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Tory leadership: Johnson, Hunt, Gove, Stewart and Javid in BBC debate – live Tory leadership candidates rule out pre-Brexit election in BBC debate – live
(32 minutes later)
It is hard to recall any other televised leadership debate that reflected so badly on the party concerned. This went out in a BBC primetime slot and yet, the biggest issue of the day, Brexit, the five people vying to be the next PM singularly failed to allay the concerns that were put to them by viewers. Will no-deal put by husband out of business? Don’t worry, there will be some “economic turbulence”, but we’ll get through it, said Michael Gove. Will you be able to keep the Irish border open? All the candidates said it should be kept open, but none could say how. In fact, on Brexit, no one could answer the how question at all. And, once the topic turned away from Brexit, there were unfunded promises on tax and a general recognition that public services are stretched - without any acknowledgment that the government all five have supported has been responsible. On social media there have been some complaints that Tory leadership coverage crowds out the Labour/opposition perspective, but it is hard to see how anyone at CCHQ might view this as positive coverage for the party.
Whether this will make any difference to the leadership election is a different matter. Sajid Javid probably had the best night, mostly for the lovely moment when he bounced his reluctant colleagues into agreeing an external inquiry into Islamophobia in the Tory pary. Whether this ever comes to anything is another matter, but he looked decisive. If only solving Brexit were that easy. Jeremy Hunt and Michael Gove both did relatively okay. As the candidate with the most distinctive message on Brexit, and on taxation and public services, Rory Stewart would probably win the support of the 50% of the public on that side of the argument. But they are not well represented on the Conservative party, and his evasive answer in response to Javid’s probing on the President Trump/Katie Hopkins tweet probably lost him a lot of ground with liberal Britain. Boris Johnson probably had the worst night. His attempt to excuse his gaffe about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was an obvious mistake. (Even if, as he claimed, his words did not make a difference to her incarceration, that was not the argument to make - he should have just said he made a mistake, and was sorry.) On Brexit he was unconvincing (as was everyone else.) And forgetting the Imam’s name might have been a very rivial mishap, but it was one that appeared to confirm a negative view many people have of him - that he has a casual disregard for some people who are not white.
Debates don’t make as much difference as people think, and Johnson remains the overall favourite to become next prime minister. But leadership contests are supposed to invigorate a party and leave it looking more attractive to the public. On the basis of tonight, it is hard to see that happening to the Conservatives this summer.
Q: If you become PM, you will have no mandate from the public. When will you do the right thing and call an election?Q: If you become PM, you will have no mandate from the public. When will you do the right thing and call an election?
Johnson says the Labour party don’t want an election. He does not think anyone in the Commons wants one.Johnson says the Labour party don’t want an election. He does not think anyone in the Commons wants one.
Q: But you said, when Gordon Brown took over as PM, it was arrogant not to have an election. What is different?Q: But you said, when Gordon Brown took over as PM, it was arrogant not to have an election. What is different?
Johnson says this is different. The next leader will be taking over at a time of crisis.Johnson says this is different. The next leader will be taking over at a time of crisis.
Hunt says there must be no election until the government has delivered Brexit.Hunt says there must be no election until the government has delivered Brexit.
Stewart says there must be no election until they have recovered trust.Stewart says there must be no election until they have recovered trust.
Gove says after Brexit the government can address other things. And then the Tories can take on Jeremy Corbyn, a “discredited Marxist”.Gove says after Brexit the government can address other things. And then the Tories can take on Jeremy Corbyn, a “discredited Marxist”.
Javid says they must deliver Brexit first.Javid says they must deliver Brexit first.
By 31 October, says Johnson.By 31 October, says Johnson.
And that’s it.And that’s it.
Javid says his 16-year-old daughter has asked him about this a lot.Javid says his 16-year-old daughter has asked him about this a lot.
We have done a lot, but “nowhere near enough”. Becoming carbon neutral will take time. But we need to be a lot more ambitious.We have done a lot, but “nowhere near enough”. Becoming carbon neutral will take time. But we need to be a lot more ambitious.
The questioner says none of the panel has impressed her.The questioner says none of the panel has impressed her.
Q: Would you commit to getting net carbon emissions down to zero by 2025?Q: Would you commit to getting net carbon emissions down to zero by 2025?
Johnson says he will commit to putting the environment at the heart of his programme.Johnson says he will commit to putting the environment at the heart of his programme.
