This article is from the source 'guardian' and was first published or seen on . It last changed over 40 days ago and won't be checked again for changes.

You can find the current article at its original source at https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jun/18/tory-leadership-bbc-debate-boris-johnson-voting-results-gets-fresh-boost-as-leadsom-gives-her-support-live-news

The article has changed 19 times. There is an RSS feed of changes available.

Version 17 Version 18
Tory leadership candidates rule out pre-Brexit election in BBC debate – live Tory leadership candidates rule out pre-Brexit election in BBC debate – as it happened
(over 1 year later)
It is hard to recall any other televised leadership debate that reflected so badly on the party concerned. This went out in a BBC primetime slot and yet, the biggest issue of the day, Brexit, the five people vying to be the next PM singularly failed to allay the concerns that were put to them by viewers. Will no-deal put by husband out of business? Don’t worry, there will be some “economic turbulence”, but we’ll get through it, said Michael Gove. Will you be able to keep the Irish border open? All the candidates said it should be kept open, but none could say how. In fact, on Brexit, no one could answer the how question at all. And, once the topic turned away from Brexit, there were unfunded promises on tax and a general recognition that public services are stretched - without any acknowledgment that the government all five have supported has been responsible. On social media there have been some complaints that Tory leadership coverage crowds out the Labour/opposition perspective, but it is hard to see how anyone at CCHQ might view this as positive coverage for the party. We’re going to close down this live blog now – thanks for reading and commenting. Here’s a summary of the day’s events:
Whether this will make any difference to the leadership election is a different matter. Sajid Javid probably had the best night, mostly for the lovely moment when he bounced his reluctant colleagues into agreeing an external inquiry into Islamophobia in the Tory pary. Whether this ever comes to anything is another matter, but he looked decisive. If only solving Brexit were that easy. Jeremy Hunt and Michael Gove both did relatively okay. As the candidate with the most distinctive message on Brexit, and on taxation and public services, Rory Stewart would probably win the support of the 50% of the public on that side of the argument. But they are not well represented on the Conservative party, and his evasive answer in response to Javid’s probing on the President Trump/Katie Hopkins tweet probably lost him a lot of ground with liberal Britain. Boris Johnson probably had the worst night. His attempt to excuse his gaffe about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was an obvious mistake. (Even if, as he claimed, his words did not make a difference to her incarceration, that was not the argument to make - he should have just said he made a mistake, and was sorry.) On Brexit he was unconvincing (as was everyone else.) And forgetting the Imam’s name might have been a very rivial mishap, but it was one that appeared to confirm a negative view many people have of him - that he has a casual disregard for some people who are not white. The field in the Tory leadership campaign was narrowed to five as Dominic Raab was eliminated from the running. Boris Johnson was way out ahead, with 126 votes. He was followed by Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Rory Stewart and Sajid Javid – in that order. They each had the support of between 46 and 33 of their parliamentary colleagues. Raab had only 30. You can read an analysis of the vote here.
Later, in a public debate on the BBC, the candidates clashed over tax cuts, a no-deal Brexit and the Irish border, as well as public service cuts, climate change and Islamophobia. The five went somewhat wild in New Broadcasting House, with the event being characterised by numerous interruptions that the host, Emily Maitlis, had to work hard to contain. You can read the exchanges by clicking the links and here’s a comprehensive summary of the debate as a whole.
And you can read a summary of the day’s news up to lunchtime here.
If you’d like to read yet more, my colleague Heather Stewart has produced this excellent article:
Boris Johnson defensive, evasive, and favourite for No 10
Lord Heseltine, who had the Tory whip suspended last month after saying he had voted Lib Dem in the European elections, told Newsnight:
It was a deeply depressing occasion for me because I’m disenfranchised. [The candidates] are all Brexiteers and there are large parts of my party who will never vote for a Brexiteer.
It was a masterclass in avoiding the answers to questions, there was not a single new policy idea and there were a lot of assertions which made no sense. For example, we are going to be tough with Europe, we are going to imply leaving on the October the 31st.
