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Version 1 Version 2
Michaelia Cash says AWU raid leak should be referred to federal police – politics live Michaelia Cash says AWU raid leak should be referred to federal police – politics live
(35 minutes later)
12.04am BST
00:04
Hinch presses a little harder:
“So you go back to your office after Senator Watt came up with this, the Buzzfeed article was out, and did you call your staff and say, who is telling the truth here?
Cash: Basically, we had discussions. One staff member was very, very distressed. And he then came to me and advised me...
(There is an interruption again from Ian Macdonald. Mike Bowers says it sounds like he is saying ‘Labor wouldn’t care about that’)
Hinch: If you come back to you alone and confess?
Cash: Yes, he did.
Hinch: Did he resign or did you ask for his resignation?
Cash: He walked in and said, I’m resigning my employment.
Hinch: Was the Prime Minister’s meeting before Question Time - he was getting reassurances - he knew Mr Albanese was after you. He wanted reassurances everyone was telling the truth, right, for Question Time? So the staff member didn’t speak in that staff meeting. It was you and the PM?
Cash: Correct.
Hinch: So you have this staff member in the office with you. As you say, all your staff listen to these Estimate hearings.
Cash: I did not lie.I provided evidence to the Senate committee, based on the knowledge I had at the time.
12.01am BST
00:01
We hear a little more of the sandwich’s role, before getting to Senator Derryn Hinch.
Michaelia Cash tells Doug Cameron she did not remember who told her the prime minister wanted a meeting with her ahead of question time.
Senator Cameron,there were several conversations going on yesterday in relation to numerous issues. I have limited time. I also wanted to eat my sandwich, which I did.”
We move on to Hinch, who opens like he is back on the radio:
“Minister, during Watergate, the big question was, what did the president know and when did he know it? In your case,it is what did you know, when did you know it? You told as you had assurances from your staff in the morning. What Mr Albanese had said was not true, and what had leaked from your staff. Through the day you told the commission the same thing. What made you, during the dinner break, talk to your staff again? Did you have qualms you had been misled?
Cash: No. Senator Watt raised an article that had appeared on Buzzfeed. The article stated it was known in the press gallery that my media adviser had briefed journalists, so, once the dinner break occurred, I went down to my office to discuss the article. That is what caused me to ask further questions.
11.58pm BST
23:58
I am watching the hearing from the office (to make it a little easier, technology-wise), while Mike Bowers is in the room. He has described the atmosphere as “pretty tense” and that Michaelia Cash, usually one of the more unflappable members of the government, is “pretty wound up”.
Groundhog Day at senate estimates Minister Cash continues this morning @GuardianAus @AmyRemeikis #polticslive pic.twitter.com/2gMg5QBVpQ
Updated
at 12.03am BST
11.56pm BST
23:56
Michaelia Cash and the toasted sandwich
We are now entering the twilight zone. Michaelia Cash is now detailing the food she ate.
Labor: You said yesterday you spoke to the prime minister before question time. That’s during the lunch break, correct?
Cash: During the lunch break of this committee.
Labor: You took your media adviser with you?
Cash: Yes, we were in discussions and walked over together.
Labor: And that was the media adviser who misled you and subsequently resigned?
Cash: That is correct.
Labor: The prime minister asked for you to come and briefing and respond to the allegations made by Mr Albanese that your office had briefed the media about the raid, correct?
Cash: No, it was in relation to whether I had briefed the media.
Labor: When was that meeting arranged? How did you get the message?
Cash: I walked from my office.
Labor: Do you meet with him before every question time?
Cash: No, I don’t. Given I had concerns about what Mr Albanese had said, given Mr Cameron had raised the issue about Mr Albanese, I cannot recall the absolute course of events. I left here. I may have had some lunch. To be honest with you ... I had a toasted sandwich sitting on my desk. I realised that time was getting away from me, and I cannot recall who said to me that I needed to go and see the prime minister to provide an assurance that I had not briefed the media. We were all in discussions. I walked into his question time briefing. I gave him the assurance, and I left to go back to my office because we were due in estimates.