Gove says he has met and praised Greta Thunberg. He has a 25-year environment plan.Gove says he has met and praised Greta Thunberg. He has a 25-year environment plan.
Q: [To Johnson] Will you stop Heathrow expansion?Q: [To Johnson] Will you stop Heathrow expansion?
Johnson says he continues to have “grave reservations” about this.Johnson says he continues to have “grave reservations” about this.
Q: Will you stop it?Q: Will you stop it?
Johnson says he has “grave concerns”. There are court cases under way, he says. He will follow them closely.Johnson says he has “grave concerns”. There are court cases under way, he says. He will follow them closely.
Johnson refuses to say he would stop the Heathrow third runway going ahead - even though in the past he has opposed it strongly.Johnson refuses to say he would stop the Heathrow third runway going ahead - even though in the past he has opposed it strongly.
Javid asks Stewart why he was not willing to criticise Trump over the Katie Hopkins speech. Stewart is on the defensive, and stresses the importance of diplomacy.Javid asks Stewart why he was not willing to criticise Trump over the Katie Hopkins speech. Stewart is on the defensive, and stresses the importance of diplomacy.
Q: I’m the Imam of a mosque. I see the impact of Islamophobia. Do you accept words have consequences?Q: I’m the Imam of a mosque. I see the impact of Islamophobia. Do you accept words have consequences?
Johnson says of course he does. In so far as people have taken words out of his articles and escalated, he is sorry for that. But his Muslim great-grandfather came to this country because he thought it would be a beacon of decency.Johnson says of course he does. In so far as people have taken words out of his articles and escalated, he is sorry for that. But his Muslim great-grandfather came to this country because he thought it would be a beacon of decency.
He forgets the name of the questioner (Abdullah).He forgets the name of the questioner (Abdullah).
Q: Do you accept words have consequences. Your words about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe did?Q: Do you accept words have consequences. Your words about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe did?
Johnson says in this case, he does not think his words did have consequences. It was the Iranian regime that is responsible for what happened to Zaghari-Ratcliffe.Johnson says in this case, he does not think his words did have consequences. It was the Iranian regime that is responsible for what happened to Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
Q: [To Hunt] And you have endorsed President Trump retweeting comments from Katie Hopkins.Q: [To Hunt] And you have endorsed President Trump retweeting comments from Katie Hopkins.
Hunt says that is wrong. He backed Trump’s point about Sadiq Khan having a poor record on crime. But he totally rejects Katie Hopkins’ inflammatory language.Hunt says that is wrong. He backed Trump’s point about Sadiq Khan having a poor record on crime. But he totally rejects Katie Hopkins’ inflammatory language.
He says he is married to an immigrant. His children are half-Chinese. But when they go to school they are treated as equals, because we are a tolerant society.He says he is married to an immigrant. His children are half-Chinese. But when they go to school they are treated as equals, because we are a tolerant society.
Javid says he would be happy for an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory party.Javid says he would be happy for an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory party.
He invites the others: ‘Do you all agree?’ Half-heartedly, most of them seem to. That’s it then, says Javid. He says it will happen.He invites the others: ‘Do you all agree?’ Half-heartedly, most of them seem to. That’s it then, says Javid. He says it will happen.
Javid appears to bounce his rivals into accepting an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Conservative party.Javid appears to bounce his rivals into accepting an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Conservative party.
Stewart says the adult social care system is a disgrace.Stewart says the adult social care system is a disgrace.
We have not funded it properly because we have not got out of party silos, he says.We have not funded it properly because we have not got out of party silos, he says.
Gove asks: “What is your plan?”Gove asks: “What is your plan?”
He says the plan is there in the Dilnot plan.He says the plan is there in the Dilnot plan.
Hunt says some of the cuts in social care went too far.Hunt says some of the cuts in social care went too far.
Hunt says his own government has cut the social care budget too much.Hunt says his own government has cut the social care budget too much.
Local authorities need more, he says.Local authorities need more, he says.
He says we leave dealing with mental health too late.He says we leave dealing with mental health too late.
He says too many children leave school without being able to read and write properly.He says too many children leave school without being able to read and write properly.
Johnson says we need to invest much more in education. And we need to join up our mental health system, he says.Johnson says we need to invest much more in education. And we need to join up our mental health system, he says.
