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Michaelia Cash says she has not considered resigning over leak of AWU raid – politics live AWU lodges freedom of information request over leak of raid – politics live
(35 minutes later)
2.25am BST
02:25
And let’s remember that tomorrow, the high court will hand down its decision on the seven MPs who have citizenship concerns.
Of most concern to the government are Barnaby Joyce, Matt Canavan and Fiona Nash. Canavan was meant to go back into cabinet, if cleared. If those three are found to have been in breach, that’s two more ministers (Canvan has already resigned from the cabinet) the government loses. If Michaelia Cash is also made to resign, we are heading to a situation where the government basically loses 20% of its cabinet in one week.
(For those who were asking, yes, I will be running a live blog on the high court decision tomorrow.)
2.20am BST
02:20
Will Michaelia Cash be back before the committee?
I understand that the committee is meeting at 1.15pm to discuss that exact thing.
Cash has not been able to answer questions in relation to what David De Garis knew and who he spoke to, as she said she needs to sit down with him.
At the moment, she told the committee she was worried for his welfare, and last night described his condition as “very distressed” .
But she also said she had instructed her chief of staff to continue to call De Garis to set up that meeting.
Labor wants her back before the committee after that, most likely tomorrow morning, to finish answering those questions.
We’ll keep you updated.
2.11am BST
02:11
Australian Workers' Union lodges freedom of information request
The AWU has released a statement:
The Australian Workers’ Union has today lodged an FOI aimed at revealing how senator Michaelia Cash’s office knew about the AWU raids and to what extent the minister was instructing her staff.
“How did Cash’s office know about the raids? And who knew? These are the questions we need answered,” said Daniel Walton, National Secretary of the Australian Workers’ Union.
“It seems completely inappropriate that the minister’s office, which is meant to be completely removed from the independent operations of the ROC and the AFP, seemed to know all the detail necessary to tip off media.
“My members, and the broader public, deserve to know how this came about. Why were media camped outside the offices of my staff 20 minutes before police arrived?
“We have suspected from the start that the Senator Cash’s office has had been exercising an inappropriate level of influence over the ROC and its actions. We know the ROC is loaded with former Liberal staffers. We need to understand this connection in better detail.
“The minister’s throwing of a staff member under the bus isn’t going to cut it.”
Walton also rubbished suggestions that a lack of cooperation with the ROC had triggered Tuesday’s raids.
“Firstly, the AWU has always complied with notices to produce. We received 40 notices to produce from the Royal Commission and handed over literally thousands of documents — huge files, USBs, computers,” Mr Walton said.
“The ROC only launched its investigation on Friday last week. Previously it has issued notices to produce, which we have fully complied with. But as regard the current matter, the only thing we had received from them was informal inquiries, of which we were disputing the legitimacy.
“On Tuesday the ROC said it was raiding our offices because they suspected documents were being shredded. Today we hear that it might have been because of our failure to cooperate instantly with informal inquiries. Which is it?”
Updated
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2.01am BST
02:01
Gareth Hutchens
Outside of Michaelia Cash:
Australia’s corporate regulator has just warned that Rio Tinto executives could face charges.
In a Senate estimates this morning, Greg Medcraft, the chairman of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (Asic), was asked a series over questions about Rio Tinto’s disastrous $4bn purchase of Riversdale Mining Company in Mozambique in 2011.
Rio purchased the company while Tom Albanese was chief executive, and Guy Elliot was chief financial officer.
The United States Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) has filed a complaint in federal court in Manhattan, alleging Rio Tinto, Albanese and Elliot failed to follow accounting standards and company policies to accurately value and record the asset.
It has claimed that within months of the 2011 purchase, Rio’s internal modelling found that the value of Riversdale was really worth between negative $3.45bn and negative $9bn, but that Albanese and Elliot did not tell shareholders about the write down immediately.
Medcraft told senators on Thursday that Asic has worked with the SEC for a long time on the case.
He then warned Rio executives could face charges in Australia.
Greens senator Peter Whish-Wilson asked why Asic wasn’t the first regulator to prosecute the case, given Rio is a dual-listed company in Australia and the UK.
