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| Michaelia Cash says AWU raid leak should be referred to federal police – politics live | |
| (35 minutes later) | |
| 11.29pm BST | |
| 23:29 | |
| Ian Macdonald continues to attempt to interrupt the proceedings. | |
| “Up to your old tricks,” Murray Watt quips. | |
| Linda Reynolds tells him to stop interrupting, unless he has a point of order. | |
| Macdonald, who when he chairs a meeting, attempts to shut down opposition questioning at every opportunity, and keeps an ipad timer which, for non-government committee members speaking time, abides by religiously, again attempts to shut down the questioning. | |
| “It is not constant interjection madam chair, asking what conversations happened between the Prime Minister and a minister is the first time I’ve ever heard this to be allowed in Senate Estimates committee,” he says. | |
| “That is not a point of order. It is up to the minister to answer it in whatever way she chooses,” Reynolds replies. | |
| The committee has come back today specifically to deal with this issue. | |
| 11.25pm BST | |
| 23:25 | |
| Michaelia Cash then makes a point of defending David De Garis: | |
| Can I also just say, Chair, in relation to this particular staff member, [whose name she said has been made unfortunately public] it is actually very brave of him to also come forward and to admit his mistake and lose his employment as a result of what he did. Unlike many others who lie every single day of the week, I will not get into that now but this staff member came forward and admitted to me he had mislead me. | |
| 11.24pm BST | |
| 23:24 | |
| Senator Ian Macdonald attempts to shut down the line of questioning. | |
| “How can you possibly allow a question that has nothing to do with the estimates before us where this person is asking what conversations they had with staff and with the Prime Minister. That is simply not allowable and you might ask the clerk for some advice.” | |
| Linda Reynolds shuts him down immediately and returns to Labor’s questioning. | |
| “That is editorial, that is not a point of order. Senator Cameron.” | |
| 11.21pm BST | |
| 23:21 | |
| Cash said it did not occur to her there had been a leak when she saw the AWU raids on television, as “you often turn on the TV at night and see a police or journalistic presence at something”. | |
| She brings up Penny Wong’s staffer Marcus Ganley and his actions during the New Zealand/Barnaby Joyce citizenship saga: | |
| My staff member mislead me. I am incredibly disappointed. I am assuming as Senator Wong was when she found out about her staff member and the fact that they had had discussions with the Labour Party in New Zealand. As Senator Wong also stated in all of the evidence she gave, she was not aware. I gave evidence yesterday. I was not aware. I am very, very disappointed now in my staff member and as a result he has resigned his employment.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.27pm BST | |
| 11.18pm BST | |
| 23:18 | |
| Doug Cameron is now questioning Cash over what she knew and when: | |
| Around 11:00am I asked you when you or your office or the department were advised about the warrant and you indicated that: ‘I’d need to go and check with my office but I would assume 4:30, 4:45, whenever, I was in a meeting and came back.’ I asked again whether you of your office advised any other person about the raid and you answered: ‘No.’ | |
| I asked whether you were confident that no one in your office knew about this and you indicated: ‘I’d have to go and check with my office.’ I asked again, ‘Did you advise any journalist about any issue arising from this last night?’ You said, ‘I’d need to speak with my office but I don’t believe so, no.’ | |
| I then asked: ‘So did any ministerial office staff know about the raid and tell anyone about the raid before it commenced?’ And after being pressed you said: ‘I have full faith in my staff, senator Cameron.’ Do you still have full faith in your staff?” | |
| Cash responded: | |
| I stand by the evidence that I gave at the time. The evidence that I gave was based on the knowledge that I possessed at the time. As I advised you yesterday, during the dinner break yesterday I sought further assurances from my staff and I was advised, as it is now public knowledge, that without my knowledge one staff member in my office, in the course of discussions with journalists indicated that he had received information that a raid may take place. | |
| As I said yesterday, he conveyed that to journalists. I was not aware of it at the time and I was not aware of it when I gave those answers yesterday in estimates. All answers that I gave were based on the knowledge that I had at the time. At the earliest opportunity I came to this committee and I advised that I had been made aware that a staff member had unfortunately mislead me.” | |