But, when it comes to it, the arithmetic in Parliament is the same. There is no majority for no deal, the Europeans know that, they have said they won’t renegotiate the deal.
So, all this stuff about being tough is the language of city bankers who negotiate deals and know they have to have a hard line. If they fail, two companies move away and continue trading, if they fail this time it is the savings of the British people ... and the coherence of the United Kingdom at risk.
The programme also featured some supporters of the various candidates. The former party leader, Iain Duncan Smith, who’s supporting Boris Johnson, said:
I thought it was clear the whole way through, what he said was we have to leave on the 31st October full stop. That’s what he said. And then he goes on to say it is eminently achievable i.e. getting all the plans ready for the 31st is absolutely right. I am more than happy, I thought that was a very strong commitment we are leaving on the 31st October.
I think if you look at what he said, and I what I believe that absolutely categorically we need to deliver: Number one we have to commit to leaving by the 31st October - he has done that. Two, you can’t renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement you’ll insult the intelligence of the EU.
The junior minister George Eustice, is supporting his boss at Defra, Michael Gove. He told the programme he could rule out the possibility of a pact with Rory Stewart.
Rory has been pushing this around, but it is a bonkers idea. I’ve told him that. In Conservative leadership campaigns – and I’ve seen a few – when a candidate is eliminated, their supporters go all over the place, they scatter like cats. We must let this contest progress and see who’s left standing. You don’t do sort of bizarre pacts as Rory has been suggesting.
The former work and pension secretary, Stephen Crabb, is backing Sajid Javid. He brushed off talk that his man was thinking of packing it in.
Did Sajid Javid look like a man who’s about to throw in the towel or about to be knocked out of the contest? He fought tonight, I thought he gave - in a difficult format – he gave a good display of what he can offer the country.
Referring to reports that Stewart’s campaign had sent almost identical messages to potential supporters following this afternoon’s vote, albeit some more complimentary than others, Crabb said:
It didn’t praise my intellect funnily enough, it made other compliments but not my intellect.
Michael Gove also spoke to the BBC’s Newsnight after the debate and he was somewhat more upbeat – even going so far as to assure the four other candidates they’d have a place on his “team” after he’s elected to the party leadership.
I won the debate. Because I had the most detailed answers and I have a clear plan to how we can deliver Brexit and make sure we get all the benefits of life outside the European Union.
And, of course, there were some other great people there. I love Rory, I love Boris, Saj and Jeremy, they will all be fantastic members of my team.
Here’s a little more on Rory Stewart’s reaction to his own performance during tonight’s debate. He was asked by the BBC’s Newsnight if he agreed he was a “bit lacklustre”.
You’re right, I didn’t find that format really worked for me. I’m going to have to learn how I flourish in a strange format in an alternative reality.
Stewart was seen to take his tie off during the debate. Asked why, he said:
Well, I thought maybe, if I took my tie off, we could get back to a bit of reality. I was beginning to feel on those strange BBC white bar stools, that we were moving off into an alternate reality.
He was asked whether he could carry on to the next stage on his own, or would need to join up with another of the candidates to make it through.
I definitely think that we would all be in a stronger position if we could begin to combine. The problem, of course, that you’re dealing with is that, with politicians, every single person thinks that they should be the leader, so the challenge in all these conversations is who’s coming in behind who
Asked to elaborate, he said:
I’ve said I wouldn’t serve in a Boris government, but I like the other candidates very much and I would be making open offers to all of them.
And he clarified that, in such a situation, he would be looking to be the leader.
Rory Stewart has told Newsnight his performance was a bit “lacklustre” tonight.
"I didn't find that format really worked for me."Rory Stewart agrees that his performance in tonight's debate was "lacklustre". https://t.co/HsAoNDtRIJ@NicholasWatt | @RoryStewartUK | #Newsnight | #BBCOurNextPM pic.twitter.com/CWvPX80jYx
That’s all from me for tonight. My colleague Kevin Rawlinson is taking over now.