Stewart says you need taxes to fund public services.Stewart says you need taxes to fund public services.
He says we can plan for how AI and robotics will change the world of work.He says we can plan for how AI and robotics will change the world of work.
Javid says he has relied on public services.Javid says he has relied on public services.
Q: But you supported cuts?Q: But you supported cuts?
Javid says he would prioritise health and education.Javid says he would prioritise health and education.
Tax cuts can sometimes lead to more revenue, he says.Tax cuts can sometimes lead to more revenue, he says.
And the country can afford to borrow more, he says.And the country can afford to borrow more, he says.
Q: I have fostered more than 100 children. What would you do to reverse cuts that have affected children?Q: I have fostered more than 100 children. What would you do to reverse cuts that have affected children?
Gove says he started his life in care.Gove says he started his life in care.
He says he has a detailed plan to target money on the poorest.He says he has a detailed plan to target money on the poorest.
Q: What cuts would you reverse?Q: What cuts would you reverse?
Gove says he introduced changes that make adoption easier. He will not reverse those.Gove says he introduced changes that make adoption easier. He will not reverse those.
Gove says he is the candidate most committed to working people.Gove says he is the candidate most committed to working people.
He says Johnson’s tax plan, which would help people like MPs, is wrong.He says Johnson’s tax plan, which would help people like MPs, is wrong.
He says Jeremy Corbyn is not interested in standing up for working people. He is only interested in defending Iran.He says Jeremy Corbyn is not interested in standing up for working people. He is only interested in defending Iran.
Stewart says everyone else in the contest is promising things that are not realistic. Collectively, his rivals have promised cuts worth £84bn. He says it is not the time for tax cuts. If he could deliver a realistic Brexit, he would spend money on public services.Stewart says everyone else in the contest is promising things that are not realistic. Collectively, his rivals have promised cuts worth £84bn. He says it is not the time for tax cuts. If he could deliver a realistic Brexit, he would spend money on public services.
The questioner says he thinks Hunt was the candidate talking most sense. He says he disagreed strongly with Stewart.The questioner says he thinks Hunt was the candidate talking most sense. He says he disagreed strongly with Stewart.
Q: I used to vote Tory, but now vote for the Brexit party. What is your plan to lift the tax burden on the working classes?Q: I used to vote Tory, but now vote for the Brexit party. What is your plan to lift the tax burden on the working classes?
Javid says the government has addressed the deficit. He thinks we can now cut taxes for working people. He would do this by cutting the basic rate of tax.Javid says the government has addressed the deficit. He thinks we can now cut taxes for working people. He would do this by cutting the basic rate of tax.
Q: [To Hunt] You have said your priority is to cut corporation tax. But it has been cut a lot already, almost every year.Q: [To Hunt] You have said your priority is to cut corporation tax. But it has been cut a lot already, almost every year.
Hunt says cutting corporation tax would turbo-charge the economy. People say the Tories are the party of the rich. They must never fall into the trap of encouraging this idea.Hunt says cutting corporation tax would turbo-charge the economy. People say the Tories are the party of the rich. They must never fall into the trap of encouraging this idea.
Q: [To Johnson] Under your plan, people on £79,000 would not be in the higher tax rate?Q: [To Johnson] Under your plan, people on £79,000 would not be in the higher tax rate?
Johnson says, as mayor of London, he increased the minimum wage.Johnson says, as mayor of London, he increased the minimum wage.
But he also favours having a debate about the threshold for the higher rate of tax. He says people like nurses should not be in this bracket.But he also favours having a debate about the threshold for the higher rate of tax. He says people like nurses should not be in this bracket.
Q: Would it definitely go ahead?Q: Would it definitely go ahead?
Johnson says his priority would be to raise the tax threshold. But it is right to have an “ambition” to lift the threshold for the higher rate of tax.Johnson says his priority would be to raise the tax threshold. But it is right to have an “ambition” to lift the threshold for the higher rate of tax.
Johnson appears to scale back his commitment to raising the higher rate tax threshold, describing it as just an “ambition”.Johnson appears to scale back his commitment to raising the higher rate tax threshold, describing it as just an “ambition”.
The questioner says the panel have not answered his question. There is a lot of confusion about this in Northern Ireland, he says. He hopes there will be more clarity in future.The questioner says the panel have not answered his question. There is a lot of confusion about this in Northern Ireland, he says. He hopes there will be more clarity in future.