Medcraft said Asic had been working on the case from day one.
“We’re not finished yet,” he said. “As I always say it’s a journey, the journey hasn’t finished yet.”
Whish-Wilson replied: “So you potentially could bring charges as well?”
Medcraft said: “We could. Correct. Watch this space.”
Whish-Wilson: “You do seem to use mostly civil [proceedings]?
Medcraft agreed, saying “all enforcement options” were on the table.
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Meanwhile, some organisations seem to be doing OK out of this
the #BernadiEffect strikes again!gov't attacks @GetUp ➡️ donations increase 7x in one day to $171,000, gains 1145 new members. pic.twitter.com/ZyyqJpGtm0
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01:50
Labor will maintain its pressure on Michaelia Cash to resign, and on Malcolm Turnbull to make her, as the day progresses.
But she still has her supporters, including Senator Ian Macdonald, who said Cash “should be promoted”, and Pauline Hanson, who questioned whether it was a “political witch-hunt by the former union bosses”.
Christopher Pyne, Darren Chester, Mathias Cormann, Simon Birmingham and Christian Porter have been among the government members defending Cash this morning.
It seems split on whether she will survive in the ministry or not at this stage. If it is revealed another of her staffers did speak to the media, it is hard to see her being able to continue. But it’s not the first time the “I didn’t know I was being misled” defence has been deployed, and not all of those who use it, fall.
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1.41am BST1.41am BST
01:4101:41
RecapRecap
Sorry, just took a short breath.Sorry, just took a short breath.
OK. A lot to unpack there. The basics, as I see them:OK. A lot to unpack there. The basics, as I see them:
Michaelia Cash is maintaining she did not mislead the Senate when she denied (five times) neither she or her office had leaked the AWU raids to the media, because she was misled by a staffer.Michaelia Cash is maintaining she did not mislead the Senate when she denied (five times) neither she or her office had leaked the AWU raids to the media, because she was misled by a staffer.
That staffer, David De Garis, resigned overnight. He refused to tell Cash who told him about the raids, only saying it was “a media source” That staffer, David De Garis, resigned overnight. He refused to tell Cash who told him about the raids, only saying it was “a media source”.
Cash has not been in contact with De Garis since then Cash has not been in contact with De Garis since then.
Cash has written to the Registered Organisations Commission asking them to consider referring the matter to the Australian Federal Police Cash has written to the Registered Organisations Commission asking them to consider referring the matter to the Australian federal police.
Cash’s remaining media officer worked with the Fair Work Ombudsman’s media officer in Denis Napthine’s office. Cash’s remaining media officer worked with the Fair Work Ombudsman’s media officer in former Victorian premier Denis Napthine’s office.
The FWO media officer is ‘on loan’ to the ROC The FWO media officer is “on loan” to the ROC.
The Fair Work Ombudsman’s media director, Mark Lee, was informed by the the ROC media advisor warrants were being sought for a raid, at 12.30 The Fair Work Ombudsman’s media director, Mark Lee, was informed by the ROC media advisor, warrants were being sought for a raid, at 12.30.
Lee was not in the office when the raid occurred Lee was not in the office when the raid occurred.
Buzzfeed reported journalists were advised at 3.30 of the raids by De Garis Buzzfeed reported journalists were advised at 3.30 of the raids by De Garis.
Lee has told the FWO that he did not communicate in any form with anyone outside the agency until after the raids had commenced Lee has told the FWO that he did not communicate in any form with anyone outside the agency until after the raids had commenced.
The FWO said she was “confident” he had not communicated with anyone else The FWO said she was “confident” he had not communicated with anyone else.
Cash said she has asked her staff if anyone else knew about the raids, or spoke about them (ie: did anyone else make calls to the media) and no one else has come forward Cash said she has asked her staff if anyone else knew about the raids, or spoke about them (ie did anyone else make calls to the media), and no one else has come forward.
She says she has to believe they are being honest She says she has to believe they are being honest.
Cash advised the prime minister on Wednesday she was not the source of the leak, after erroneously believing Anthony Albanese had said she had called journalists (he said her office may be the source of the calls, not the minister) Cash advised the prime minister on Wednesday she was not the source of the leak, after erroneously believing Anthony Albanese had said she had called journalists (he said her office may be the source of the calls, not the minister).
