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| Brexit: MPs start debate on indicative votes as May hints she might reject what Commons chooses – live news | Brexit: MPs start debate on indicative votes as May hints she might reject what Commons chooses – live news |
| (32 minutes later) | |
| This is from the Telegraph’s Steven Swinford. | |
| New:A delegation of eight Remain ministers just emerged from Theresa May’s Commons office and were reassured by what they heardPending a confirmation by Stephen Barclay tonight that Govt will push indicative votes if Letwin fails, they are not minded to resign | |
| George Osborne, the Tory former chancellor and now Evening Standard editor, is among the many on Twitter pointing out that the most senior Tory Brexiters have, according to one report (see 7.44pm), acquired a nickname used by the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan. | |
| I’m sorry, is this for real? Have the leaders of the hard Brexiteers just called themselves the same name as the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan? https://t.co/ltMKsyCnwH | |
| Back in the debate Hilary Benn, the Labour chair of the Brexit committee, says Lidington’s argument against the Letwin amendment was “hopelessly confused”. Lidington said the government was opposed to the amendment offering an indicative votes process, but the government was also saying it would do the same if the Letwin amendment failed. | |
| This is from my colleague Jessica Elgot. | |
| NEW -Jacob Rees-Mogg has told the ERG meeting he will support the PM’s deal if the DUP agree, according to a source leaving the room | |
| Dominic Grieve, the Conservative pro-European, is speaking now. He says his is the second name on the Letwin amendment. But, unlike Letwin, he wants a second referendum, he says. He says he thinks Brexit is a mistake of historic proportions. | |
| He says he also disagrees with Letwin on May’s deal. Grieve says he thinks it will deliver a third-rate outcome. | |
| If 230 MPs could vote against it, that suggests a fundamental error has been made, he says. | |
| He says there has been a tendency to close debate down on the grounds that MPs must honour the result of the referendum. | |
| He says he has been an MP for long enough to have heard this case before. In the New Labour era, when Tony Blair had a huge majority, some people even suggested there was no need for second reading votes on bills. Bills should just go through on the nod, it was said. | |
| But, Grieve says, in a democracy you should never close down debate. | |
| He says the mess we are in is at least in part due to the way debate has been closed down. | |
| Grieve says excessive respect for the 2016 referendum result has stopped MPs debating Brexit options properly. | |
| He says he thinks the Commons has an exceptional capacity to find solutions. | |
| But a straightjacket has been imposed on what is acceptable in debate. | |
| Labour’s Stephen Doughty says marches and petitions are part of that too. | |
| Grieve agrees. He says he was at the march on Saturday, and the good humour of the crowd was striking. He says that compares with the “rabidity” of some Brexiters. | |
| Beckett says, since Theresa May said in her statement earlier that “unless this house agrees to it, no deal will not happen” (see 5.32pm), she thought the government would accept her amendment. | Beckett says, since Theresa May said in her statement earlier that “unless this house agrees to it, no deal will not happen” (see 5.32pm), she thought the government would accept her amendment. |
| But it has not agreed to do so, she says. | But it has not agreed to do so, she says. |
| Dame Margaret Beckett, the Labour former foreign secretary, is speaking in the debate now. | Dame Margaret Beckett, the Labour former foreign secretary, is speaking in the debate now. |
| She says her amendment will ensure the UK does not leave the EU unless MPs vote for it. | She says her amendment will ensure the UK does not leave the EU unless MPs vote for it. |
| You can read all the amendments in full, including Beckett’s, on the order paper (pdf). | You can read all the amendments in full, including Beckett’s, on the order paper (pdf). |
| Back in the debate Sir Nicholas Soames, the Conservative former minister, is speaking now. He says he will vote for the Letwin amendment. But he stresses that he has voted for Brexit more often than some of the high-profile Brexiter rebels who have voted against Theresa May’s deal. | Back in the debate Sir Nicholas Soames, the Conservative former minister, is speaking now. He says he will vote for the Letwin amendment. But he stresses that he has voted for Brexit more often than some of the high-profile Brexiter rebels who have voted against Theresa May’s deal. |
| He says he is “truly distraught” at what Brexit has done to the country. | He says he is “truly distraught” at what Brexit has done to the country. |
| Parliament should now do its duty, and bring these matters to a conclusion, he says. | Parliament should now do its duty, and bring these matters to a conclusion, he says. |
| Talking of the rebel Brexiters invited to Chequers yesterday (Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Dominic Raab, David Davis, Iain Duncan Smith), the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg says apparently people are calling them the “Grand Wizards”. They have been meeting, she says. | |