| Michaelia Cash says she was unable to get on to the staffer who resigned last night. Funny, I got through to him pretty easily. | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.26pm BST | |
| 11.14pm BST | |
| 23:14 | |
| Michaelia Cash said she was unable to get in contact with her staffer when the hearing adjourned last night. She said it was “always sad when a staff member has to leave”. | |
| 11.12pm BST | |
| 23:12 | |
| Tanya Plibersek has joined the chorus calling for Michaelia Cash to resign: | |
| Explosive revelations in the Senate last night show the employment minister, Michaelia Cash, misled the parliament on five occasions. It is extraordinary to have a minister repeatedly mislead in the way that she did, and it is inconceivable that the minister did not know that her office was involved in tipping off journalists about a police raid. Of course, ministers have resigned for much less than this. Ministers have resigned for misleading once. It is absolutely inconceivable that the minister didn’t know about the involvement of her office. She should resign. And I expect that she will have resigned by the end of the day. But if she hasn’t, the prime minister should sack her. He should show some leadership, show that he demands high standards of his ministers, and take action himself.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.18pm BST | |
| 11.11pm BST | |
| 23:11 | |
| Minister recommends matter is referred to the AFP | |
| Michaelia Cash has written to the Registered Organisations Commission suggesting the matter be referred to the Australian federal police. | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.16pm BST | |
| 11.07pm BST | |
| 23:07 | |
| Paul Karp | |
| At the conclusion of Wednesday’s hearing a lot of Labor’s questioning was directed at what Fair Work Ombudsman media adviser Mark Lee knew about the AFP raid. | |
| Lee worked with the new Registered Organisations Commission’s media adviser, who has only been in the role two weeks. ROC executive director, Chris Enright, told estimates Lee’s role was to help the new adviser and it was “reasonable” to conclude that if something big like a raid were in the offing they would have collaborated. | |
| Enright said that the ROC media adviser knew about the raid at 4pm, but said he was “confident” that is not the source of the leak. | |
| Questioning from Senator Kimberley Kitching noted that Lee worked with one of Michaelia Cash’s media advisers (the one who hasn’t resigned, by the way) in former Victorian premier Dennis Napthine’s office. | |
| Doug Cameron flagged a desire to recall the FWO, so expect Lee to be a person of interest in today’s questioning. | |
| Guardian Australia has contacted Lee for comment. | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.15pm BST | |
| 11.07pm BST | |
| 23:07 | |
| The committee has returned | |
| Chair Linda Reynolds (Lib) is opening proceedings. | |
| 11.06pm BST | |
| 23:06 | |
| Tony Burke disagreed, telling Sky her position was untenable: | |
| Here is what we are meant to believe, that Michaelia Cash misled the Senate five times on what she herself said was a very serious allegation that she was offended to hear. We are meant to believe her office watched her do that and didn’t tell her what had happened. What was revealed last night ... was before question time, Michaelia Cash went specifically to the prime minister and the person from her staff who has now left her office, who advised the media, was with her at the meeting with the prime minister and she went to the prime minister to respond to allegations that had been made yesterday morning by Anthony Albanese ... it was the allegation that her office had been calling the media about the raid. | |
| We are meant to believe that with the member of staff who made those calls there with her, Michaelia Cash told the prime minister, ‘oh, with the Anthony Albanese allegation, I never made any calls’, and we are meant to believe that Malcolm Turnbull as a trained cross-examiner, never said ‘no, no, the allegation is about your office and your officer is there with you’. Either Malcolm Turnbull did ask and we’re not being told, or he knew to not ask. It defies belief that an allegation about her office, when she’s misled the Senate five times, that her office don’t tell her ‘hang on, this is what has happened’, that they then go with her to the prime minister of Australia and he as a trained cross-examiner doesn’t go ‘oh hang on the allegation is about your office, not about you.’ This defies belief.” | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.10pm BST | |
| 10.59pm BST | |
| 22:59 | |
| Darren Chester has also been out on Sky News defending Cash. | |