She says the prime minister did not ask her any further questions She says the prime minister did not ask her any further questions.
The minister ate a toasted sandwich on her afternoon tea break, but did not clarify with her staff whether they were the leak The minister ate a toasted sandwich on her afternoon tea break, but did not clarify with her staff whether they were the leak.
Buzzfeed published its article just after 6pm.Buzzfeed published its article just after 6pm.
Cash went back to her office and her staffer confessed, and resigned Cash went back to her office and her staffer confessed, and resigned.
Cash maintains she did not do anything wrong and said she will not resign Cash maintains she did not do anything wrong and said she will not resign.
She will not say whether the prime minister asked her to She will not say whether the prime minister asked her to.
What we don’t knowWhat we don’t know
Who the “media source” is who told Michaelia Cash’s staffer of the upcoming raids Who the “media source” is who told Michaelia Cash’s staffer of the upcoming raids.
If the prime minister asked Cash to resign If the prime minister asked Cash to resign.
Whether the AFP will investigate as Cash has suggested Whether the AFP will investigate as Cash has suggested.
Updated
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1.13am BST1.13am BST
01:1301:13
UpdatedUpdated
at 1.17am BSTat 1.17am BST
1.06am BST1.06am BST
01:0601:06
Committee adjournsCommittee adjourns
As the clock runs down, Doug Cameron and Murray Watt go over the facts. Michaelia Cash restates her earlier answers.As the clock runs down, Doug Cameron and Murray Watt go over the facts. Michaelia Cash restates her earlier answers.
She is now reading verbatim from a statement in front of her, after Watt asks how she can be trusted again.She is now reading verbatim from a statement in front of her, after Watt asks how she can be trusted again.
She says she didn’t know and as soon as she was aware her advisor had misled her, she notified the committee.She says she didn’t know and as soon as she was aware her advisor had misled her, she notified the committee.
Murray Watt says the committee needs to reconvene on this matter, as the minister has not been able to answer all the questions in front of her.Murray Watt says the committee needs to reconvene on this matter, as the minister has not been able to answer all the questions in front of her.
Linda Reynolds says that will be discussed in a private meeting.Linda Reynolds says that will be discussed in a private meeting.
The committee adjourns.The committee adjourns.
1.03am BST1.03am BST
01:0301:03
Pauline Hanson asks whether this is "political witch hunt" to stop "effective minister"Pauline Hanson asks whether this is "political witch hunt" to stop "effective minister"
The One Nation senator looks to be running interference for Michaelia Cash. Hanson asks why she introduced the ROC bill, and what she knows about leaks in parliament, bringing up the raid of the One Nation office.The One Nation senator looks to be running interference for Michaelia Cash. Hanson asks why she introduced the ROC bill, and what she knows about leaks in parliament, bringing up the raid of the One Nation office.
Hanson: This would not be the first time we’ve been talking about a leaked to the media. This is not the first time that leaks have been made from parliament, is it?Hanson: This would not be the first time we’ve been talking about a leaked to the media. This is not the first time that leaks have been made from parliament, is it?
Cash: I think, as I stated this morning, when Michael Williamson and Craig Thomson were raided, there were media present, and that was under the former Labor government.Cash: I think, as I stated this morning, when Michael Williamson and Craig Thomson were raided, there were media present, and that was under the former Labor government.
Hanson: Were you aware that, when One Nation was raided, there was media in attendance as well?Hanson: Were you aware that, when One Nation was raided, there was media in attendance as well?
Cash: I’m certainly aware of reporting in the media in relation to what you have referred to, the raiding of the One Nation offices.Cash: I’m certainly aware of reporting in the media in relation to what you have referred to, the raiding of the One Nation offices.
Hanson then asks whether Cash thinks this is a now “witch hunt” from former union bosses.Hanson then asks whether Cash thinks this is a now “witch hunt” from former union bosses.
