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Fiery scenes as solicitor general faces senators in Brandis row – politics live Law professors condemn 'hectoring' of solicitor general by Ian Macdonald – politics live
(35 minutes later)
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The chair Louise Pratt notes the hearing is running over time and Brandis will have to be told he will appear 30 minutes later. Gleeson takes issue with questions from Labor too. He doesn’t want to give “evaluative assessment” of the matter.
2.08am BST Watt asks if Brandis’s statement to parliament that he had consulted Gleeson in their 30 November 2015 meeting was correct?
02:08 Gleeson says he doesn’t want to answer due to the controversy.
Reynolds asserts that the SG is subject to the caretaker provisions. Gleeson tells the committee he asked the secretary and deputy secretary of AG’s department why he wasn’t consulted but notes that he did not “understand” their reasons.
Gleeson asks: is that an question or an answer? He said he was told by the deputy secretary that if there was to be consultation it was to be between the AG and and the SG.
Reynolds: please let me finish answering the question? It never occurred.
Watt: so you are answering a question? Essentially Gleeson says he was told by the secretary and the deputy secretary that it was up to the AG to consult with the SG.
Gleeson says his primary duty is to the statute and to be impartial during the caretaker period before the election. He says there has never been a time in history where an AG has made a statement to parliament the SG believes is inaccurate and then the parliament is dissolved.
He is trying to outline the history and the complexities.
Reynolds: Oh please.
Macdonald suggests if Gleeson wants to get into politics he should run for parliament.
Gleeson asks for his statement to be withdrawn as it was offensive.
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In other news: Gleeson says he heard about the new direction on 4 May 2016, after it was issued on the same day. He wrote on 24 May to the secretary of the AG’s department stating he disagreed because broadly:
Before the Trump haters get too excited, some of his views are OTT but cutting tax and boosting defence are classic conservatism
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From AAP:
Prime minister Malcolm Turnbull is confident the stoush between the attorney-general and the solicitor-general will be resolved eventually.As a Senate committee began an inquiry hearing into the public dispute between George Brandis and Justin Gleeson over controversial new legal advice rules, Mr Turnbull stressed the two were a team.“They support each other,” he told reporters in Canberra on Friday.“I am sure whatever differences or misunderstandings will be resolved.”Turnbull said it was important to remember the attorney general was the first law officer whom even he would turn to for advice in the first place.It was always appropriate for a prime minister to consult with the attorney general about seeking counsel from the second law officer.“It is inconceivable that the attorney general would say ‘No, I don’t want you to seek the advice of the solicitor general’,” Turnbull said.
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Gleeson said what he told Dreyfus was a question of fact (that he had not been consulted by Brandis on the direction) and a question of opinion (that he did not agree with it).
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Gleeson goes through it again with Reynolds.
He says on May 6, a statement [by Brandis] was made to the parliament that was inaccurate.
He says only two people knew that was inaccurate. [Gleeson and Brandis]
He had to comply with the law of Australia.
Gleeson said he was asked by Dreyfus two questions which he considered it was lawful to answer.
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Gleeson counters, saying he had written to the AG to say his statement was not accurate.
Gleeson considered as Dreyfus was a member of the 44th parliament to which the Brandis statement had been made, he was able to answer the two questions Dreyfus had asked.
Reynolds wants to know under which rules he could talk to an opposition member.
Gleeson he sent the full account to the secretary of the AG’s department. He quotes the section of the act.
Reynolds wants to question further but Gleeson asks her not to interrupt his answer.
The Liberal members accuse the chair of stopping them asking questions.
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Liberal senator Linda Reynolds has been sent in to ask about the Dreyfus-Gleeson conversation. She points out it was in the caretaker mode in June, ahead of the election. Gareth Hutchens
1.47am BST Over at the House of Representatives’ standing committee on economics, officials from the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority are being interrogated.
01:47 Wayne Byres, Apra’s chairman, told the committee how difficult it was to attract and keep talent with the wages Apra can afford to pay.
Back to Labor now and Murray Watt asks about a meeting between Gleeson and Brandis. This goes to a difference on the citizenship bill that precipitated the present stoush. He said people often come to work for the regulator for the experience, but leave for jobs in the private sector where wages are much higher.
Gleeson gave an opinion on the citizenship bill in a draft form. He said Apra tries to benchmark its pay to the 25th percentile of the average pay in the financial system, then make up the difference with a range of other benefits, including work-life balance.
Brandis subsequently used that opinion about the bill in parliament. But it still loses more than 90% of its people to the private system.
Gleeson said that advice referred to an earlier draft. He said the government did provide Apra with extra funding in the last budget to help it improve its data system and analytical capacity, but the problem of wages remains.
They held a meeting to work out the difference and how it might not happen again.
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It is extraordinary how abusive Ian Macdonald has been to Justin Gleeson. Gleeson is not taking a backwards step but it is extraordinary behaviour from a government senator, presumably workshopped and prepped on behalf of his party.
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Macdonald asks if it is appropriate to speak to anyone other than his client (being the AG). Professor of international law, Sydney Uni:
Gleeson says on the matter of the regulation, he is representing the commonwealth. Sen Ian Macdonald suggests advice of Commonwealth Solicitors-General is not 'real law' #BrandisGleeson #auslaw #auspol
Macdonald then asks he if knows how Financial Review journalist Laura Tingle wrote a “very informative article” about this matter. 2.30am BST
Gleeson says no. 02:30
Gleeson goes to the meeting of 30 November last year between Brandis and Gleeson.
He says there was no talk of a new legal services direction at that meeting and he says he would have told him he did not think it was a lawful direction.
Gleeson says if he had been told Brandis was considering a new direction and what was going to be in it, the matter would have developed very differently.
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Professors of law coming out to decry Gleeson’s treatment in the committee:
Shameful hectoring of the SG by Senator MacDonald #BrandisGleeson
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Again thanks to Matt from the ABC:
Solicitor-General Justin Gleeson on his concerns for his office's independence#BrandisGleeson @abcnews pic.twitter.com/zTvJbUq2SQ
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Thanks to Matt for this explosive interchange:
And another one...#BrandisGleeson @abcnews pic.twitter.com/9MTgIysAPd
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This is from Justin Gleeson earlier and summarises his position on this matter:
It is a radical change in the practice whereby a solicitor general can do nothing, cannot even speak to a lawyer, until he has received a brief with a signed consent. Do I lie awake at night worrying about it? I have every night since 5 May, trying to determine how this could have come about and what is the correct way to try and respond to and remedy this situation.
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Just re the argument with Reynolds over the caretaker conventions for statutory authorities such as the SG.
This is from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet:
1.6 The conventions and practices have developed primarily in the context of the relationship between ministers* and their departments (and, by extension since the commencement of the Public Service Act 1999, executive agencies). The relationship between ministers and other bodies, such as statutory authorities and government companies, varies from body to body. However, those bodies should observe the conventions and practices unless to do so would conflict with their legal obligations or compelling organisational requirements.
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SG Gleeson on why he called the November 30 meeting with AG Brandis.#BrandisGleeson @abcnews pic.twitter.com/UCD9SGNDvT
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Some LNP Senators need schooling in the basics of Australia's constitutional system #BrandisGleeson #auspol #auslaw
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The chair, Louise Pratt, notes the hearing is running over time and Brandis will have to be told he will appear 30 minutes later.
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