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Brexit: MPs start debate on indicative votes as May hints she might reject what Commons chooses – live news Brexit: MPs start debate on indicative votes as May hints she might reject what Commons chooses – live news
(32 minutes later)
The SNP’s Tommy Sheppard is speaking now. He says ministers complain that the Letwin amendment would alter the balance of power between the executive and the legislature. That is exactly what it should be passed, he says.
In the debate Owen Smith is speaking now. He says he made the case for a second referendum when he challenged Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership unsuccessfully in 2016.
Speaking in favour of the Lewin amendment, he says he is worried that, if there are indicative votes, the government will try to “bamboozle” MPs by offering them a whole smorgasbord of options, including a second referendum.
But that would be “tricksy” and “deceitful”, he says, because a second referendum is a process matter, not an eventual outcome. He says he hopes the speaker would not allow this.
In a fraught meeting of Tory Brexiters in the European Research Group tonight, the group’s chair Jacob Rees-Mogg told supporters he would back the prime minister’s deal if May could secure the support of the DUP.
Inside the room however, the loudest thumping on the desk came after an emotional speech by the DUP’s Sammy Wilson railing against the deal, saying it could see Northern Ireland separated from Great Britain under the terms of the backstop.
MPs leaving the room were in anxious disagreement about the path ahead. “We have got to make them see sense and see that we could lose Brexit forever if we vote this down,” one MP said.
Another said they did not feel now was the moment to cave. “If we give in now, we will never know what we could have achieved,” another said. “I am appalled by it all and disgusted and the British people are never going to forgive us.”
Nick Boles, one of the Conservative MPs who has backed the Letwin amendment, says he was not impressed by David Lidington’s offer at the start of the debate of an alternative government procedure. (See 6.10pm.)
There is no Cabinet minister who enjoys greater trust in the House than David Lidington. But his offer of government time to debate alternatives is hopeless without full details of how it will work, how voting will be conducted etc. We must press on.
Govt sources still expecting to lose vote on Letwin but as ever, situation seems a bit more fluid than people thought at the beginning of the day as the time for the vote's actually approaching
Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, is urging MPs to back the Letwin amendment.
Last week, the EU saw that the PM had no coherent or deliverable #Brexit plan and decided to come up with one for her. The Commons must do the same tonight.
This is what the Conservative MP Charlie Elphicke thinks about the prospect of pro-European ministers resigning to vote for the Letwin amendment.
Beyond ridicule that Conservative Government Ministers - who are meant to be governing the country remember - threaten to quit so they can allow a cross party group of MPs led by Labour to govern in their place. https://t.co/UdxTduDEI8
At various stages in the Brexit process there have been reports about pro-European ministers threatening to resign en masse if they don’t get some concession from the government. Those threats have always been withdrawn - normally (but not always) after Number 10 shifted a bit towards what the pro-Europeans wanted.
According to ITV’s Robert Peston, something similar seems to be happening again.
BREAKING 1) @oletwinofficial telling supporters he's anxious that in the end he may not have the votes for his parliament-takes-control-of-Brexit motion. 2) Remainy ministers contemplating now whether they have to resign tonight to get his motion over the line. 3) @theresa_may...
was warned tonight by Gaukward squad of ministers - Gauke, Rudd, Clark, Mundell, etc - there could be 30 ministerial resignations on Wednesday if free vote on indicative votes not allowed (subject to Letwin motion passing or @SteveBarclay promising...
government-sponsored version of indicative votes when he winds up debate in an hour). It is all still very messy
Steve Baker, one of the Tory Brexiter invited to Chequers yesterday, says he and his colleagues are not calling themselves “Grand Wizards”.
No, it’s not for real https://t.co/AV5MbiLu5U
The BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, who revealed the use of the nickname (see 7.44pm), says it was never intended to be derogatory.
just catching up on timeline, for avoidance of doubt, couple of insiders told me using the nickname informally, no intended connection to anything else
This is from the Conservative MP Damian Collins, who says he will vote for the Letwin amendment tonight.This is from the Conservative MP Damian Collins, who says he will vote for the Letwin amendment tonight.
I will be voting for Oliver Letwin’s amendment (a) tonight to give @HouseofCommons the right to vote for alternative solutions to the Brexit deadlock. We cannot keep going round in circles. It’s time to decide on Brexit and for parliament to demonstrate which solution it supportsI will be voting for Oliver Letwin’s amendment (a) tonight to give @HouseofCommons the right to vote for alternative solutions to the Brexit deadlock. We cannot keep going round in circles. It’s time to decide on Brexit and for parliament to demonstrate which solution it supports
Collins was not one of the 15 Tories who defied the whip to vote for the Hilary Benn indicative votes amendment two weeks ago.Collins was not one of the 15 Tories who defied the whip to vote for the Hilary Benn indicative votes amendment two weeks ago.
This is from my colleague Jessica Elgot.This is from my colleague Jessica Elgot.