Minister Cash you are a very effective minister and you have actually have put pressure on the unions, do you feel that this is a political with hunt by the former union bosses now who are actually interrogating [you over this].Minister Cash you are a very effective minister and you have actually have put pressure on the unions, do you feel that this is a political with hunt by the former union bosses now who are actually interrogating [you over this].
The room breaks into laughter.The room breaks into laughter.
Cash says Hanson is correct, that the matter at hand is about whether or not donations made by the AWU when Bill Shorten was boss, were properly authorised.Cash says Hanson is correct, that the matter at hand is about whether or not donations made by the AWU when Bill Shorten was boss, were properly authorised.
UpdatedUpdated
at 1.08am BSTat 1.08am BST
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00:5400:54
Cash says she has not considered resigningCash says she has not considered resigning
The hearing starts to get heated, as Labor turns attention to whether Michaelia Cash had considered resigning and whether the prime minister had asked it of her resignation.The hearing starts to get heated, as Labor turns attention to whether Michaelia Cash had considered resigning and whether the prime minister had asked it of her resignation.
She earlier said she would not apologise to Anthony Albanese, for erroneously believing he had referred to her leaking, when he had said her office.She earlier said she would not apologise to Anthony Albanese, for erroneously believing he had referred to her leaking, when he had said her office.
Cameron: The discussions you had with the prime minister this morning – was your potential resignation discussed?Cameron: The discussions you had with the prime minister this morning – was your potential resignation discussed?
Cash: AsI have stated, I will not be going into the ins and outs of the discussions I had with the prime minister. I discussed this matter with the prime minister, or I had discussions with the prime minister in relation to this matter.Cash: AsI have stated, I will not be going into the ins and outs of the discussions I had with the prime minister. I discussed this matter with the prime minister, or I had discussions with the prime minister in relation to this matter.
Cameron: Did you offer your resignation?Cameron: Did you offer your resignation?
Cash: I’m not going to canvass the details of the discussion. I had discussions with the prime minister in relation to this matter.Cash: I’m not going to canvass the details of the discussion. I had discussions with the prime minister in relation to this matter.
Ian Macdonald begins to interrupt. He is ignored.Ian Macdonald begins to interrupt. He is ignored.
Cameron: Minister, have you considered resigning, because of these terrible positions you find yourself in?Cameron: Minister, have you considered resigning, because of these terrible positions you find yourself in?
Cash: No, I have not.Cash: No, I have not.
Cameron: But you don’t rule out having discussed your resignation with the prime minister?Cameron: But you don’t rule out having discussed your resignation with the prime minister?
Cash: As I have stated, I’m not going to canvas the ins and outs of the discussions I’ve had with the prime minister, but I had discussions with the prime minister this morning.Cash: As I have stated, I’m not going to canvas the ins and outs of the discussions I’ve had with the prime minister, but I had discussions with the prime minister this morning.
UpdatedUpdated
at 12.58am BSTat 12.58am BST
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00:50
James Paterson asks some questions clarifying who may have known of the raids.
The short answer is the ROC, the AFP, the ROC legal firm, most likely, Victoria and New South Wales police.
Updated
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00:46
Murray Watt to Natalie James: I think the language here is important. I’m not accusing you of changing anything but earlier you said that he told you that he had no conversations outside the agency and you then said no communication outside the agency,just to be clear, has he ruled out telephone calls, verbal conversations, text messages,emails?
James: Yes, Senator.
Watt: All communications?
James: That’s right,Senator.
Watt: Did he have any contact with Minister Cash’s office abou tany issue yesterday?
James: I would need to take that on notice, Senator.
Labor to Michaelia Cash: Yesterday you repeatedly told us that, in resigning, your staff member told you that he had obtained this information from a media source, and we ask you whether that was a journalist or potentially a media adviser in an agency. Have you attempted to clarify that?
Cash:As I’ve stated, I’ve not yet spoken to the staff member and have not been able to undertake those inquiries.
12.43am BST
00:43
Labor establishes that the Fair Work media advisor and the remaining media advisor in Michaelia Cash’s office used to work together in Denis Napthine’s office.
Natalie James, the Fair Work Ombudsman said she didn’t know
Labor: Have you taken any steps to assert whether you’re media person could have been the source of the leak?
James: Yes, Senator.