| 1. Earlier today it seemed possible there would be another vote on the PM's deal tomorrow... quickly disappeared not just because govt hasn't yet got the DUP on board but.... | 1. Earlier today it seemed possible there would be another vote on the PM's deal tomorrow... quickly disappeared not just because govt hasn't yet got the DUP on board but.... |
| 2. The 'Grand Wizards' (the new name for the Chequer's daytrippers apparently) also had another meeting this morning, were they discussed again whether they could get on board to back PM's deal and there was no firm conclusion | 2. The 'Grand Wizards' (the new name for the Chequer's daytrippers apparently) also had another meeting this morning, were they discussed again whether they could get on board to back PM's deal and there was no firm conclusion |
| 3. Discussion again about whether PM should promise to go, and if she did, whether she'd have to make that promise publicly, because there is a 'problem of trust' | 3. Discussion again about whether PM should promise to go, and if she did, whether she'd have to make that promise publicly, because there is a 'problem of trust' |
| 4. One of those present said 'it's like the jelly keeps getting nailed to the wall again then you find out that it's fallen on the floor again' | 4. One of those present said 'it's like the jelly keeps getting nailed to the wall again then you find out that it's fallen on the floor again' |
| Obviously you would never expect Kuenssberg to name her source, but anyone familiar with the work of Boris Johnson will know that he is very fond of the “nailing jelly to the wall” metaphor. | Obviously you would never expect Kuenssberg to name her source, but anyone familiar with the work of Boris Johnson will know that he is very fond of the “nailing jelly to the wall” metaphor. |
| The SNP’s Stephen Gethins is speaking in the debate now. He says Theresa May invited a small, elitist group of Brexiters to Chequers yesterday, all of whom have prompted a project that has failed. | The SNP’s Stephen Gethins is speaking in the debate now. He says Theresa May invited a small, elitist group of Brexiters to Chequers yesterday, all of whom have prompted a project that has failed. |
| Anna Soubry, the former Conservative who defected to the Independent Group, says many Conservative MPs are facing their constituency annual general meeting at the moment. They are more worried about what their local activists think than about the national interest. Gethins says Soubry knows the Conservative party better than he does. | Anna Soubry, the former Conservative who defected to the Independent Group, says many Conservative MPs are facing their constituency annual general meeting at the moment. They are more worried about what their local activists think than about the national interest. Gethins says Soubry knows the Conservative party better than he does. |
| The Guardian has just published an article by Michael Heseltine, the former Conservative deputy prime minister, which reads like a version of the speech he gave at the People’s Vote march on Saturday. | The Guardian has just published an article by Michael Heseltine, the former Conservative deputy prime minister, which reads like a version of the speech he gave at the People’s Vote march on Saturday. |
| Here is the article. | Here is the article. |
| Theresa May is effectively gone. She is a leader in name only | Michael Heseltine | Theresa May is effectively gone. She is a leader in name only | Michael Heseltine |
| Here is an extract. | Here is an extract. |
| As I told marchers at last Saturday’s demonstration in London, I dismiss with contempt the image of us as an island wrapped in a union jack, glorying in the famous phrase that captured, for so many, Winston Churchill’s spirit of defiance in 1940: “Very well, alone”. I was there. I saw our army evacuated, our cities bombed, our convoys sunk. Churchill did everything in his power to end this isolation. Alone was never Churchill’s hope or wish: it was his fear ... | As I told marchers at last Saturday’s demonstration in London, I dismiss with contempt the image of us as an island wrapped in a union jack, glorying in the famous phrase that captured, for so many, Winston Churchill’s spirit of defiance in 1940: “Very well, alone”. I was there. I saw our army evacuated, our cities bombed, our convoys sunk. Churchill did everything in his power to end this isolation. Alone was never Churchill’s hope or wish: it was his fear ... |
| Margaret Thatcher would have been appalled to see Britain excluded from the top table. Theresa May dashed across the Channel last week, only to be excluded from a meeting of our former partners, and presented with a take-it-or-leave-it offer. That is what the Brexiteers have done to our country: a national humiliation, made in Britain, made by Brexit. | Margaret Thatcher would have been appalled to see Britain excluded from the top table. Theresa May dashed across the Channel last week, only to be excluded from a meeting of our former partners, and presented with a take-it-or-leave-it offer. That is what the Brexiteers have done to our country: a national humiliation, made in Britain, made by Brexit. |
| And here is the full speech. | And here is the full speech. |
| Letwin says MPs should allow themselves a couple of days to do what should have been done over a couple of years. | Letwin says MPs should allow themselves a couple of days to do what should have been done over a couple of years. |
