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You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2017/oct/27/politics-live-high-court-citizenship-joyce
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| Version 3 | Version 4 |
|---|---|
| AFP won't hand over seized AWU documents until after December – politics live | AFP won't hand over seized AWU documents until after December – politics live |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 1.57am BST | |
| 01:57 | |
| Kerri Hartland from the employment department says Michaelia Cash’s staffer’s equipment had been secured. | |
| Cameron then asks what the ROC has done. | |
| “The ROC hasn’t taken steps,” Bielecki says. | |
| Brandis interrupts to say accuse Cameron of “assuming that an employee of the Registered Organisations Commission is going to break the law”. | |
| “You are in no position to say I am assuming that,” Cameron returns. “You are coming here, saying that we can’t ask even questions on this, and yet you seem quite calm that documentation, computers, telephones are unsecured in the office of ROC.” | |
| Brandis: The point I am making to you, is to interfere with, or delete, or destroy any relevant record would itself be unlawful. Your questions assume that employees of the Australian government are people who will break the law, you have no basis for that assumption. | |
| Cameron points out that “ministerial staff have engaged in egregious breaches of the law”. | |
| Brandis says ROC is not a political body | |
| “So I just make the point to you, by saying there is something untoward by saying the steps you need to be taken, not being taken, must assume there is a risk of employees of the ROC will commit a crime. You have no basis for that assumption.” | |
| Cameron asks whether Bielecki will take steps to secure the equipment and documents. He says it will co-operate with the AFP investigation. | |
| Executive director of the ROC Mark Enright says he has taken steps “to the extent that they are possible at this stage” to ensure the “physical location of the equipment” and staff have been spoken to “set out the protocols”. | |
| “We are employees of the public service, we adhere to the code of conduct very stringently.” | |
| “As an absolute minimum, no staff in my agency would delete an email that may even be relevant. They are staff who are committed to the code of conduct, they understand what is going on in these proceedings and I am entirely confident of that.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.59am BST | |
| 1.42am BST | |
| 01:42 | |
| Pat Dodson spoke to the ABC this morning about the government decision to reject the the proposal for a constitutionally enshrined voice in parliament for indigenous people | |
| It wasn’t honourable because they didn’t discuss any of this with their own advisory committee. They didn’t discuss it with any of the Indigenous leadership. | |
| They certainly didn’t discuss this with the opposition before they allowed a leak or a leak took place – and we wouldn’t even be having the discussion if the leak hadn’t taken place. | |
| So there is nothing honourable about what’s happened here. And certainly to then come back and say they made a judgement that a proposition that has been put by the First Nation’s people would not pass the referendum test: now who knows that? | |
| We’ve just spent $122m surveying people on the question of same-sex marriage. Now that’s a good thing to do and it’s a necessary thing to do. | |
| We could have taken the same approach here. There are innovative ways to deal with the complexities surrounding the question of entrenching a voice. | |
| And I think to foreclose on that, having spent a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of energy gone into this and to just simply reject it because the conservative element within the party of Mr Turnbull has rejected it. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.46am BST | |
| 1.39am BST | |
| 01:39 | |
| Doug Cameron is pushing back and asking questions, again, and says: “This is a political issue, not a national security issue”. | |
| Cameron: Is the government acting to stop the destruction or concealment of documents or any evidence by the minister’s office or the Fair Work Ombudsman that is relevant to this investigation? Senator Cash couldn’t assure the committee that this had occurred. If I have a reasonable belief that it could occur, presumably there will now be a bank of TV cameras out front of the minister’s office awaiting the arrival of the AFP. | |
| George Brandis: Senator, this the subject as we now know of a police investigation. To destroy material relevant to a current police investigation would itself be against the law. I have absolute confidence that both the minister, her staff and her department will be obedient to the law and I should remind you Senator Cameron that the minister is herself a lawyer, so she understands these principles perfectly well. | |
