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EU referendum live: Boris Johnson v Sadiq Khan in the BBC's Great Debate
EU referendum live: Boris Johnson v Sadiq Khan in the BBC's Great Debate
(35 minutes later)
9.45pm BST
21:45
Dimbleby ends by saying he hopes this has clarified some of the issues.
The debate is now effectively over. The last 15 minutes are devoted to what is being said from the spin room.
(I can save you the bother of watching. Remain supporters think their side did best, and Leave say the same about their team.)
9.43pm BST
21:43
We are now onto the closing questions.
Ruth Davidson says we cannot be confidence that Leave have all the answers that we need. And you need to be 100% confident to vote leave. The Britain she loves does not walk away from other countries. She, Sadiq and Frances all agree we are better off in. Vote Remain, she says.
Boris Johnson says there is a very clear choice between those on the other side, who offer fear, and Leave, who offer hope. The other side run the country down. We believe in Britain, he says. He says Remain say we must bow down to Brussels. He says Leave believe they can take control. If we stand up for democracy, we will be speaking up for hundreds of people around Europe who have no voice. If we vote Leave, this Thursday can be our country’s independence day.
9.39pm BST
21:39
Britain's place in the world questions - Snap verdict
Remain were more impressive. As a debate, this whole show has been chaotic, but the best performers have used it to unleash forceful, punchy soundbites at the appropriate moments and in this section we had clips from Khan (on 7/7, and how they London mayor has to cooperate with Europe) and from Davidson (on why she listens to security experts and on what made her join the TA) that easily deserve to be included in any round-up of the highlights of the debate.
9.34pm BST
21:34
Sadiq Khan challenges Leave to name a single ally that thinks we should leave the EU.
Gisela Stuart says EU allies are not paying their contribution to Nato.
Well stay and fight, Khan replies (or rather shouts). We’re not quitters, he says (echoing David Cameron.)
Ruth Davidson says she was sent to the Balkans as a reporter. She was never more proud of being British. It encouraged her to join up and serve. (She was in the Territorial Army.) While she has respect for Lord Guthrie, all the serving military chiefs say we are safer in the EU, she says.
Andrea Leadsom says let’s get back to the EU five presidents report.
That’s not what the questioner asked, says Davidson.
Leadsom says the five presidents want an EU army.
9.30pm BST
21:30
Frances O’Grady says many trade unionists have supported the peace process in Northern Ireland. The Irish prime minister has said there will have to be border controls if the UK leaves the EU.
Boris Johnson says the EU is going in the wrong direction. He remembers what happened when the EU tried to sort out what was happening in the Balkans. It was a disaster, he says. About a million people died. The situation was only improved when the US took charge.
The European court of justice is saying that we cannot deport the people we want to, he says.
Updated
at 9.34pm BST
9.27pm BST
21:27
Question from a remain supporter: Is it a coincidence that the EU has combined with the longest period of peace in Europe?
Gisela Stuart says a former Interpol head says the EU is not making us safe.
Ruth Davidson says it is not a coincidence. She says the other side do not like experts, but she thinks that when it comes to security, we should listen to experts. She lists some of them, and says she will listen to them, and vote for them every day, and twice on a Sunday.
Andrea Leadsom quotes experts saying EU security rests on Nato. Lord Guthrie said it was not the EU that kept Europe safe, but the leadership of the US.
Updated
at 9.33pm BST
9.24pm BST
21:24
Khan says he chooses to work with Europe on a number of issues, and he has to keep London safe. On 7/7 the city was attacked. He says one of the bombers fled abroad, but the European arrest warrant allowed him to be returned.
Updated
at 9.31pm BST
9.23pm BST
21:23
Question five: United States of Europe
We are now onto the section about Britain’s place in the world.
Question from a leave supporter: Forty years ago we voted for the Common Market. If we vote to remain, how do we know we won’t end up in a United states of Europe.
Boris Johnson says the European court of justice is the supreme legal authority in this country. It even affects divorce laws.
Q: Will a United States of Europe happen?
Johnson says John Major said a single currency had all the force of a rain dance, but it happened.
Ruth Davidson says Leadsom said 60% of our laws are made in Europe. That is not true, she says.
She says the other side have constantly lied about Europe. It is not good enough, she says. You deserve the truth.
Gisela Stuart says that if the prime minister will not veto Turkey joining the EU, what will he veto?
She says the EU is holding back a number of measures until after the referendum, like a Europe-wide tax number.
Updated
at 9.30pm BST
9.14pm BST
9.14pm BST
21:14
21:14
Immigration questions: snap verdict
Immigration questions: snap verdict
This is a complex question, and it deserves a proper debate, and we are not having it tonight, said Ruth Davidson. Too right.