Labor: What have you done?
James: I’ve spoken to my director of media.
Labor: What was the response from your director of media?
James: My director of media was aware that warrants were being sought, as Mr Enright described just now. He was advised this by the ROC media advisor.
Labor: When?
James: At around 12:30on the day of the searches.
Labor: 12:30,yeah?
James: He was advised that warrants had been sought. He was asked,because the ROC media advisor, being relatively new, did not yet have his remote access established, so in other words, he didn’t have a computer he was able to use to access work emails out of hours. The ROC media advisor asked the director of media would you be able to assist in the event that there are inquiries from journalists when this unfolds.
(This is important. I’m pretty tired, and haven’t double checked, but I believe that during yesterday’s hearing, it as said the ROC staff weren’t briefed until later, around mid-afternoon)
Labor: I’m asking, have you sought to a ascertain whether your media advisor, director of communications,whether he was the source of the leak?
James: Yes, senator.
Labor: What did he respond when you asked him that question?
James: He had no conversations with anyone outside of the agency about these matters until he started receiving calls after the searches were being executed from journalists wanting comment. He was attending a private appointment at this time. His responses to those journalist were that he didn’t know and he would need to get back to them.
12.35am BST
00:35
Committee members are questioning of Registered Organisations Commission and Fair Work staff because when David De Garis resigned, he said he got the information from a “media source”. It’s a strange choice of language, which is what is leading to this line of questioning – the imputation being it was potentially a media advisor from another organisation who alerted De Garis.
Cameron: Mr [Mark] Bielecki what is your understanding of this relationship.
Bielecki: Of the relationship between the ROC and the FWO. [Registered Organisations Commission/ Fair Work Ombudsman]
Cameron: Particularly around media advice.
Bielecki: Media advice is one of the corporate services like payroll and HR and accounting and so on that is provided by the FWO for the assistance of the ROC.
Labor: So how long has the FWO media advisor been doing work for ROC?
Bielecki: The media advisor of the FWO?
Labor: That’s what I said, yes.
Bielecki: That media has assisted from time to time, in particular, that media advisor has assisted us with hiring contract media advisors to work within the ROC and be embedded in the ROC.
Labor: So you use contract media advisors as well, do you?
Bielecki: We only have one and they have been contract.
Labor: So have you taken steps to confirm who knew what about the raid before 3:30pm in your office? Have you taken steps?
Bielecki: No, that wasn’t my role. That was an operational matter.
Labor: It is not your role as the commissioner to take steps when you,the ROC, is under some – there is concern that the ROC may have been the source of the leak. You have done nothing about it?
Bielecki: I have been here in estimates since this issue arose.
Murray Watt: But there are telephones?
Chris Enright: Perhaps I can assist.
Labor: Mr Enright, would you like to add to that?
Enright: I can assist the commissioner by indicating that I am taking those steps.
Labor: You are taking those steps?
Enright: Yes
Labor: Have you contacted the federal police about this matter?
Bielecki: Not since a couple of hours ago when the minister provided the letter to the commissioner, no.
Labor: But, Mr Bielecki, why haven’t you contacted the federal police to have an investigation into the role that your organisation may have had in relation to the leak?
Bielecki: Senator, I think the evidence I gave yesterday was that the first step in this was to have discussions with members of staff and armed with those make a decision as to what the next appropriate step would be.
Updated
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12.27am BST
00:27
Doug Cameron and Murray Watt now turn their attention to the Registered Organisations Commission and Fair Work staff to ask what they knew about the leak – and whether any of their staff were involved.
Updated
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00:25
Back in the hearing, Cash repeats that she only assured the prime minister that she had not leaked to the media.
Cameron: You didn’t provide any assurance to him that no one in your office leaked?
Cash: I was there to provide an assurance that I had not briefed the media.
Cameron: You and only you. That was a very narrow question, wasn’t it?
Cash: That is for your interpretation. I can only tell you what occurred.
Cameron: Did you mislead the prime minister about whether your office leaked the raid to the media?
Cash: No, I did not.
Cameron: Did you deny your office had told the media?