| There is no question it is a bad result for us when you have a senior member of staff resigning, making an error of judgment, that as I described at the very start of our conversation, it is not the first time it has occurred, the former prime minister’s media advisor unfortunately tipped off protesters at Australia Day 2012 (to Tony Abbott’s location) and resigned at the time and the prime minister continued in the role. I think it is over reach by Labor to say minister Cash has done anything wrong. | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.05pm BST | |
| 10.55pm BST | 10.55pm BST |
| 22:55 | 22:55 |
| But someone may have failed to advise Christopher Pyne of Mark Bielecki’s correction. Here is some of what he had to say at a brief press conference this morning, where he repeated the incorrect information (as corrected by Bielecki) that the AWU did not cooperate when first asked: | But someone may have failed to advise Christopher Pyne of Mark Bielecki’s correction. Here is some of what he had to say at a brief press conference this morning, where he repeated the incorrect information (as corrected by Bielecki) that the AWU did not cooperate when first asked: |
| This is not a Joh Bjelke-Petersen moment on the 7.30 Report. I’m not going to let this cloud the issue here. I’m sure the Labor party would vastly prefer us to be talking about the Westminster system of government – not one with which they’ve had a close attachment, by the way, over the last few decades – but nevertheless the issue here is that the AWU didn’t pass over the documents that were required to the Registered Organisations Commission to prove that the law had not been breached. Bill Shorten has never cooperated, not with you in the fourth estate and not with the Registered Organisations Commission in handing over these documents from the very beginning. Now, many of you may have been at press conferences with Bill Shorten where you’ve asked him time and again about these payments and how they were approved and why they were made and how he was on the board of GetUp as well as being the national secretary of the AWU and the conflicts of interest involved and he never answered your questions. So you have just as much of an interest in the Registered Organisations Commission and theAustralian public in getting to the bottom of this matter. | |
| Updated | |
| at 11.07pm BST | |
| 10.50pm BST | 10.50pm BST |
| 22:50 | 22:50 |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.52pm BST | at 10.52pm BST |
| 10.45pm BST | 10.45pm BST |
| 22:45 | 22:45 |
| ROC forced to correct the record | ROC forced to correct the record |
| The head of the Registered Organisations Commission, Mark Bielecki, also fronted the estimates hearing overnight. | The head of the Registered Organisations Commission, Mark Bielecki, also fronted the estimates hearing overnight. |
| He gave a brief rundown of the investigation into the AWU, and in answer to a question from Labor senator Kimberly Kitching, said the organisation had asked the union for the documents in question but received a letter from their lawyers declining to pass them on. | He gave a brief rundown of the investigation into the AWU, and in answer to a question from Labor senator Kimberly Kitching, said the organisation had asked the union for the documents in question but received a letter from their lawyers declining to pass them on. |
| But later, he corrected the record. | But later, he corrected the record. |
| Bielecki: Senator Kitching can I just go back to an answer I gave you previously when I said that not all notices to produce had been fulfilled by the AWU? That’s not correct. I got them confused with a different registered organisation. So, I withdraw that answer. | Bielecki: Senator Kitching can I just go back to an answer I gave you previously when I said that not all notices to produce had been fulfilled by the AWU? That’s not correct. I got them confused with a different registered organisation. So, I withdraw that answer. |
| Kitching: : So, just to be clear, you’ve withdrawn that answer, so there is full compliance, why did you not use an Notice to produce when the AWU has always complied with every notice to produce that has always been served, why did you decide on a raid? | Kitching: : So, just to be clear, you’ve withdrawn that answer, so there is full compliance, why did you not use an Notice to produce when the AWU has always complied with every notice to produce that has always been served, why did you decide on a raid? |
| Bielecki: As Mr Enright has said, we are not discuss that further. | Bielecki: As Mr Enright has said, we are not discuss that further. |
| The reason for the raid, the committee was told later, was because the ROC had received a phone call to a ROC staffer, who advised them there was a risk documents may be destroyed. | The reason for the raid, the committee was told later, was because the ROC had received a phone call to a ROC staffer, who advised them there was a risk documents may be destroyed. |
| There were no details given on the identity of the caller, or the ROC staffer who took the call. | There were no details given on the identity of the caller, or the ROC staffer who took the call. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.51pm BST | at 10.51pm BST |