Updated
at 12.01am BST
11.50pm BST
23:50
Cash says that she instructed her chief of staff, through the estimates hearing last night, and then during the break more directly, to secure her staffer’s equipment and papers after his resignation.
When asked if David De Garis “took a bullet” for other staff, Cash answers “no”.
It was this question which led to Ian Macdonald’s outburst, which Linda Reynolds had no time for. They go to meet off-camera and return. Macdonald is still in the room, but silent.
Updated
at 11.55pm BST
11.47pm BST
23:47
Before those interruptions, Cash said she tried once, at midnight, to contact De Garis. When asked why only once, she says “it was midnight”. Watt asks her how Fairfax journalist Adam Gartrell was able to contact him, and she says she doesn’t know.
“I’ve also tried to contact him this morning, and I’ve instructed my chief of staff to ascertain his wellbeing to insure that he is OK, and to come into the office this afternoon to speak to me,” Cash said.
Labor pushes her on whether anyone else in her office knew, and whether it was possible that other staffers overheard his phone calls.
Cash: It is a very small office. They have desks like in any open-plan situation.
Cameron: Have you got a close-knit staff?
Cash: I don’t understand the question.
Cameron: Are your staff close to each other, do they trust each other?
Cash: They work with each other. Whether they are friends outside work I don’t know.
Cameron: Because the staff member who resigned rang several media outlets, and it just beggars belief, it just defies credibility, that he did not share that information with his fellow staff.
Cash: I disagree with you, Senator Cameron. What he has advised me is that he did, without my knowledge, without my authorisation, and unfortunately resigned his employment.
Updated
at 11.52pm BST
11.42pm BST
23:42
The committee is now being suspended because of Ian Macdonald’s repeated interruptions.
Linda Reynolds calls a private meeting.
11.40pm BST
23:40
Labor is now attempting to ascertain whether any other staff from Cash’s office were involved in leaking the raids to the media, particularly her other media advisor. (Both senators Doug Cameron and Murray Watt are asking these questions)
Cash said she has asked, and she has been assured that they were not involved.
I asked my staff for assurances yesterday morning. They were given to me. All evidence provided to me in relation to the questions that you asked me were based on my knowledge at the time.
Following the raising of the Buzzfeed article I returned to my office, as I’m sure most of us did during the dinner break, actually to have something to eat, unsurprisingly, and it is at that time that the staff member came to me and stated he had mislead me and as I’ve provided to the Senate committee on several occasions but I will refer to it again, during the dinner break I sought further assurances from my staff and I was advised that without my knowledge one staff member in my office in the course of discussions with journalists indicated that he had received information that a raid may take place.”
Labor: So you are now confident that no other staff members were involved?
Cash: I have again sought assurances from my staff and it is this staff member who came forward.
Labor: That staff member came forward but are you now confident that no other staff member was involved?
Cash: As I’ve stated, I have asked my staff members for assurances. They have provided me with those assurances but in relation to this particular staff member, yes, he came forward during the dinner break and he advised me of what he had done and he resigned his employment as a result of it.
Labor: You have two media advisors, are you confident that your other media advisor had no involvement?
Cash: Yes, I am.
Labor: How have you come to that conclusion?
Cash: I asked him again last night to provide me with assurances and he did.
Labor: What exactly were the assurances? Again, were you aware of the raids prior to them occurring? And, did you inform any media? And he answered no to both those questions?
Cash: Correct.
Labor: You’ve said a number of times that yesterday morning you sought assurances from your staff that they had not tipped off the media about this raid before it occurred. Did you personally speak to every single one of your staff, did you personally seek those assurances?
Cash: Not every single one of my staff. As I stated, my staff are spread over varying portfolios. For example, I didn’t speak to the assistant women’s advisor. However, because they were not in the office last night, I have spoken to each individual staff member, and I asked them, were you aware of the raids prior to them occurring? And did you speak to any journalists prior to the raids? They have all responded,no.
Labor: OK. And when you obtained this assurance yesterday morning from your staff member who has resigned, you looked him in the eye, asked him those questions, and he said no?
