seat today, or trying to unpick the timestamps on the CCTV pictures that Virgin released to try and pin down the exact timeline of Jeremy Corbyn’s journey. The important thing is to use that as an opportunity to see how we manage train services in the UK. | Of course, the important thing isn’t really about seeing whether I got a seat today, or trying to unpick the timestamps on the CCTV pictures that Virgin released to try and pin down the exact timeline of Jeremy Corbyn’s journey. The important thing is to use that as an opportunity to see how we manage train services in the UK. |
| TUC research shows ticket price rises are far outstripping pay rises, and commuters are understandably disgruntled with the service they receive. One regular on part of the route I took today messaged me earlier. Joanne Wagstaffe says: “I pay £7,992 for an annual season ticket. We moved to Peterborough to buy a house, as London is too expensive. I have to book my seat 3 months in advance. Sometimes there are no seats available. Sometimes they are double booked. If there is a cancellation of the train 20 mins before mine in the morning, then it is chaos.” | TUC research shows ticket price rises are far outstripping pay rises, and commuters are understandably disgruntled with the service they receive. One regular on part of the route I took today messaged me earlier. Joanne Wagstaffe says: “I pay £7,992 for an annual season ticket. We moved to Peterborough to buy a house, as London is too expensive. I have to book my seat 3 months in advance. Sometimes there are no seats available. Sometimes they are double booked. If there is a cancellation of the train 20 mins before mine in the morning, then it is chaos.” |
| 1.30pm BST | 1.30pm BST |
| 13:30 | 13:30 |
| Here are two contributions on GuardianWitness: | Here are two contributions on GuardianWitness: |
| Regular traveller KGX to NEWCASTLE | Regular traveller KGX to NEWCASTLE |
| I am a regular user of the Newcastle to King's Cross service - as a Geordie based in London and now Cambridge I have been taking this train regularly for the past 8 years. | I am a regular user of the Newcastle to King's Cross service - as a Geordie based in London and now Cambridge I have been taking this train regularly for the past 8 years. |
| Often, because of work demands I can only book an open-return for these journeys. I very regularly fail to get a seat on this service, have seen families taking turns sitting in the only seat available to them - often with children placed on laps for the 3 hour journey. There are regular mishaps with the reservations, such as seats not being labelled as reserved when they have indeed been reserved. | Often, because of work demands I can only book an open-return for these journeys. I very regularly fail to get a seat on this service, have seen families taking turns sitting in the only seat available to them - often with children placed on laps for the 3 hour journey. There are regular mishaps with the reservations, such as seats not being labelled as reserved when they have indeed been reserved. |
| Seeing someone stooped in a corner on the floor reading a book or their work notes is an all too familiar situation for passengers on this service. | Seeing someone stooped in a corner on the floor reading a book or their work notes is an all too familiar situation for passengers on this service. |
| What I find particularly hilarious is that Virgin, presumably because Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, offered him a complimentary upgrade to first class. When I have been in that situation they have offered me an upgrade on the odd occasion, but usually for an extra 25 quid or so. | What I find particularly hilarious is that Virgin, presumably because Corbyn is the leader of the opposition, offered him a complimentary upgrade to first class. When I have been in that situation they have offered me an upgrade on the odd occasion, but usually for an extra 25 quid or so. |
| Virgin, a bit like Southern, are fleecing their customers to line their shareholders' pockets. | Virgin, a bit like Southern, are fleecing their customers to line their shareholders' pockets. |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By Jonathan Wilson | By Jonathan Wilson |
| 24 August 2016, 12:12 | 24 August 2016, 12:12 |
| Train journeys | Train journeys |
| Regardless of whether Corbyn should have sat in a reserved seat or not; as a frequent train traveller, it seems to me the point has been lost in the attempts to discredit him. Trains in the UK are a disgrace and not being able to find a seat IS a very common occurrence for a lot of people. With prices inflated as much as they are, surely that's the story and not Corbyn? | Regardless of whether Corbyn should have sat in a reserved seat or not; as a frequent train traveller, it seems to me the point has been lost in the attempts to discredit him. Trains in the UK are a disgrace and not being able to find a seat IS a very common occurrence for a lot of people. With prices inflated as much as they are, surely that's the story and not Corbyn? |