This is a complex question and it deserves a proper debate, and we are not having it tonight, said Ruth Davidson. Too right.
Still, if we did not get a proper debate, we got some sort of shoutfest, and although Leave probably had the best of i. Boris Johnson, who is projecting authority tonight and doing well, made a mark when he invited Frances O’Grady to “come over” and later said the Remain panel agree with him about the need for further controls. Leave generally win on immigration because Remain are reluctant to defend uncontrolled immigration, but cannot credibly explain how controls will work. That said, Remain tried two defensive ploys. Attacking Leave over extremism did not seem to hit home (although Leave never answered the question about the BNP donation properly) but their charge that Leave’s stance is a con, because they will not commit to cutting immigration, did carry force.
What we did get was a sort of shoutfest, and leave probably had the best of it. Boris Johnson, who is projecting authority tonight and doing well, made a mark when he invited Frances O’Grady to “come over” and later said the remain panel agreed with him about the need for further controls. Leave generally win on immigration because remain are reluctant to defend uncontrolled immigration, but cannot credibly explain how they will control it. That said, remain tried two defensive ploys. Attacking leave over extremism did not seem to hit home effectively, although leave never answered the question about the BNP donation properly, but their charge that leave’s stance is a con because they will not commit to cutting immigration did carry force.
The debate has got livelier, with Khan’s “Project Hate” line likely to make the headlines, althought it is still less personalised than the ITV one.
The debate has got livelier, with Khan’s “Project Hate” line likely to make the headlines, although it is still less personalised than the ITV one.
But it has not got more illuminating. The exchanges bear so little relation to the questions that one wonders why Dimbleby bothers to ask them.
But it has not got more illuminating. The exchanges bear so little relation to the questions that one wonders why Dimbleby bothers to ask them.
Updated
at 9.26pm BST
9.05pm BST
9.05pm BST
21:05
21:05
Leadsom says the only way we will ever get immigration under control is by voting leave.
Leadsom says the only way we will ever get immigration under control is by voting leave.
Updated
Updated
at 9.08pm BST
at 9.08pm BST
9.04pm BST
21:04
Davidson says immigration is a complex problem. It deserves a grownup argument. We are not having that tonight, she says.
Updated
at 9.06pm BST
9.04pm BST
21:04
Davidson says immigration does need to be controlled. It used to be the case that you could come and claim from day one, but that has changed, she says.
She says you do not fund schools and hospitals by crashing the economy.
Stuart says if we vote leave and take back control, we will have a £10bn dividend to spend. She says every family knows the pressure on doctors.
Khan says immigration is a concern, but leaving the EU is not the answer.
It is, says Leadsom.
Khan asks how we will have more control if we are poorer. How will we have more control if businesses go elsewhere. How will we have more control if young people do not have the chances we do.
Johnson says there is a lot of agreement here tonight. He says the other side say we need to control immigration. Jeremy Corbyn says we cannot control immigration if we are in the EU. The only way to take back control is to leave.
O’Grady says it is bit rich of Johnson to go on about low wages when his government has frozen public sector pay. She says Johnson is not promising to cut numbers. It is a con.
Rubbish, says Johnson.
Q: Have you promised to reduce numbers?
Stuart says a points system would allow the government to take back control.
Khan says we need a plan, not a slogan.
So you are not promising, says O’Grady. It’s a con.
Updated
at 9.08pm BST
8.57pm BST
20:57
Question four: public services
Question from a leave supporter: As a young working class man I feel at the back of the queue for housing and public services. How many immigrants can we cope with?
O’Grady says we need to manage immigration better.
Come over, says Johnson.
O’Grady says politicians should handle these matters better. They can legislate on wages. She gets fed up with migrants being blamed. The problem was greedy banker crashing the economy, she says.
Stuart says uncontrolled immigration allows firms to get away with not investing in training.
Updated
at 9.03pm BST
8.54pm BST
20:54
Khan says he wants to deal with this big fat lie once and for all. Turkey is not about to join, and until two months ago Johnson knew that. Turkey has only completed one accession chapter. At this rate it will not join until the year 3000.
Johnson says he is a Turk.
Updated
at 9.00pm BST
8.53pm BST
20:53
Ruth Davidson says it is tempting to think there is one single silver bullet.
There is, says Johnson. It’s take back control.
Davidson says the points-based system would lead to more immigration.
Johnson says he wants to respond to the unnecessary invective on the other side. He quotes someone saying politicians were too quick in the past to dismiss concerns about immigration. It was Khan, he says.
Khan says there are legitimate concerns that need to be addressed, but Johnson is scaring people. He says Vote Leave are saying Turkey is set to join. He holds up a Vote Leave leaflet naming Syria and Iraq, implying they might join. That is scaremongering.