Cash: My staff members all gave me assurances. You are now aware that one staff member came forward during the dinner break and advised me that he had misled me will stop he told me what he’d done, and he resigned his employment. As I stated, I give him credit for coming forward.
Labor: Why didn’t you ask those questions before last night?
Cash: I don’t understand the question. I’ve given evidence that I did ask those questions.
Labor: But you didn’t ask all your staff, did you?
Cash: As I stated yesterday in my evidence, I asked the relevant staff members. I didn’t, for example, ask the assistant minister advisor, I didn’t speak to the young woman who sits at my front desk, I did not speak to the young lady who takes care of my diary. However, for completeness, I have spoken to them all this morning, and the assurances they have given me in relation to my questions.
Labor: And this other media staffer - you are absolutely confident that he is telling the truth?
Cash: I can only be as confident as are the answers that are given to me. I think they understand the seriousness of what has occurred, given that my media adviser, on making his admissions, resigned his employment last night. I take the assurance is given to me as being correct. Unfortunately, as I’ve stated, a staff member came forward last night, advised me that he had misled me, and resigned his employment.
Updated
at 11.49pm BST
11.30pm BST
23:30
Doug Cameron continues his questioning:
So the prime minister didn’t ask questions? That’s a surprise. So you said just before 12 noon that he had been advised that when the media became aware of the raid before 3:30, and asked whether you were absolutely certain that no one in your office contacted the media, that’s correct, isn’t it?”
Cash answers:
Senator Cameron, as I stated, until the dinner break last night when I returned to my office and the Buzzfeed article had come to light, I had been given assurances by my staff that they were not aware of the raids prior to them occurring and that they had not spoken to any journalists.
As you are aware, and as I have stated on the record, during the dinner break I sought further assurances from my staff and I was advised that without my knowledge one staff member in my office in the course of discussions with journalists indicated that he had received information that a raid may take place.
As I stated yesterday in the Senate, I was not aware of this. This took place without my knowledge and it was not authorised by me. That staff member has now resigned his employment.”
Updated
at 11.44pm BST
11.29pm BST11.29pm BST
23:2923:29
Ian Macdonald continues to attempt to interrupt the proceedings.Ian Macdonald continues to attempt to interrupt the proceedings.
“Up to your old tricks,” Murray Watt quips.“Up to your old tricks,” Murray Watt quips.
Linda Reynolds tells him to stop interrupting, unless he has a point of order.Linda Reynolds tells him to stop interrupting, unless he has a point of order.
Macdonald, who when he chairs a meeting, attempts to shut down opposition questioning at every opportunity, and keeps an ipad timer which, for non-government committee members speaking time, abides by religiously, again attempts to shut down the questioning. Macdonald again attempts to shut down the questioning:
“It is not constant interjection madam chair, asking what conversations happened between the Prime Minister and a minister is the first time I’ve ever heard this to be allowed in Senate Estimates committee,” he says. It is not constant interjection madam chair, asking what conversations happened between the prime minister and a minister is the first time I’ve ever heard this to be allowed in Senate estimates committee.” he says.
“That is not a point of order. It is up to the minister to answer it in whatever way she chooses,” Reynolds replies. Reynolds responds:
That is not a point of order. It is up to the minister to answer it in whatever way she chooses.”
The committee has come back today specifically to deal with this issue.The committee has come back today specifically to deal with this issue.
Updated
at 11.40pm BST
11.25pm BST11.25pm BST
23:2523:25
Michaelia Cash then makes a point of defending David De Garis:Michaelia Cash then makes a point of defending David De Garis:
Can I also just say, Chair, in relation to this particular staff member, [whose name she said has been made unfortunately public] it is actually very brave of him to also come forward and to admit his mistake and lose his employment as a result of what he did. Unlike many others who lie every single day of the week, I will not get into that now but this staff member came forward and admitted to me he had mislead me. Can I also just say, chair, in relation to this particular staff member, [whose name she said has been made unfortunately public] it is actually very brave of him to also come forward and to admit his mistake and lose his employment as a result of what he did. Unlike many others who lie every single day of the week, I will not get into that now but this staff member came forward and admitted to me he had mislead me.”