| Cameron: I also asked about the Fair Work Ombudsman | |
| Brandis: I think you may as well take it Senator Cameron that all agencies of the Commonwealth of Australia and its employees are obedient to the law. | |
| The head of the Registered Organisations Committee, Mark Bielecki, is asked whether he has taken any steps to secure any potential evidence. He says he has not. Cameron says he can not believe it. | |
| Updated | |
| at 1.45am BST | |
| 1.27am BST | 1.27am BST |
| 01:27 | 01:27 |
| Here are the letters which George Brandis have just tabled pic.twitter.com/IlqFsh0dWl | Here are the letters which George Brandis have just tabled pic.twitter.com/IlqFsh0dWl |
| 1.25am BST | 1.25am BST |
| 01:25 | 01:25 |
| The committee is back and Labor are still fighting to be able to ask questions about the leaks. | The committee is back and Labor are still fighting to be able to ask questions about the leaks. |
| This is what Brandis is relying on to say he (and the ROC) can't answer any questions on the raid. pic.twitter.com/POciqMeADe | This is what Brandis is relying on to say he (and the ROC) can't answer any questions on the raid. pic.twitter.com/POciqMeADe |
| 1.22am BST | 1.22am BST |
| 01:22 | 01:22 |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.27am BST | at 1.27am BST |
| 1.19am BST | 1.19am BST |
| 01:19 | 01:19 |
| Calla Wahlquist | Calla Wahlquist |
| In another estimates committee, Nigel Scullion, the Indigenous affairs minister, who was eviscerated by Patricia Karvelas on RN Drive last night for the government’s decision to categorically rule out a referendum on enshrining an Indigenous voice to parliament in the constitution, has been squaring up against senators Pat Dodson, Malarndirri McCarthy, and Rachel Siewert. | In another estimates committee, Nigel Scullion, the Indigenous affairs minister, who was eviscerated by Patricia Karvelas on RN Drive last night for the government’s decision to categorically rule out a referendum on enshrining an Indigenous voice to parliament in the constitution, has been squaring up against senators Pat Dodson, Malarndirri McCarthy, and Rachel Siewert. |
| Scullion has suggested that the Referendum Council, which was commissioned by Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten to consult on the idea of Indigenous constitutional recognition, failed by not speaking to non-Indigenous people. | Scullion has suggested that the Referendum Council, which was commissioned by Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten to consult on the idea of Indigenous constitutional recognition, failed by not speaking to non-Indigenous people. |
| He said: | He said: |
| The task for the referendum council was to talk to Australia, to consult with Australia, and I think the Referendum Council’s view was that was speaking to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Speaking to 3% of the population when you are actually trying to deal with a national issue was part of the fail. | The task for the referendum council was to talk to Australia, to consult with Australia, and I think the Referendum Council’s view was that was speaking to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Speaking to 3% of the population when you are actually trying to deal with a national issue was part of the fail. |
| There was very little work down with the mainstream, non-Indigenous part of the community. I’m not arguing whether it should or shouldn’t have been.” | There was very little work down with the mainstream, non-Indigenous part of the community. I’m not arguing whether it should or shouldn’t have been.” |
| This is the first time I have heard anyone suggest that the Referendum Council was supposed to talk to non-Indigenous people, as well as Aborigiinal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. In fact it was celebrated as the first active consultation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples commissioned in more than 10 years of discussion of Indigenous recognition. | This is the first time I have heard anyone suggest that the Referendum Council was supposed to talk to non-Indigenous people, as well as Aborigiinal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. In fact it was celebrated as the first active consultation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples commissioned in more than 10 years of discussion of Indigenous recognition. |
| The first term of reference for the Referendum Council states: | The first term of reference for the Referendum Council states: |
| “The Council will lead the process for national consultations and community engagement about constitutional recognition, including a concurrent series of Indigenous designed and led consultations.” | “The Council will lead the process for national consultations and community engagement about constitutional recognition, including a concurrent series of Indigenous designed and led consultations.” |