Cash: Did I deny my office? As I stated, I provided an assurance to the prime minister that I had not. At the earliest opportunity we advised the prime minister’s office of my staff member’s resignation.
Updated
at 12.28am BST
12.22am BST
00:22
Gareth Hutchens
The immigration minister, Peter Dutton, has just been on Sydney’s 2GB radio, with host Ray Hadley.
They talked about Michaelia Cash’s evidence to the Senate.
Dutton said it was a serious offence if you deliberately mislead the Senate, but that’s not the allegation against Cash.
He said Labor was running a distraction because they don’t want the focus to be on Bill Shorten.
Hadley said a key takeaway from the last 12 hours was that politicians and their staffers, if they wanted to leak to the press, shouldn’t leak to the “Left of the media.”
Peter Dutton agreed that some journalists can’t be trusted: “Well look, there are a few people who are happy to take leaks because that helps them in their job as a journalist, and then they turn around and bite the hand that feeds them,” he said.
“There’s not a lot of purity in some of these journalists, but anyway, I’ll let you comment on that.”
Hadley chuckled at that, and then said: “I’m always astounded by, you know: “How dare you impugn our integrity we’ll never reveal sources’.”
“Someone beat Usain Bolt in rushing from wherever they were to [Labor senator] Doug Cameron’s office to say: ‘Uncle Doug, you need to know this before you go to question Michaelia Cash,’” he said.
“So you’ve gotta be careful about who you leak to I suppose.”
Updated
at 12.27am BST
12.20am BST
00:20
Doug Cameron and Murray Watt go over the day’s events again yesterday, particularly the afternoon tea break (which would have been another opportunity for the staffer to reveal his role).
Cameron: Who in your office did you speak with during the afternoon tea break?
Cash: I could not tell you Senator Cameron. Again, I have a number of things that I am responsible for. I answer all sorts of questions from my staff. Normally the first question is: “Would you like another coffee?” The answer to that is normally, “Yes” so there is a very, very good chance that is the question that I answered when I walked in, would I like another coffee.
Cameron: That’s unbelievable.
Watt: This point about your media advisor and their phone ... I’ve seen the mobile phone number that is on the signature block for your media advisors’ emails and it is one phone number. I understand again, Adam Gartrell, a journalist, says he spoke with your media advisor very briefly at 8:17pm using “the only mobile number I have for him, his media phone”, but you are assuring us that your advisor does not currently have possession of this phone, this work phone?
Cash: That is my understanding, yes. At 8:17pm last night, if you recall, I was actually in here.
Updated
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00:17
After a thrilling discussion of the bill’s progression, Doug Cameron picks up the questioning again.
Cameron: Minister, can you confirm that your staff member, or any of your staff had no contact with any person in the PMO about what they knew including tipping off journalists?
Cash: Senator Cameron, I have been unable to obviously speak to the relevant staff member and I have been unable to undertake those inquiries but again I can only tell you what I knew at the time. I sought assurances from my staff. They provided me with those assurances.
But, chair, can I just indulge for one moment. I want to quote Senator Wong in relation to a similar issue. People can decide whether they believe me or believe the attorney general but basically she states: “I was not aware.” She then states: “I absolutely accept it was unwise for my staff member to engage in that discussion. I accept that and I have said that publicly.”
Our man in the room, Mike Bowers reports that Ian Macdonald mutters “did her staff resign?” Macdonald is now madly scribbling on paper with a pencil.
Cameron: So, minister,do you ordinarily call your staff on their personal phones?
Cash: I couldn’t tell you. I have varying numbers in there for varying people. I wouldn’t know whether it is a work phone or a personal phone.
Cameron: So have you got more than one number for all of your staff?
Cash: Not for all of them, no.
I spoke with him very briefly at 8.17pm using the only mobile phone number I have for him - his media phone. https://t.co/BVuNpK1Pyw
Updated
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00:12
One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts takes the floor and breaks momentum, by asking ROC about how “the implementation of the bill is progressing”.
“That’s what I came here for, to find out,” the senator who represents a party that demands transparency and honesty is all things, says.
Labor senators can not contain their exasperation.
Roberts asks his questions about what the bill is for, and the committee moves on.
Updated
at 12.17am BST