Updated
at 11.38pm BST
11.24pm BST11.24pm BST
23:2423:24
Senator Ian Macdonald attempts to shut down the line of questioning. Senator Ian Macdonald attempts to shut down the line of questioning:
“How can you possibly allow a question that has nothing to do with the estimates before us where this person is asking what conversations they had with staff and with the Prime Minister. That is simply not allowable and you might ask the clerk for some advice.” How can you possibly allow a question that has nothing to do with the estimates before us where this person is asking what conversations they had with staff and with the prime minister. That is simply not allowable and you might ask the clerk for some advice.”
Linda Reynolds shuts him down immediately and returns to Labor’s questioning.Linda Reynolds shuts him down immediately and returns to Labor’s questioning.
“That is editorial, that is not a point of order. Senator Cameron.” That is editorial, that is not a point of order.”
Updated
at 11.34pm BST
11.21pm BST11.21pm BST
23:2123:21
Cash said it did not occur to her there had been a leak when she saw the AWU raids on television, as “you often turn on the TV at night and see a police or journalistic presence at something”.Cash said it did not occur to her there had been a leak when she saw the AWU raids on television, as “you often turn on the TV at night and see a police or journalistic presence at something”.
She brings up Penny Wong’s staffer Marcus Ganley and his actions during the New Zealand/Barnaby Joyce citizenship saga:She brings up Penny Wong’s staffer Marcus Ganley and his actions during the New Zealand/Barnaby Joyce citizenship saga:
My staff member mislead me. I am incredibly disappointed. I am assuming as Senator Wong was when she found out about her staff member and the fact that they had had discussions with the Labour Party in New Zealand. As Senator Wong also stated in all of the evidence she gave, she was not aware. I gave evidence yesterday. I was not aware. I am very, very disappointed now in my staff member and as a result he has resigned his employment.”My staff member mislead me. I am incredibly disappointed. I am assuming as Senator Wong was when she found out about her staff member and the fact that they had had discussions with the Labour Party in New Zealand. As Senator Wong also stated in all of the evidence she gave, she was not aware. I gave evidence yesterday. I was not aware. I am very, very disappointed now in my staff member and as a result he has resigned his employment.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.27pm BSTat 11.27pm BST
11.18pm BST11.18pm BST
23:1823:18
Doug Cameron is now questioning Cash over what she knew and when:Doug Cameron is now questioning Cash over what she knew and when:
Around 11:00am I asked you when you or your office or the department were advised about the warrant and you indicated that: ‘I’d need to go and check with my office but I would assume 4:30, 4:45, whenever, I was in a meeting and came back.’ I asked again whether you of your office advised any other person about the raid and you answered: ‘No.’Around 11:00am I asked you when you or your office or the department were advised about the warrant and you indicated that: ‘I’d need to go and check with my office but I would assume 4:30, 4:45, whenever, I was in a meeting and came back.’ I asked again whether you of your office advised any other person about the raid and you answered: ‘No.’
I asked whether you were confident that no one in your office knew about this and you indicated: ‘I’d have to go and check with my office.’ I asked again, ‘Did you advise any journalist about any issue arising from this last night?’ You said, ‘I’d need to speak with my office but I don’t believe so, no.’I asked whether you were confident that no one in your office knew about this and you indicated: ‘I’d have to go and check with my office.’ I asked again, ‘Did you advise any journalist about any issue arising from this last night?’ You said, ‘I’d need to speak with my office but I don’t believe so, no.’
I then asked: ‘So did any ministerial office staff know about the raid and tell anyone about the raid before it commenced?’ And after being pressed you said: ‘I have full faith in my staff, senator Cameron.’ Do you still have full faith in your staff?”I then asked: ‘So did any ministerial office staff know about the raid and tell anyone about the raid before it commenced?’ And after being pressed you said: ‘I have full faith in my staff, senator Cameron.’ Do you still have full faith in your staff?”