| The grilling continues. | The grilling continues. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.26am BST | at 1.26am BST |
| 1.11am BST | 1.11am BST |
| 01:11 | 01:11 |
| The Australian federal police advised by email they would be carrying out an investigation into the leak of the raids at 7.05pm last night. The email was sent to Michaelia Cash’s office. It was shown to George Brandis “earlier this morning” | The Australian federal police advised by email they would be carrying out an investigation into the leak of the raids at 7.05pm last night. The email was sent to Michaelia Cash’s office. It was shown to George Brandis “earlier this morning” |
| Brandis says he was “made aware of this hearing sometime yesterday and I was told that Senator Cash had a long standing commitment in Perth ... I think about lunchtime ... and because I was in Canberra today for an unrelated reason, I volunteered [to attend in her place]. | Brandis says he was “made aware of this hearing sometime yesterday and I was told that Senator Cash had a long standing commitment in Perth ... I think about lunchtime ... and because I was in Canberra today for an unrelated reason, I volunteered [to attend in her place]. |
| Labor is attempting to ascertain when Brandis learnt about the AFP investigation, given he has just sprung the public interest immunity move on them. | Labor is attempting to ascertain when Brandis learnt about the AFP investigation, given he has just sprung the public interest immunity move on them. |
| The committee is suspended again to discuss how to move forward, now that Brandis has outlined what he will be claiming public interest immunity on. | The committee is suspended again to discuss how to move forward, now that Brandis has outlined what he will be claiming public interest immunity on. |
| We are working on getting a copy of the letter which was tabled, but remember, it is redacted. | We are working on getting a copy of the letter which was tabled, but remember, it is redacted. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.25am BST | at 1.25am BST |
| 1.06am BST | 1.06am BST |
| 01:06 | 01:06 |
| The committee is now going on break to read George Brandis’s letter where he outlines what matters he believes applies to public interest immunity. | The committee is now going on break to read George Brandis’s letter where he outlines what matters he believes applies to public interest immunity. |
| 1.06am BST | 1.06am BST |
| 01:06 | 01:06 |
| Doug Cameron is asking George Brandis when he made the decision to invoke public interest immunity of the ROC matter. He says this morning. | Doug Cameron is asking George Brandis when he made the decision to invoke public interest immunity of the ROC matter. He says this morning. |
| 1.04am BST | 1.04am BST |
| 01:04 | 01:04 |
| Just quickly, Samantha Maiden from Sky has reported she understands the government is preparing to make changes to the citizenship laws, for future MPs, to stop foreign countries from conferring citizenship upon Australians without their consent. | Just quickly, Samantha Maiden from Sky has reported she understands the government is preparing to make changes to the citizenship laws, for future MPs, to stop foreign countries from conferring citizenship upon Australians without their consent. |
| Interesting to see how that would work. | Interesting to see how that would work. |
| .@samanthamaiden: The government is preparing changes to the Citizenship Act in the wake of the High Court case. https://t.co/OCHHCPsLUp pic.twitter.com/Or9dC9RpSb | .@samanthamaiden: The government is preparing changes to the Citizenship Act in the wake of the High Court case. https://t.co/OCHHCPsLUp pic.twitter.com/Or9dC9RpSb |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.13am BST | at 1.13am BST |
| 1.03am BST | 1.03am BST |
| 01:03 | 01:03 |
| The committee is about to come back from break – anyone wanting to follow along should be able to find the link – here | The committee is about to come back from break – anyone wanting to follow along should be able to find the link – here |
| 12.55am BST | 12.55am BST |
| 00:55 | 00:55 |
| The employment committee has gone on its morning tea break. | The employment committee has gone on its morning tea break. |
| It’s around this time the letter George Brandis has flagged, outlining what he plans to invoke public interest immunity on, will be tabled. | It’s around this time the letter George Brandis has flagged, outlining what he plans to invoke public interest immunity on, will be tabled. |
| 12.54am BST | 12.54am BST |
| 00:54 | 00:54 |