From the Sun’s Tom Newton Dunn
Fascinating final shot in @bbclaurak’s package on #BBCNextPM. At its end, when they thought they were off camera, Javid gives Stewart a hug and they have a friendly chat. But Johnson, Gove and Hunt all walk off ignoring each other. No love lost between those three. pic.twitter.com/rGbYLxwcR2
Here is a Twitter thread from Abdullah Patel, who asked the question about Islamophobia in the debate.
Thread1/So it was me on #BBCOurNextPM and yes, my name is Abdullah, not Tina "our friend from Bristol". This is the context of the Q and how I think it went:
2/As an Imam, I'm exposed to many incidents which happen in my community, and of course, as a visible Muslim, I also witness it first hand. I have received numerous incident reports of blatant racism against members of my community, from spitting and swearing at Muslim women...
3/To asking students coming to my mosque if they had bombs in their bags. The hate is real, and it's a shame our leaders can't see it from their high towers. I wanted the candidates to admit that they've played a role in peddling this hate, and that things would change...
4/Hence the very direct Q: Do you accept that words have consequences. What I got as a repsonse was nothing short of disappointing and deluded:@BorisJohnson forgot my name, spoke about his G grandfather and about Iran. Gove used the opportunity to have a dig at @jeremycorbyn...
5/@Jeremy_Hunt used the chance to speak about how he can't be racist because he has an immigrant wife, and @RoryStewartUK forgot that this is also OUR country. The only positive from the debate was @sajidjavid making them all commit to an independent investigation into...
6/Islamophobia in the @Conservatives. Take note @BrandonLewis!Many thanks to the BBC for giving me this chance to speak up for my community, and for @MuslimCouncil @mendcommunity @SayeedaWarsi @MatesJacob for putting pressure on the Tories.Good night#BBCOurNextPM
And this is what Rory Stewart’s campaign is saying about the debate. A spokesperson said:
Watching the debate it was clear that Rory was the sole voice of reality in the room.
Sunlight on Boris is showing he will continue the Brexit fudge. No realistic plan that can be delivered, built for short term appeasement of colleagues rather than the long term good of our country and politics.
And this is from Rory Stewart. As well as complaining about the BBC chair being uncomfortable, he says he came away from the debate thinking he was the only person committed to Brexit, because the policies backed by the other candidates would just lead to delay, he claimed.
Freed from the bar-stool and back to reality: How do you get a quick new deal from the EU? How do you get no-deal through parliament? #RoryOnBarStool pic.twitter.com/6yGIxI3s4v
And here is a tweet from Sajid Javid, responding to one from Piers Morgan.
I can live with that! https://t.co/zSKVt7o5aF
These are from Jeremy Hunt.
We must deliver Brexit. #BBCOurNextPM#ConservativeLeadershipRace#HastobeHunt pic.twitter.com/cpwzVBgFgF
We shouldn't walk away if there's a deal in sight. #HastobeHunt pic.twitter.com/4J4DDfvwgg
Our priority should be to turbo-charge our economy, so we can cut taxes for the worst off and provide more money for our public services. #HastoHunt pic.twitter.com/hXDmOF41Md
These are from Michael Gove.
Really enjoyed tonight's debate and the chance to set out my plan for Brexit and vision for the country. Members should have a choice between two people who believe in Brexit, who can deliver it and who can unite the party #Gove4PM #BBCOurNextPM pic.twitter.com/8vQ5DK5SPB
“We need to crack on and deliver Brexit. We have the opportunity to leave the EU and transform our country for the better. Then we can have an election and say to Jeremy Corbyn ‘you discredited Marxist, get back in the dustbin of history where you belong’” #Gove4PM #BBCOurNextPM pic.twitter.com/gmCtOAhZ2h
Watch the moment in tonight's BBC debate I told Jeremy Corbyn to get back in the dustbin of history 👇#Gove4PM #BBCOurNextPM pic.twitter.com/m7lMLCTZ1X
And this is what political journalists and commentators are saying about the debate on Twitter.
They are not impressed.