Cash responded:Cash responded:
I stand by the evidence that I gave at the time. The evidence that I gave was based on the knowledge that I possessed at the time. As I advised you yesterday, during the dinner break yesterday I sought further assurances from my staff and I was advised, as it is now public knowledge, that without my knowledge one staff member in my office, in the course of discussions with journalists indicated that he had received information that a raid may take place.I stand by the evidence that I gave at the time. The evidence that I gave was based on the knowledge that I possessed at the time. As I advised you yesterday, during the dinner break yesterday I sought further assurances from my staff and I was advised, as it is now public knowledge, that without my knowledge one staff member in my office, in the course of discussions with journalists indicated that he had received information that a raid may take place.
As I said yesterday, he conveyed that to journalists. I was not aware of it at the time and I was not aware of it when I gave those answers yesterday in estimates. All answers that I gave were based on the knowledge that I had at the time. At the earliest opportunity I came to this committee and I advised that I had been made aware that a staff member had unfortunately mislead me.”As I said yesterday, he conveyed that to journalists. I was not aware of it at the time and I was not aware of it when I gave those answers yesterday in estimates. All answers that I gave were based on the knowledge that I had at the time. At the earliest opportunity I came to this committee and I advised that I had been made aware that a staff member had unfortunately mislead me.”
Michaelia Cash says she was unable to get on to the staffer who resigned last night. Funny, I got through to him pretty easily.Michaelia Cash says she was unable to get on to the staffer who resigned last night. Funny, I got through to him pretty easily.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.26pm BSTat 11.26pm BST
11.14pm BST11.14pm BST
23:1423:14
Michaelia Cash said she was unable to get in contact with her staffer when the hearing adjourned last night. She said it was “always sad when a staff member has to leave”.Michaelia Cash said she was unable to get in contact with her staffer when the hearing adjourned last night. She said it was “always sad when a staff member has to leave”.
11.12pm BST11.12pm BST
23:1223:12
Tanya Plibersek has joined the chorus calling for Michaelia Cash to resign:Tanya Plibersek has joined the chorus calling for Michaelia Cash to resign:
Explosive revelations in the Senate last night show the employment minister, Michaelia Cash, misled the parliament on five occasions. It is extraordinary to have a minister repeatedly mislead in the way that she did, and it is inconceivable that the minister did not know that her office was involved in tipping off journalists about a police raid. Of course, ministers have resigned for much less than this. Ministers have resigned for misleading once. It is absolutely inconceivable that the minister didn’t know about the involvement of her office. She should resign. And I expect that she will have resigned by the end of the day. But if she hasn’t, the prime minister should sack her. He should show some leadership, show that he demands high standards of his ministers, and take action himself.”Explosive revelations in the Senate last night show the employment minister, Michaelia Cash, misled the parliament on five occasions. It is extraordinary to have a minister repeatedly mislead in the way that she did, and it is inconceivable that the minister did not know that her office was involved in tipping off journalists about a police raid. Of course, ministers have resigned for much less than this. Ministers have resigned for misleading once. It is absolutely inconceivable that the minister didn’t know about the involvement of her office. She should resign. And I expect that she will have resigned by the end of the day. But if she hasn’t, the prime minister should sack her. He should show some leadership, show that he demands high standards of his ministers, and take action himself.”
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.18pm BSTat 11.18pm BST
11.11pm BST11.11pm BST
23:1123:11
Minister recommends matter is referred to the AFPMinister recommends matter is referred to the AFP
Michaelia Cash has written to the Registered Organisations Commission suggesting the matter be referred to the Australian federal police.Michaelia Cash has written to the Registered Organisations Commission suggesting the matter be referred to the Australian federal police.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.16pm BSTat 11.16pm BST
11.07pm BST11.07pm BST
23:0723:07
Paul KarpPaul Karp
At the conclusion of Wednesday’s hearing a lot of Labor’s questioning was directed at what Fair Work Ombudsman media adviser Mark Lee knew about the AFP raid.At the conclusion of Wednesday’s hearing a lot of Labor’s questioning was directed at what Fair Work Ombudsman media adviser Mark Lee knew about the AFP raid.