| 10.35pm BST | 10.35pm BST |
| 22:35 | 22:35 |
| How we got here | How we got here |
| Last night, employment Michaelia Cash defended the (five) times she denied that either she or her office had anything to do with the leak as saying she was unaware of her senior advisor, David De Garis’s actions. Despite spending a large portion of the day refuting her office had anything to do with the leak. | Last night, employment Michaelia Cash defended the (five) times she denied that either she or her office had anything to do with the leak as saying she was unaware of her senior advisor, David De Garis’s actions. Despite spending a large portion of the day refuting her office had anything to do with the leak. |
| “Quite frankly, I am offended on behalf of my staff as to those allegations. They are very serious allegations,” Cash said at one point. | “Quite frankly, I am offended on behalf of my staff as to those allegations. They are very serious allegations,” Cash said at one point. |
| Then Buzzfeed published this story. | Then Buzzfeed published this story. |
| Cash was still in front of the estimates committee, as the government members were filibustering the hearing, to push back when the Registered Organisations Commission was due to appear. Labor senator Doug Cameron began questioning Cash over the story. She said she had not read it, but stood by her earlier denials. The committee went on break. | Cash was still in front of the estimates committee, as the government members were filibustering the hearing, to push back when the Registered Organisations Commission was due to appear. Labor senator Doug Cameron began questioning Cash over the story. She said she had not read it, but stood by her earlier denials. The committee went on break. |
| Cash returned from the break and made a statement that her staffer, De Garis, had resigned after telling her he had passed on details of the raid to journalists, after learning of the event from “a media source”. | Cash returned from the break and made a statement that her staffer, De Garis, had resigned after telling her he had passed on details of the raid to journalists, after learning of the event from “a media source”. |
| This was after Buzzfeed had called for comment. And after Cash advised the prime minister that her office was not responsible, a declaration Malcolm Turnbull repeated during question time. | This was after Buzzfeed had called for comment. And after Cash advised the prime minister that her office was not responsible, a declaration Malcolm Turnbull repeated during question time. |
| Labor senator Murray Watt found it almost impossible to believe that her staff let her make the denials without coming forward. | Labor senator Murray Watt found it almost impossible to believe that her staff let her make the denials without coming forward. |
| Over the course of today, since you have begun making these denials, there has been a morning tea break, a lunch break, an afternoon tea break, You are sitting there with an iPad, a laptop and a mobile phone and not at any point did your staff bring this to your attention, until the dinner break.” | |
| “That is correct,” Cash said. | “That is correct,” Cash said. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.29pm BST | |
| 10.17pm BST | 10.17pm BST |
| 22:17 | 22:17 |
| The Greens are joining Labor in calling for Michaelia Cash to go: | The Greens are joining Labor in calling for Michaelia Cash to go: |
| Here is what Adam Bandt had to say this morning: | Here is what Adam Bandt had to say this morning: |
| Well, Michaelia Cash’s position is untenable. Here’s what we now know: on Tuesday, Minister Cash’s senior staffer tipped off media about raids that were about to occur. On Wednesday morning, minister Cash spent some time with that senior staffer and then fronted up to the Senate and said, not once, but five times, that neither she nor her staff had anything to do with it. It turns out that was completely untrue. So there’s really only three options – either minister Cash is incompetent at running an office, in which case she should resign as minister. Secondly, she either doesn’t care whether she tells the truth to the Senate, in which case she should resign at minister. Or, thirdly, she deliberately lied to the Senate, in which case, she should resign as minister. | Well, Michaelia Cash’s position is untenable. Here’s what we now know: on Tuesday, Minister Cash’s senior staffer tipped off media about raids that were about to occur. On Wednesday morning, minister Cash spent some time with that senior staffer and then fronted up to the Senate and said, not once, but five times, that neither she nor her staff had anything to do with it. It turns out that was completely untrue. So there’s really only three options – either minister Cash is incompetent at running an office, in which case she should resign as minister. Secondly, she either doesn’t care whether she tells the truth to the Senate, in which case she should resign at minister. Or, thirdly, she deliberately lied to the Senate, in which case, she should resign as minister. |