From the BBC’s Laura Kuennsberg
With the broadest of brushes - no huge blunders from anyone, Javid on better form, Stewart less impressive than his most excitable supporters might have hoped - no big breakout success or disaster that will transform the numbers
From the Sun’s Tom Newton Dunn
Wow, that was one seriously shouty mess. Boris survived it without too much damage, but took a hefty pummelling. Few answered any questions directly on Brexit. All 5 looked bad by repeatedly talking over @maitlis, doing her level best to separate the rutting stags #BBCOurNextPM
From the BBC’s Nick Robinson
What we learned from tonight’s debate : 1. There’s a reason Johnson has avoiding questioning. He looks vulnerable when challenged 2. Hunt, Gove & Javid are scared of Stewart so they all aimed their fire at him 3. If you thought a new Tory leader would end the squabbling ...
From ITV’s Paul Brand
SNAP VERDICT:- Not as tricky for Boris as could have been. He remained serious and avoided worst of criticism.- Javid better than C4 debate, got big win on Islamophobia - Gove, Hunt solid, but diluted - Stewart true to himself, but this time a little drowned outNobody won.
From the Spectator’s James Forsyth
Tory debate over, no defining moment. Boris gets through it and other candidates make a concerted--and fairly effective--effort to check Rory Stewart's progress
From the BBC’s Andrew Neil
For years Tory Ministers have insisted to me spending on schools has not been cut in real terms. Now they say it has. We should have more leadership elections, more often!
If you’d just arrived from Mars with zero knowledge and watched the last hour you’d never have known Johnson was the front runner.
From the novelist and political writer Robert Harris
If enough people are still watching this debate (doubtful) the Tories will be on single figures in the next round of opinion polls
I think we can now see why Johnson’s camp were so keen to keep him hidden! A great hosing gush of unconvincing waffle whenever he opened his mouth, and a failure to prepare for even the most obvious pitfalls, eg Heathrow.
From the Financial Times’ Robert Shrimsley
God this is abysmal - is it too late to keep Theresa May?
From the Daily Mirror’s Kevin Maguire
That cheering in the background is Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage, unable to believe their luck as they watch the Tory infamous five squabbling #BBCDebate
From the Mail on Sunday’s Harry Cole
Total story free zone. Feel sorry for my daily colleagues trying to make that spicy. But suspect top line take always are: 1: Boris insisting his words on Nazanin made no difference. 2: Rory is quite odd re yoga and stripping. 3: Hunt is doomed.
From the Times’ Jenni Russell
Shocking, evasive display of mediocrity on BBC debate. All dull but UK’s endured 3 years of anguish fear & bitterness just to get that vacant-minded blond egotist Into power. Still not a thought, a strategy or a principle in his head other than Boris First. God help us.
From the FT’s Sebastian Payne
No obvious winner from #BBCOurNextPM. Boris survived, albeit through plenty of waffle. Sajid Javid was a strong debater and asserted himself in the race. Ditto Michael Gove. Rory Stewart struggled to deliver on his parliamentary momentum. Jeremy Hunt had occasional good moments.
From Metro’s Joel Taylor
Boris Johnson was not strong, Rory Stewart not as good as the previous debate but occasionally punchy, Gove strident, Javid very good to get them all to commit to an independent inquiry on Islamophobia in the party & Hunt... not sure #BBCdebate
Here is my colleague Peter Walker’s take on the winners and losers tonight.
BBC Conservative leadership debate – the winners and the losers
This is from Adam Fleming, the BBC’s Brussels correspondent,
Consensus so far from the very few people in Brussels who I can get to admit to watching #OurNextPM is that it was either stuff they've heard before or nothing new that could work.
It is hard to recall any other televised leadership debate that reflected so badly on the party concerned. This went out in a BBC primetime slot and yet, the biggest issue of the day, Brexit, the five people vying to be the next PM singularly failed to allay the concerns that were put to them by viewers. Will no-deal put by husband out of business? Don’t worry, there will be some “economic turbulence”, but we’ll get through it, said Michael Gove. Will you be able to keep the Irish border open? All the candidates said it should be kept open, but none could say how. In fact, on Brexit, no one could answer the how question at all. And, once the topic turned away from Brexit, there were unfunded promises on tax and a general recognition that public services are stretched - without any acknowledgment that the government all five have supported has been responsible. On social media there have been some complaints that Tory leadership coverage crowds out the Labour/opposition perspective, but it is hard to see how anyone at CCHQ might view this as positive coverage for the party. Jeremy Corbyn should be demanding Tory leadership debates on air every night.