| If necessary, the soonest a byelection in New England could be held is 2 December. That’s not in time for the next session of parliament which is scheduled for 27 November. That plays havoc with the government’s one-seat majority, but Indi MP Cathy McGowan has said she will support the government in confidence motions. The Speaker also has a vote in cases where the vote is tied. | If necessary, the soonest a byelection in New England could be held is 2 December. That’s not in time for the next session of parliament which is scheduled for 27 November. That plays havoc with the government’s one-seat majority, but Indi MP Cathy McGowan has said she will support the government in confidence motions. The Speaker also has a vote in cases where the vote is tied. |
| From speaking to those in the government I get the feeling that now they are just waiting to see what switch they need to flick. They seem as keen to get this decision over and done with as you do. | From speaking to those in the government I get the feeling that now they are just waiting to see what switch they need to flick. They seem as keen to get this decision over and done with as you do. |
| As for what happens with the senators, those next in line seem ready to pick up the mantle, including Hollie Hughes (next in line for Nash) and Joanna Lindgren (next in line for Canavan). | As for what happens with the senators, those next in line seem ready to pick up the mantle, including Hollie Hughes (next in line for Nash) and Joanna Lindgren (next in line for Canavan). |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.23am BST | at 1.23am BST |
| 12.45am BST | 12.45am BST |
| 00:45 | 00:45 |
| Time is ticking closer to the high court decision. | Time is ticking closer to the high court decision. |
| For those needing a refresher, Paul Karp and Katharine Murphy have put together a nice story here , which includes the context of the week that was: | For those needing a refresher, Paul Karp and Katharine Murphy have put together a nice story here , which includes the context of the week that was: |
| The controversy over Cash came as nervousness within the Coalition increased ahead of the high court ruling. | The controversy over Cash came as nervousness within the Coalition increased ahead of the high court ruling. |
| The “citizenship seven” are: deputy prime minister Barnaby Joyce; deputy Nationals leader Fiona Nash; former resources and Northern Australia minister Matt Canavan; One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts; senator Nick Xenophon and former Greens senators Larissa Waters and Scott Ludlam. | The “citizenship seven” are: deputy prime minister Barnaby Joyce; deputy Nationals leader Fiona Nash; former resources and Northern Australia minister Matt Canavan; One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts; senator Nick Xenophon and former Greens senators Larissa Waters and Scott Ludlam. |
| Joyce will face a byelection in New England if found ineligible, while senators will be replaced by a recount likely to return the next candidate on their parties’ 2016 Senate ticket. | Joyce will face a byelection in New England if found ineligible, while senators will be replaced by a recount likely to return the next candidate on their parties’ 2016 Senate ticket. |
| If Joyce is found ineligible, the Turnbull government will have 75 lower house seats, making it more likely to lose house votes unless the Coalition retains Joyce’s seat against a likely run by former independent MP Tony Windsor. | If Joyce is found ineligible, the Turnbull government will have 75 lower house seats, making it more likely to lose house votes unless the Coalition retains Joyce’s seat against a likely run by former independent MP Tony Windsor. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.22am BST | at 1.22am BST |
| 12.41am BST | 12.41am BST |
| 00:41 | 00:41 |
| AFP won't hand over seized AWU documents until after December | AFP won't hand over seized AWU documents until after December |
| The court timetable means the AFP won’t hand over any of the documents it seized during the raids to the Registered Organisations Commission until after the court has heard the case. | The court timetable means the AFP won’t hand over any of the documents it seized during the raids to the Registered Organisations Commission until after the court has heard the case. |
| The ROC has until 1 December to file their defence. That doesn’t leave a lot of time for the federal court to hear the case, because they usually go on Christmas break. So expect this to go on for a while. | The ROC has until 1 December to file their defence. That doesn’t leave a lot of time for the federal court to hear the case, because they usually go on Christmas break. So expect this to go on for a while. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.21am BST | at 1.21am BST |
| 12.37am BST | 12.37am BST |
| 00:37 | 00:37 |
| The court hearing, which was to set further directions on the AWU’s challenge of the validity of the raids on its office, has been cancelled. It was deemed not necessary as the parties both agreed on a timetable themselves. | The court hearing, which was to set further directions on the AWU’s challenge of the validity of the raids on its office, has been cancelled. It was deemed not necessary as the parties both agreed on a timetable themselves. |