Lee worked with the new Registered Organisations Commission’s media adviser, who has only been in the role two weeks. ROC executive director, Chris Enright, told estimates Lee’s role was to help the new adviser and it was “reasonable” to conclude that if something big like a raid were in the offing they would have collaborated.Lee worked with the new Registered Organisations Commission’s media adviser, who has only been in the role two weeks. ROC executive director, Chris Enright, told estimates Lee’s role was to help the new adviser and it was “reasonable” to conclude that if something big like a raid were in the offing they would have collaborated.
Enright said that the ROC media adviser knew about the raid at 4pm, but said he was “confident” that is not the source of the leak.Enright said that the ROC media adviser knew about the raid at 4pm, but said he was “confident” that is not the source of the leak.
Questioning from Senator Kimberley Kitching noted that Lee worked with one of Michaelia Cash’s media advisers (the one who hasn’t resigned, by the way) in former Victorian premier Dennis Napthine’s office.Questioning from Senator Kimberley Kitching noted that Lee worked with one of Michaelia Cash’s media advisers (the one who hasn’t resigned, by the way) in former Victorian premier Dennis Napthine’s office.
Doug Cameron flagged a desire to recall the FWO, so expect Lee to be a person of interest in today’s questioning.Doug Cameron flagged a desire to recall the FWO, so expect Lee to be a person of interest in today’s questioning.
Guardian Australia has contacted Lee for comment.Guardian Australia has contacted Lee for comment.
UpdatedUpdated
at 11.15pm BSTat 11.15pm BST
11.07pm BST
23:07
The committee has returned
Chair Linda Reynolds (Lib) is opening proceedings.
11.06pm BST
23:06
Tony Burke disagreed, telling Sky her position was untenable:
Here is what we are meant to believe, that Michaelia Cash misled the Senate five times on what she herself said was a very serious allegation that she was offended to hear. We are meant to believe her office watched her do that and didn’t tell her what had happened. What was revealed last night ... was before question time, Michaelia Cash went specifically to the prime minister and the person from her staff who has now left her office, who advised the media, was with her at the meeting with the prime minister and she went to the prime minister to respond to allegations that had been made yesterday morning by Anthony Albanese ... it was the allegation that her office had been calling the media about the raid.
We are meant to believe that with the member of staff who made those calls there with her, Michaelia Cash told the prime minister, ‘oh, with the Anthony Albanese allegation, I never made any calls’, and we are meant to believe that Malcolm Turnbull as a trained cross-examiner, never said ‘no, no, the allegation is about your office and your officer is there with you’. Either Malcolm Turnbull did ask and we’re not being told, or he knew to not ask. It defies belief that an allegation about her office, when she’s misled the Senate five times, that her office don’t tell her ‘hang on, this is what has happened’, that they then go with her to the prime minister of Australia and he as a trained cross-examiner doesn’t go ‘oh hang on the allegation is about your office, not about you.’ This defies belief.”
Updated
at 11.10pm BST
10.59pm BST
22:59
Darren Chester has also been out on Sky News defending Cash.
There is no question it is a bad result for us when you have a senior member of staff resigning, making an error of judgment, that as I described at the very start of our conversation, it is not the first time it has occurred, the former prime minister’s media advisor unfortunately tipped off protesters at Australia Day 2012 (to Tony Abbott’s location) and resigned at the time and the prime minister continued in the role. I think it is over reach by Labor to say minister Cash has done anything wrong.