Whether this will make any difference to the leadership election is a different matter. Sajid Javid probably had the best night, mostly for the lovely moment when he bounced his reluctant colleagues into agreeing an external inquiry into Islamophobia in the Tory party. This may come to nothing in the end, but Javid looked decisive. If only solving Brexit were that easy. Jeremy Hunt and Michael Gove both did relatively okay. As the candidate with the most distinctive message on Brexit, and on taxation and public services, Rory Stewart would probably win the support of the 50% of the public on that side of the argument. But they are not well represented in the Conservative party, and his evasive answer in response to Javid’s probing on the President Trump/Katie Hopkins tweet probably lost him a lot of ground with liberal Britain. Boris Johnson probably had the worst night. His attempt to excuse his gaffe about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was an obvious mistake. (Even if, as he claimed, his words did not make a difference to her incarceration, that was not the argument to make - he should have just said he made a mistake, and was sorry.) On Brexit he was unconvincing (as was everyone else.) And forgetting the imam’s name was a very trivial mishap, but it was one that appeared to confirm a negative view many people have of him - that he has a casual disregard for some people who are not white.
Debates don’t make as much difference as people think, and Johnson remains the overall favourite to become next prime minister. But leadership contests are supposed to invigorate a party and leave it looking more attractive to the public. On the basis of tonight, it is hard to see that happening to the Conservatives this summer.Debates don’t make as much difference as people think, and Johnson remains the overall favourite to become next prime minister. But leadership contests are supposed to invigorate a party and leave it looking more attractive to the public. On the basis of tonight, it is hard to see that happening to the Conservatives this summer.
Q: If you become PM, you will have no mandate from the public. When will you do the right thing and call an election?Q: If you become PM, you will have no mandate from the public. When will you do the right thing and call an election?
Johnson says the Labour party don’t want an election. He does not think anyone in the Commons wants one.Johnson says the Labour party don’t want an election. He does not think anyone in the Commons wants one.
Q: But you said, when Gordon Brown took over as PM, it was arrogant not to have an election. What is different?Q: But you said, when Gordon Brown took over as PM, it was arrogant not to have an election. What is different?
Johnson says this is different. The next leader will be taking over at a time of crisis.Johnson says this is different. The next leader will be taking over at a time of crisis.
Hunt says there must be no election until the government has delivered Brexit.Hunt says there must be no election until the government has delivered Brexit.
Stewart says there must be no election until they have recovered trust.Stewart says there must be no election until they have recovered trust.
Gove says after Brexit the government can address other things. And then the Tories can take on Jeremy Corbyn, a “discredited Marxist”.Gove says after Brexit the government can address other things. And then the Tories can take on Jeremy Corbyn, a “discredited Marxist”.
Javid says they must deliver Brexit first.Javid says they must deliver Brexit first.
By 31 October, says Johnson.By 31 October, says Johnson.
And that’s it.And that’s it.
Javid says his 16-year-old daughter has asked him about this a lot.Javid says his 16-year-old daughter has asked him about this a lot.
We have done a lot, but “nowhere near enough”. Becoming carbon neutral will take time. But we need to be a lot more ambitious.We have done a lot, but “nowhere near enough”. Becoming carbon neutral will take time. But we need to be a lot more ambitious.
The questioner says none of the panel has impressed her.The questioner says none of the panel has impressed her.
Q: Would you commit to getting net carbon emissions down to zero by 2025?
Johnson says he will commit to putting the environment at the heart of his programme.
Gove says he has met and praised Greta Thunberg. He has a 25-year environment plan.
Q: [To Johnson] Will you stop Heathrow expansion?
Johnson says he continues to have “grave reservations” about this.
Q: Will you stop it?
Johnson says he has “grave concerns”. There are court cases under way, he says. He will follow them closely.