| These were highly politicised raids, which we said so – we said that from the start. This has been, there’s been raids orchestrated by someone who is not a watchdog, but is an attack dog. And it turns out that the minister and her office were up to their neck in it and then were quite happy to go and mislead the Senate about what they knew. Her position is completely untenable. | These were highly politicised raids, which we said so – we said that from the start. This has been, there’s been raids orchestrated by someone who is not a watchdog, but is an attack dog. And it turns out that the minister and her office were up to their neck in it and then were quite happy to go and mislead the Senate about what they knew. Her position is completely untenable. |
| As for the convention, Bandt had this to say: | As for the convention, Bandt had this to say: |
| At some point, the Westminster system has to kick in and ministers have to take responsibility for the departments that they’re running and the staff who are underneath them and it’s not good enough to try and find scapegoats. If you’re prepared to walk into the Senate and tell them, five times, that you or your staff had nothing to do with it and then, um, after having spent the day with the staffer in question, then you either are incompetent or you’re prepared to, um, mislead the Senate. Either way, the minister has got to go. What we also need to now get to the bottom of is another very, very serious question – who told the minister’s office that the raids were about to occur? Because there’s potentially – it’s potentially a criminal offence to do that. We need to get a straight answer to that. The fact that the minister is not interested in finding out the answer to that question speaks volumes about this. And we hope to find out, very, very soon, the full story behind this, because potentially there’s been a criminal – been criminal offences committed. But there’s certainly, certainly been misconduct that demands that the minister must go. | At some point, the Westminster system has to kick in and ministers have to take responsibility for the departments that they’re running and the staff who are underneath them and it’s not good enough to try and find scapegoats. If you’re prepared to walk into the Senate and tell them, five times, that you or your staff had nothing to do with it and then, um, after having spent the day with the staffer in question, then you either are incompetent or you’re prepared to, um, mislead the Senate. Either way, the minister has got to go. What we also need to now get to the bottom of is another very, very serious question – who told the minister’s office that the raids were about to occur? Because there’s potentially – it’s potentially a criminal offence to do that. We need to get a straight answer to that. The fact that the minister is not interested in finding out the answer to that question speaks volumes about this. And we hope to find out, very, very soon, the full story behind this, because potentially there’s been a criminal – been criminal offences committed. But there’s certainly, certainly been misconduct that demands that the minister must go. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.33pm BST | at 10.33pm BST |
| 10.13pm BST | 10.13pm BST |
| 22:13 | 22:13 |
| Christopher Pyne says Cash has 'done the right thing' | Christopher Pyne says Cash has 'done the right thing' |
| Gareth Hutchens | Gareth Hutchens |
| Christopher Pyne has defended Michaelia Cash this morning. | Christopher Pyne has defended Michaelia Cash this morning. |
| He said Cash’s staffer who tipped off the media to the AWU raid, David De Garis, is a great guy and a long-term Liberal staffer, who had a lapse of judgment. | He said Cash’s staffer who tipped off the media to the AWU raid, David De Garis, is a great guy and a long-term Liberal staffer, who had a lapse of judgment. |
| He said Cash did not mislead the Senate. | He said Cash did not mislead the Senate. |
| He said she told the truth, but as soon as she found out she’d been misled by her staffer she corrected the record. | He said she told the truth, but as soon as she found out she’d been misled by her staffer she corrected the record. |
| “Now that’s all you can ask her to do in the circumstances and I think she’s done the right thing.” | “Now that’s all you can ask her to do in the circumstances and I think she’s done the right thing.” |
| When asked about Labor’s point that under the Westminster system of government Cash should be responsible for the behaviour of her staff, Pyne said he would not be lectured by the Labor party about the Westminster system. | When asked about Labor’s point that under the Westminster system of government Cash should be responsible for the behaviour of her staff, Pyne said he would not be lectured by the Labor party about the Westminster system. |