Updated
at 11.05pm BST
10.55pm BST
22:55
But someone may have failed to advise Christopher Pyne of Mark Bielecki’s correction. Here is some of what he had to say at a brief press conference this morning, where he repeated the incorrect information (as corrected by Bielecki) that the AWU did not cooperate when first asked:
This is not a Joh Bjelke-Petersen moment on the 7.30 Report. I’m not going to let this cloud the issue here. I’m sure the Labor party would vastly prefer us to be talking about the Westminster system of government – not one with which they’ve had a close attachment, by the way, over the last few decades – but nevertheless the issue here is that the AWU didn’t pass over the documents that were required to the Registered Organisations Commission to prove that the law had not been breached. Bill Shorten has never cooperated, not with you in the fourth estate and not with the Registered Organisations Commission in handing over these documents from the very beginning. Now, many of you may have been at press conferences with Bill Shorten where you’ve asked him time and again about these payments and how they were approved and why they were made and how he was on the board of GetUp as well as being the national secretary of the AWU and the conflicts of interest involved and he never answered your questions. So you have just as much of an interest in the Registered Organisations Commission and theAustralian public in getting to the bottom of this matter.
Updated
at 11.07pm BST
10.50pm BST
22:50
Updated
at 10.52pm BST
10.45pm BST
22:45
ROC forced to correct the record
The head of the Registered Organisations Commission, Mark Bielecki, also fronted the estimates hearing overnight.
He gave a brief rundown of the investigation into the AWU, and in answer to a question from Labor senator Kimberly Kitching, said the organisation had asked the union for the documents in question but received a letter from their lawyers declining to pass them on.
But later, he corrected the record.
Bielecki: Senator Kitching can I just go back to an answer I gave you previously when I said that not all notices to produce had been fulfilled by the AWU? That’s not correct. I got them confused with a different registered organisation. So, I withdraw that answer.
Kitching: : So, just to be clear, you’ve withdrawn that answer, so there is full compliance, why did you not use an Notice to produce when the AWU has always complied with every notice to produce that has always been served, why did you decide on a raid?
Bielecki: As Mr Enright has said, we are not discuss that further.
The reason for the raid, the committee was told later, was because the ROC had received a phone call to a ROC staffer, who advised them there was a risk documents may be destroyed.
There were no details given on the identity of the caller, or the ROC staffer who took the call.
Updated
at 10.51pm BST
10.35pm BST
22:35
How we got here
Last night, employment Michaelia Cash defended the (five) times she denied that either she or her office had anything to do with the leak as saying she was unaware of her senior advisor, David De Garis’s actions. Despite spending a large portion of the day refuting her office had anything to do with the leak.
“Quite frankly, I am offended on behalf of my staff as to those allegations. They are very serious allegations,” Cash said at one point.
Then Buzzfeed published this story.
Cash was still in front of the estimates committee, as the government members were filibustering the hearing, to push back when the Registered Organisations Commission was due to appear. Labor senator Doug Cameron began questioning Cash over the story. She said she had not read it, but stood by her earlier denials. The committee went on break.
Cash returned from the break and made a statement that her staffer, De Garis, had resigned after telling her he had passed on details of the raid to journalists, after learning of the event from “a media source”.
This was after Buzzfeed had called for comment. And after Cash advised the prime minister that her office was not responsible, a declaration Malcolm Turnbull repeated during question time.
Labor senator Murray Watt found it almost impossible to believe that her staff let her make the denials without coming forward.
Over the course of today, since you have begun making these denials, there has been a morning tea break, a lunch break, an afternoon tea break, You are sitting there with an iPad, a laptop and a mobile phone and not at any point did your staff bring this to your attention, until the dinner break.”
“That is correct,” Cash said.
Updated
at 11.29pm BST
10.17pm BST
22:17
The Greens are joining Labor in calling for Michaelia Cash to go:
Here is what Adam Bandt had to say this morning:
Well, Michaelia Cash’s position is untenable. Here’s what we now know: on Tuesday, Minister Cash’s senior staffer tipped off media about raids that were about to occur. On Wednesday morning, minister Cash spent some time with that senior staffer and then fronted up to the Senate and said, not once, but five times, that neither she nor her staff had anything to do with it. It turns out that was completely untrue. So there’s really only three options – either minister Cash is incompetent at running an office, in which case she should resign as minister. Secondly, she either doesn’t care whether she tells the truth to the Senate, in which case she should resign at minister. Or, thirdly, she deliberately lied to the Senate, in which case, she should resign as minister.