Johnson refuses to say he would stop the Heathrow third runway going ahead - even though in the past he has opposed it strongly.
Javid asks Stewart why he was not willing to criticise Trump over the Katie Hopkins speech. Stewart is on the defensive, and stresses the importance of diplomacy.
Q: I’m the Imam of a mosque. I see the impact of Islamophobia. Do you accept words have consequences?
Johnson says of course he does. In so far as people have taken words out of his articles and escalated, he is sorry for that. But his Muslim great-grandfather came to this country because he thought it would be a beacon of decency.
He forgets the name of the questioner (Abdullah).
Q: Do you accept words have consequences. Your words about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe did?
Johnson says in this case, he does not think his words did have consequences. It was the Iranian regime that is responsible for what happened to Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
Q: [To Hunt] And you have endorsed President Trump retweeting comments from Katie Hopkins.
Hunt says that is wrong. He backed Trump’s point about Sadiq Khan having a poor record on crime. But he totally rejects Katie Hopkins’ inflammatory language.
He says he is married to an immigrant. His children are half-Chinese. But when they go to school they are treated as equals, because we are a tolerant society.
Javid says he would be happy for an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Tory party.
He invites the others: ‘Do you all agree?’ Half-heartedly, most of them seem to. That’s it then, says Javid. He says it will happen.
Javid appears to bounce his rivals into accepting an external investigation into Islamophobia in the Conservative party.
Stewart says the adult social care system is a disgrace.
We have not funded it properly because we have not got out of party silos, he says.
Gove asks: “What is your plan?”
He says the plan is there in the Dilnot plan.
Hunt says some of the cuts in social care went too far.
Hunt says his own government has cut the social care budget too much.
Local authorities need more, he says.
He says we leave dealing with mental health too late.
He says too many children leave school without being able to read and write properly.
Johnson says we need to invest much more in education. And we need to join up our mental health system, he says.
Stewart says you need taxes to fund public services.
He says we can plan for how AI and robotics will change the world of work.
Javid says he has relied on public services.
Q: But you supported cuts?
Javid says he would prioritise health and education.
Tax cuts can sometimes lead to more revenue, he says.
And the country can afford to borrow more, he says.
Q: I have fostered more than 100 children. What would you do to reverse cuts that have affected children?
Gove says he started his life in care.
He says he has a detailed plan to target money on the poorest.
Q: What cuts would you reverse?
Gove says he introduced changes that make adoption easier. He will not reverse those.
Gove says he is the candidate most committed to working people.
He says Johnson’s tax plan, which would help people like MPs, is wrong.
He says Jeremy Corbyn is not interested in standing up for working people. He is only interested in defending Iran.
Stewart says everyone else in the contest is promising things that are not realistic. Collectively, his rivals have promised cuts worth £84bn. He says it is not the time for tax cuts. If he could deliver a realistic Brexit, he would spend money on public services.
The questioner says he thinks Hunt was the candidate talking most sense. He says he disagreed strongly with Stewart.
Q: I used to vote Tory, but now vote for the Brexit party. What is your plan to lift the tax burden on the working classes?
Javid says the government has addressed the deficit. He thinks we can now cut taxes for working people. He would do this by cutting the basic rate of tax.
Q: [To Hunt] You have said your priority is to cut corporation tax. But it has been cut a lot already, almost every year.
Hunt says cutting corporation tax would turbo-charge the economy. People say the Tories are the party of the rich. They must never fall into the trap of encouraging this idea.
Q: [To Johnson] Under your plan, people on £79,000 would not be in the higher tax rate?
Johnson says, as mayor of London, he increased the minimum wage.
But he also favours having a debate about the threshold for the higher rate of tax. He says people like nurses should not be in this bracket.
Q: Would it definitely go ahead?
Johnson says his priority would be to raise the tax threshold. But it is right to have an “ambition” to lift the threshold for the higher rate of tax.
Johnson appears to scale back his commitment to raising the higher rate tax threshold, describing it as just an “ambition”.
The questioner says the panel have not answered his question. There is a lot of confusion about this in Northern Ireland, he says. He hopes there will be more clarity in future.