Labour source says they do not think Letwin amendment on indicative votes is going to pass.... would be big turnaround from government assumptions this morningLabour source says they do not think Letwin amendment on indicative votes is going to pass.... would be big turnaround from government assumptions this morning
A government source has denied Jeremy Corbyn’s claim that Theresa May suggested splitting the vote on the withdrawal agreement from the vote on the political declaration when they met at lunchtime earlier. (See 3.06pm.) The source said it was simply being explained to Labour side that the EU summit conclusions published last week - which could see article 50 extended to May 22 - referred only to the withdrawal agreement. “It was a clarification that came up in the course of a wider conversation,” the source said.A government source has denied Jeremy Corbyn’s claim that Theresa May suggested splitting the vote on the withdrawal agreement from the vote on the political declaration when they met at lunchtime earlier. (See 3.06pm.) The source said it was simply being explained to Labour side that the EU summit conclusions published last week - which could see article 50 extended to May 22 - referred only to the withdrawal agreement. “It was a clarification that came up in the course of a wider conversation,” the source said.
The source said that in order to satisfy the terms of the EU Withdrawal Act, the Commons “meaningful vote” had to cover both the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration.The source said that in order to satisfy the terms of the EU Withdrawal Act, the Commons “meaningful vote” had to cover both the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration.
Labour’s Lisa Nandy is speaking in the debate now. The government must rule out no deal, she says. Asked why by someone on the government side, she says she recently spoke to a constituent whose son is on a waiting list for an EU medical trial. She says she was desperately worried about how a no-deal Brexit could stop her son being included.
This is from the Telegraph’s Steven Swinford.
New:A delegation of eight Remain ministers just emerged from Theresa May’s Commons office and were reassured by what they heardPending a confirmation by Stephen Barclay tonight that Govt will push indicative votes if Letwin fails, they are not minded to resign
George Osborne, the Tory former chancellor and now Evening Standard editor, is among the many on Twitter pointing out that the most senior Tory Brexiters have, according to one report (see 7.44pm), acquired a nickname used by the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan.
I’m sorry, is this for real? Have the leaders of the hard Brexiteers just called themselves the same name as the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan? https://t.co/ltMKsyCnwH
Back in the debate Hilary Benn, the Labour chair of the Brexit committee, says Lidington’s argument against the Letwin amendment was “hopelessly confused”. Lidington said the government was opposed to the amendment offering an indicative votes process, but the government was also saying it would do the same if the Letwin amendment failed.
This is from my colleague Jessica Elgot.
NEW -Jacob Rees-Mogg has told the ERG meeting he will support the PM’s deal if the DUP agree, according to a source leaving the room
Dominic Grieve, the Conservative pro-European, is speaking now. He says his is the second name on the Letwin amendment. But, unlike Letwin, he wants a second referendum, he says. He says he thinks Brexit is a mistake of historic proportions.
He says he also disagrees with Letwin on May’s deal. Grieve says he thinks it will deliver a third-rate outcome.
If MPs could vote against it by a majority of 230, that suggests a fundamental error has been made, he says.
He says there has been a tendency to close debate down on the grounds that MPs must honour the result of the referendum.
He says he has been an MP for long enough to have heard this case before. In the New Labour era, when Tony Blair had a huge majority, some people even suggested there was no need for second reading votes on bills. Bills should just go through on the nod, it was said.
But, Grieve says, in a democracy you should never close down debate.
He says the mess we are in is at least in part due to the way debate has been closed down.
Grieve says excessive respect for the 2016 referendum result has stopped MPs debating Brexit options properly.
He says he thinks the Commons has an exceptional capacity to find solutions.
But a straightjacket has been imposed on what is acceptable in debate.
Labour’s Stephen Doughty says marches and petitions are part of that too.
Grieve agrees. He says he was at the march on Saturday, and the good humour of the crowd was striking. He says that compares with the “rabidity” of some Brexiters.
Beckett says, since Theresa May said in her statement earlier that “unless this house agrees to it, no deal will not happen” (see 5.32pm), she thought the government would accept her amendment.
But it has not agreed to do so, she says.
Dame Margaret Beckett, the Labour former foreign secretary, is speaking in the debate now.
She says her amendment will ensure the UK does not leave the EU unless MPs vote for it.
You can read all the amendments in full, including Beckett’s, on the order paper (pdf).
Back in the debate Sir Nicholas Soames, the Conservative former minister, is speaking now. He says he will vote for the Letwin amendment. But he stresses that he has voted for Brexit more often than some of the high-profile Brexiter rebels who have voted against Theresa May’s deal.
He says he is “truly distraught” at what Brexit has done to the country.
Parliament should now do its duty, and bring these matters to a conclusion, he says.
Talking of the rebel Brexiters invited to Chequers yesterday (Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker, Dominic Raab, David Davis, Iain Duncan Smith), the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg says apparently people are calling them the “Grand Wizards”. They have been meeting, she says.
1. Earlier today it seemed possible there would be another vote on the PM's deal tomorrow... quickly disappeared not just because govt hasn't yet got the DUP on board but....
2. The 'Grand Wizards' (the new name for the Chequer's daytrippers apparently) also had another meeting this morning, were they discussed again whether they could get on board to back PM's deal and there was no firm conclusion
3. Discussion again about whether PM should promise to go, and if she did, whether she'd have to make that promise publicly, because there is a 'problem of trust'
4. One of those present said 'it's like the jelly keeps getting nailed to the wall again then you find out that it's fallen on the floor again'
Obviously you would never expect Kuenssberg to name her source, but anyone familiar with the work of Boris Johnson will know that he is very fond of the “nailing jelly to the wall” metaphor.