Stuart says she would like to know who the real David Cameron is. He says Turkey will not join until the year 3000, but the government is prompting Turkish accession.
Davidson says Turkish accession is not going to happen. It is not on the cards. That is what Boris said two months ago. What has changed?
It is government policy, he says.
Updated
at 9.00pm BST
8.48pm BST
20:48
Question three: the NHS
We are now onto immigration.
Question from a remain supporter: How will the NHS cope if we leave the EU?
Boris Johnson says he wants to celebrate the role played by immigrants, but we need to take back control.
Sadiq Khan says he wants to take the unusual step of praising the deal Cameron achieved. He accuses Johnson of running not Project Fear, but Project Hate.
Frances O’Grady says today we learnt Vote Leave took a £600,000 donation from a former BNP member. Will they pay it back?
Andrea Leadsom says that is “unworthy of this debate”. There are millions of people with concerns about immigration who want to vote leave. As a mum, she has concerns about security.
Updated
at 8.57pm BST
8.40pm BST
20:40
Economy questions: snap verdict
Was this really such a good idea? After half an hour, it feels as if this debate will only have confused people. Because it has not been so much of a debate as a soundbite-spouting contest. There were relatively few moments where the participants seemed to engage with what their opponents were saying.
As a result, it did not feel as if either side won, but that in itself is a good result for leave - because if remain cannot hammer them on this, then they are going to struggle to make headway on anything. That said, Frances O’Grady was impressive, because her expertise shone through. Gisela Stuart, however, made perhaps one of the best points so far when she said Britain did not need Brussels to legislate for women’s rights. Ruth Davidson and Sadiq Khan were the most combative, although perhaps one of the biggest contrasts with the ITV debate is remain’s reluctance to personalise their attacks on Johnson.
Updated
at 8.46pm BST
8.34pm BST
20:34
Khan says the eurozone is growing faster than the US, and that our economy is enhanced by being in the EU.
Johnson says it beggars belief that remain are unable to think of a single directive they would get rid of. The EU is a job-destroying machine. Just tonight Tate & Lyle said they wanted to leave. He says we cannot protect Tata jobs because Brussels says no.
Davidson says leave are just asking people to trust them. They unable to say how many jobs will go, or what the trade arrangements will be. Obama said we would go to the back of the queue on trade.
Leadsom says 80% of the world’s economy is not in the single market. She says 28 member states cannot even organise a take-away curry, let alone trade deals.
Khan says when you are 5ft 6 you don’t often say size matters, but it does with trade deals. If we left the EU, we would suffer. He says Johnson should know better. London businesses rely on the EU. Boris, why have you suddenly changed your mind?
Johnson says we have heard an amazing amount of running down. Remain underestimate our ability to do better deals if we are on our own. He says our entire trade policy is determined by the EU, where only 3.8% of officials are British.
Davidson tries to interrupt. He won’t let her. Because of the EU, we cannot export haggis to the US, he says.
Davidson challenges him to name one country in the world that has said it will offer a better trade deal.
Updated
at 8.43pm BST
8.27pm BST
20:27
Question two: workers' rights
We are now taking the second question on the economy.
Question from a remain supporter: As a black woman, I am grateful for the employment protections the EU offers. Will leaving be a slippery slope to lower standards?
Leadsom says the UK has led the way in guaranteeing rights. We do not need EU leaders we cannot name to guarantee rights.
O’Grady says too often we hear the words red tape, and what that means is getting rid of rights. Those rights were not gifted to us. People fought for them, and the EU guarantees them. People need to understand that they cover things such as the right to take time off if a child is ill. She says 2 million people got paid holidays as a result of an EU directive. Can leave guarantee that these rights will be protected?
Yes, says Johnson.
Stuart says she has been a trade unionist for 45 years. She finds the argument that we need Brussels to protect rights extraordinary.
Khan says Stuart is wrong. Every time he and Stuart have voted for workers’s rights, they - leave Tories have voted the other way. He says Priti Patel, the pro-Brexit employment minister, has said she would like to halve workers’ regulations.
Stuart says the most important right is the right to a job. We will never succeed when shackled to the eurozone.
Updated
at 8.35pm BST
8.22pm BST
20:22
Khan says all the experts say the economy would suffer if we leave. It is not unreasonable for a mum and dad worried about bills to ask what the plan is. A slogan is not a detailed plan. How would you make sure jobs won’t suffer, he asks. What is your plan?
Leadsom says we are spending billions that go into a big black hole. All remain talk about is Project Fear. The EU has done a terrible job negotiating free trade deals.