| He says he thinks it would make sense to start by allowing MPs who support various options, like a people’s vote, or Norway plus, or whatever. | He says he thinks it would make sense to start by allowing MPs who support various options, like a people’s vote, or Norway plus, or whatever. |
| He says the Speaker has a lot of experience at choosing amendments that have support in the house for debate. | He says the Speaker has a lot of experience at choosing amendments that have support in the house for debate. |
| He says he is opposed to revoking article 50, but he accepts it is a serious option. | He says he is opposed to revoking article 50, but he accepts it is a serious option. |
| My colleague Jessica Elgot says some supporters of a second referendum are arguing that this should not be an option in indicative votes, because that is a process option not an outcome option. | My colleague Jessica Elgot says some supporters of a second referendum are arguing that this should not be an option in indicative votes, because that is a process option not an outcome option. |
| This view is gaining traction that a referendum should *not* be among the options for indicative votes because it is a process not a Brexit option. MPs think that then avoids splitting the vote. PV backers can vote for soft Brexit/Common Market 2.0 and then amend to add ref. https://t.co/3Oxifwsyzv | This view is gaining traction that a referendum should *not* be among the options for indicative votes because it is a process not a Brexit option. MPs think that then avoids splitting the vote. PV backers can vote for soft Brexit/Common Market 2.0 and then amend to add ref. https://t.co/3Oxifwsyzv |
| Letwin says he thinks he will have to press his amendment to a vote tonight. | Letwin says he thinks he will have to press his amendment to a vote tonight. |
| Ken Clarke, the Tory pro-European, intervenes. He asks what system would be used to decide what system MPs can agree on. He says he thinks the single transferrable vote system would be best. | Ken Clarke, the Tory pro-European, intervenes. He asks what system would be used to decide what system MPs can agree on. He says he thinks the single transferrable vote system would be best. |
| Letwin says this could be discussed on Wednesday. But he says he thinks it would be best for MPs to vote on all options at the same time, voting on paper, so the Commons can determine which ideas have a lot of support, and which don’t. | Letwin says this could be discussed on Wednesday. But he says he thinks it would be best for MPs to vote on all options at the same time, voting on paper, so the Commons can determine which ideas have a lot of support, and which don’t. |
| He says that would deal with the problems that might arise if people vote sequentially. | He says that would deal with the problems that might arise if people vote sequentially. |
| After that, there could be further votes, he says. | After that, there could be further votes, he says. |
| This is from the Press Association’s Richard Wheeler. | This is from the Press Association’s Richard Wheeler. |
| Tory former minister Sir Oliver Letwin refers to meaningful vote “infinity”...“Don’t encourage her,” shouts one Labour MP. | Tory former minister Sir Oliver Letwin refers to meaningful vote “infinity”...“Don’t encourage her,” shouts one Labour MP. |
| Letwin says he is surprised to find himself in the role of rebel. | Letwin says he is surprised to find himself in the role of rebel. |
| He always used to be a very loyal MP, he says. | He always used to be a very loyal MP, he says. |
| And he says, although he voted remain, he thinks the result of the referendum should be honoured. | And he says, although he voted remain, he thinks the result of the referendum should be honoured. |
| In the past he has tried to bring Tory backbenchers together, he says. | In the past he has tried to bring Tory backbenchers together, he says. |
| He also says he has voted for Theresa May’s Brexit deal, and will continue to do so. | He also says he has voted for Theresa May’s Brexit deal, and will continue to do so. |
| Sir Oliver Letwin, the Conservative who has tabled the key indicative votes amendment, is speaking now. | Sir Oliver Letwin, the Conservative who has tabled the key indicative votes amendment, is speaking now. |
| He says people have said that his amendment would overturn an ancient constitutional principle. | He says people have said that his amendment would overturn an ancient constitutional principle. |
| But he says the principle that government business takes precedence in Commons business only dates back to 1906. | But he says the principle that government business takes precedence in Commons business only dates back to 1906. |
| (Letwin’s amendment would suspend this rule for a day, on Wednesday, so as to allow the start of the indicative votes process.) | (Letwin’s amendment would suspend this rule for a day, on Wednesday, so as to allow the start of the indicative votes process.) |
| Starmer says he used to say the PM was surviving by the week. Then he said she was surviving by the day. Now she is surviving by the hour, he says. | Starmer says he used to say the PM was surviving by the week. Then he said she was surviving by the day. Now she is surviving by the hour, he says. |
| He ends by urging MPs to back the Letwin amendment so they can take back control. | He ends by urging MPs to back the Letwin amendment so they can take back control. |