| “We just recently saw a Penny Wong staffer being at the centre of a campaign to try to remove the deputy prime minister of Australia,” he said. | “We just recently saw a Penny Wong staffer being at the centre of a campaign to try to remove the deputy prime minister of Australia,” he said. |
| “That staffer wasn’t required to resign and is still working in the building.” | “That staffer wasn’t required to resign and is still working in the building.” |
| Nick Xenophon has already questioned that comparison of Pyne’s. | Nick Xenophon has already questioned that comparison of Pyne’s. |
| “In Penny Wong’s office that was quite contentious, but that’s quite different from leaking information to the media about a police raid where arguably that could prejudice the operation,” Xenophon said. | “In Penny Wong’s office that was quite contentious, but that’s quite different from leaking information to the media about a police raid where arguably that could prejudice the operation,” Xenophon said. |
| “It could have all sorts of implications that I think could be adverse, both to the organisations involved and to the party being investigated.” | “It could have all sorts of implications that I think could be adverse, both to the organisations involved and to the party being investigated.” |
| However, Xenophon said has always found Cash to be an honest person. He said she has always been very honest in her dealings with him and he believes she didn’t know that her staffer had tipped off the media. | However, Xenophon said has always found Cash to be an honest person. He said she has always been very honest in her dealings with him and he believes she didn’t know that her staffer had tipped off the media. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 10.35pm BST | at 10.35pm BST |
| 10.13pm BST | 10.13pm BST |
| 22:13 | 22:13 |
| Good morning | Good morning |
| What a night that was. | What a night that was. |
| Michaelia Cash admitted her office was responsible for leaking the details of the AWU raids to the media, setting off a series of events that continue today. | Michaelia Cash admitted her office was responsible for leaking the details of the AWU raids to the media, setting off a series of events that continue today. |
| It came after the minister denied, five times, either she or her staff had anything to do with the information reaching the media. | It came after the minister denied, five times, either she or her staff had anything to do with the information reaching the media. |
| She says she was unaware of her senior media advisor, David De Garis’s, actions until he told her during the dinner break of last night’s estimates hearing. He resigned, but Cash faced hours of questioning over what she knew, when and why she denied something she says she never asked. | |
| Labor is demanding she resign. Senators Murray Watt, Don Farrell and Doug Cameron pushed Cash for hours, invoking the Westminster convention that a minister takes responsibility for the actions of their office. | |
| Government ministers have been out since dawn defending Cash. Christian Porter said “Michaelia Cash simply did not know”, while Christopher Pyne said the minister had been “misled” and did all she could to correct the record when she knew. | Government ministers have been out since dawn defending Cash. Christian Porter said “Michaelia Cash simply did not know”, while Christopher Pyne said the minister had been “misled” and did all she could to correct the record when she knew. |
| But the staffer involved is not a random departmental member. De Garis is one of her senior advisors, who was with her when she advised the prime minister that the leak did not come from her office. It is hard to see how she makes it through this still in the ministry. | |
| The hearing, which is being in the same room as “Utegate” was revealed, resumes at 9am. | The hearing, which is being in the same room as “Utegate” was revealed, resumes at 9am. |
| But the government enters the day facing the loss of Cash from the ministry, a day before it potentially loses Barnaby Joyce, Fiona Nash and Matt Canavan. If that occurs, that’s about 20% of the cabinet in one week. | But the government enters the day facing the loss of Cash from the ministry, a day before it potentially loses Barnaby Joyce, Fiona Nash and Matt Canavan. If that occurs, that’s about 20% of the cabinet in one week. |
| Let’s get right to it. Comments are open and you can reach Mike Bowers at @mpbowers and me at @amyremeikis. | Let’s get right to it. Comments are open and you can reach Mike Bowers at @mpbowers and me at @amyremeikis. |
| It is going to be a long day. Hope you’re ready. | It is going to be a long day. Hope you’re ready. |
| Updated | Updated |
| at 11.20pm BST |