| Sent via Guardian Witness | Sent via Guardian Witness |
| By Lembo59 | By Lembo59 |
| 24 August 2016, 11:35 | 24 August 2016, 11:35 |
| If you want to share your views, click on the blue button. | If you want to share your views, click on the blue button. |
| 1.25pm BST | 1.25pm BST |
| 13:25 | 13:25 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| Huge thanks to Fran Lawther who has been in charge of updating the live blog while I was filing via my phone during the journey. I was pleasantly surprised to find I had signal for most of the way. I’ve now got myself a place with wifi near the station - and I’ll be picking up some of the points you’ve made BTL and via Guardian Witness. | Huge thanks to Fran Lawther who has been in charge of updating the live blog while I was filing via my phone during the journey. I was pleasantly surprised to find I had signal for most of the way. I’ve now got myself a place with wifi near the station - and I’ll be picking up some of the points you’ve made BTL and via Guardian Witness. |
| 1.15pm BST | 1.15pm BST |
| 13:15 | 13:15 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| We’ve arrived in York, which is looking absolutely gorgeous in the sunshine. The train was on time and there were plenty of seats – even with the number of journalists onboard pestering people for their opinions about UK rail. | We’ve arrived in York, which is looking absolutely gorgeous in the sunshine. The train was on time and there were plenty of seats – even with the number of journalists onboard pestering people for their opinions about UK rail. |
| 1.10pm BST | 1.10pm BST |
| 13:10 | 13:10 |
| Martin Belam | Martin Belam |
| I’ve spoken to Sef who feels the service on the east coast mainline has deteriorated rapidly. | I’ve spoken to Sef who feels the service on the east coast mainline has deteriorated rapidly. |
| There seems to be this dogma that everything that is privatised has to work better. Well, it works better for the shareholders. | There seems to be this dogma that everything that is privatised has to work better. Well, it works better for the shareholders. |
| He cites two broken toilets on this train that have forced him to walk further through the carriages. He says it is really important for people to realise how the service has been diminished by the new franchise. | He cites two broken toilets on this train that have forced him to walk further through the carriages. He says it is really important for people to realise how the service has been diminished by the new franchise. |
| 1.07pm BST | 1.07pm BST |
| 13:07 | 13:07 |
| Owen Smith is not the only Labour MP to have weighed into the party leader’s transport row. | Owen Smith is not the only Labour MP to have weighed into the party leader’s transport row. |
| I wonder how Jeremy will spin his way out of this one. #traingate | I wonder how Jeremy will spin his way out of this one. #traingate |
| Good spot! https://t.co/aMKcwaDkbL | Good spot! https://t.co/aMKcwaDkbL |
| I don't care about #traingate tbh. If you think JC campaign don't spin you are kidding yourselves. Straight talking honest politics is a lie | I don't care about #traingate tbh. If you think JC campaign don't spin you are kidding yourselves. Straight talking honest politics is a lie |
| Perhaps It was the Hogwarts Express. And all the children were wearing invisibility cloaks. | Perhaps It was the Hogwarts Express. And all the children were wearing invisibility cloaks. |
| Reminds of JC denying he'd called for #Article50 invocation but had. Virgin challenges Jeremy Corbyn train footagehttps://t.co/uwB5xoenYg | Reminds of JC denying he'd called for #Article50 invocation but had. Virgin challenges Jeremy Corbyn train footagehttps://t.co/uwB5xoenYg |
| However, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell focus on the party’s NHS push. | However, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell focus on the party’s NHS push. |
| With @jeremycorbyn & fantastic #nhs activists Dr Rishi and Nurse Danielle. At UCLU launching Jeremy's Health Policy. pic.twitter.com/hFMefihdcV | With @jeremycorbyn & fantastic #nhs activists Dr Rishi and Nurse Danielle. At UCLU launching Jeremy's Health Policy. pic.twitter.com/hFMefihdcV |
| Labour's Shadow Health Secretary @HackneyAbbott and @jeremycorbyn pledge to renationalise the NHS. https://t.co/C3l98kCt5j | Labour's Shadow Health Secretary @HackneyAbbott and @jeremycorbyn pledge to renationalise the NHS. https://t.co/C3l98kCt5j |