| Maurice Blackburn, which is representing the AWU; just released this statement: | Maurice Blackburn, which is representing the AWU; just released this statement: |
| A court timetable has been set in the AWU’s fight to challenge the validity of this week’s unprecedented police raids launched by the Registered Organisations Commission (ROC) on the union’s Sydney and Melbourne offices. | A court timetable has been set in the AWU’s fight to challenge the validity of this week’s unprecedented police raids launched by the Registered Organisations Commission (ROC) on the union’s Sydney and Melbourne offices. |
| Maurice Blackburn Lawyers, who are representing the AWU, said today that court orders confirming a timetable for the case had been agreed to by all parties, removing the need for a federal court directions hearing that had been scheduled for this morning in Melbourne. | Maurice Blackburn Lawyers, who are representing the AWU, said today that court orders confirming a timetable for the case had been agreed to by all parties, removing the need for a federal court directions hearing that had been scheduled for this morning in Melbourne. |
| Maurice Blackburn Principal Josh Bornstein said critically that the orders were made together with commitments from both the ROC and AFP that no documents seized in this week’s raids by the AFP will be handed over to the ROC until the court has heard the case. | Maurice Blackburn Principal Josh Bornstein said critically that the orders were made together with commitments from both the ROC and AFP that no documents seized in this week’s raids by the AFP will be handed over to the ROC until the court has heard the case. |
| Mr Bornstein said the union’s case compromised two key parts, namely:· That the raid conducted by the AFP was illegal; and· That the investigation by the ROC is illegal because it is politically motivated. | Mr Bornstein said the union’s case compromised two key parts, namely:· That the raid conducted by the AFP was illegal; and· That the investigation by the ROC is illegal because it is politically motivated. |
| Prior to these raids, the union had handed over disclosure statements from 10 years ago in relation to Get Up donations to the ROC, but in doing so had pressed the regulator to provide it with information about the political interference by the Turnbull government in this matter. | Prior to these raids, the union had handed over disclosure statements from 10 years ago in relation to Get Up donations to the ROC, but in doing so had pressed the regulator to provide it with information about the political interference by the Turnbull government in this matter. |
| Disturbingly, the ROC has refused to hand over all file notes of its communications with minister Cash and her office and we will continue to seek all such documents as part of the federal court case,” he said. | Disturbingly, the ROC has refused to hand over all file notes of its communications with minister Cash and her office and we will continue to seek all such documents as part of the federal court case,” he said. |
| Under the agreed timetable, evidence must be obtained from all parties next month, with the respondents required to file their defence by 1 December 2017. A substantive hearing will be held in December at a date to be set, following the filing of defences. | Under the agreed timetable, evidence must be obtained from all parties next month, with the respondents required to file their defence by 1 December 2017. A substantive hearing will be held in December at a date to be set, following the filing of defences. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 1.21am BST | at 1.21am BST |
| 12.28am BST | 12.28am BST |
| 00:28 | 00:28 |
| Doug Cameron is back in the committee and he withdraws his previous statement about George Brandis. The hearing moves on, still on asbestos. | Doug Cameron is back in the committee and he withdraws his previous statement about George Brandis. The hearing moves on, still on asbestos. |
| 12.21am BST | 12.21am BST |
| 00:21 | 00:21 |
| My colleague Calla Wahlquist is listening to the estimates hearing examining Indigenous issues. Follow her on @callapilla to learn more. | My colleague Calla Wahlquist is listening to the estimates hearing examining Indigenous issues. Follow her on @callapilla to learn more. |
| Dodson pushing Scullion on whether the govt might support a voice if it was established by simple legislation, not in the constitution. | Dodson pushing Scullion on whether the govt might support a voice if it was established by simple legislation, not in the constitution. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 12.39am BST | at 12.39am BST |