These were highly politicised raids, which we said so – we said that from the start. This has been, there’s been raids orchestrated by someone who is not a watchdog, but is an attack dog. And it turns out that the minister and her office were up to their neck in it and then were quite happy to go and mislead the Senate about what they knew. Her position is completely untenable.
As for the convention, Bandt had this to say:
At some point, the Westminster system has to kick in and ministers have to take responsibility for the departments that they’re running and the staff who are underneath them and it’s not good enough to try and find scapegoats. If you’re prepared to walk into the Senate and tell them, five times, that you or your staff had nothing to do with it and then, um, after having spent the day with the staffer in question, then you either are incompetent or you’re prepared to, um, mislead the Senate. Either way, the minister has got to go. What we also need to now get to the bottom of is another very, very serious question – who told the minister’s office that the raids were about to occur? Because there’s potentially – it’s potentially a criminal offence to do that. We need to get a straight answer to that. The fact that the minister is not interested in finding out the answer to that question speaks volumes about this. And we hope to find out, very, very soon, the full story behind this, because potentially there’s been a criminal – been criminal offences committed. But there’s certainly, certainly been misconduct that demands that the minister must go.
Updated
at 10.33pm BST
10.13pm BST
22:13
Christopher Pyne says Cash has 'done the right thing'
Gareth Hutchens
Christopher Pyne has defended Michaelia Cash this morning.
He said Cash’s staffer who tipped off the media to the AWU raid, David De Garis, is a great guy and a long-term Liberal staffer, who had a lapse of judgment.
He said Cash did not mislead the Senate.
He said she told the truth, but as soon as she found out she’d been misled by her staffer she corrected the record.
“Now that’s all you can ask her to do in the circumstances and I think she’s done the right thing.”
When asked about Labor’s point that under the Westminster system of government Cash should be responsible for the behaviour of her staff, Pyne said he would not be lectured by the Labor party about the Westminster system.
“We just recently saw a Penny Wong staffer being at the centre of a campaign to try to remove the deputy prime minister of Australia,” he said.
“That staffer wasn’t required to resign and is still working in the building.”
Nick Xenophon has already questioned that comparison of Pyne’s.
“In Penny Wong’s office that was quite contentious, but that’s quite different from leaking information to the media about a police raid where arguably that could prejudice the operation,” Xenophon said.
“It could have all sorts of implications that I think could be adverse, both to the organisations involved and to the party being investigated.”
However, Xenophon said has always found Cash to be an honest person. He said she has always been very honest in her dealings with him and he believes she didn’t know that her staffer had tipped off the media.
Updated
at 10.35pm BST
10.13pm BST
22:13
Good morning
What a night that was.
Michaelia Cash admitted her office was responsible for leaking the details of the AWU raids to the media, setting off a series of events that continue today.
It came after the minister denied, five times, either she or her staff had anything to do with the information reaching the media.
She says she was unaware of her senior media advisor, David De Garis’s, actions until he told her during the dinner break of last night’s estimates hearing. He resigned, but Cash faced hours of questioning over what she knew, when and why she denied something she says she never asked.
Labor is demanding she resign. Senators Murray Watt, Don Farrell and Doug Cameron pushed Cash for hours, invoking the Westminster convention that a minister takes responsibility for the actions of their office.
Government ministers have been out since dawn defending Cash. Christian Porter said “Michaelia Cash simply did not know”, while Christopher Pyne said the minister had been “misled” and did all she could to correct the record when she knew.
But the staffer involved is not a random departmental member. De Garis is one of her senior advisors, who was with her when she advised the prime minister that the leak did not come from her office. It is hard to see how she makes it through this still in the ministry.
The hearing, which is being in the same room as “Utegate” was revealed, resumes at 9am.
But the government enters the day facing the loss of Cash from the ministry, a day before it potentially loses Barnaby Joyce, Fiona Nash and Matt Canavan. If that occurs, that’s about 20% of the cabinet in one week.
Let’s get right to it. Comments are open and you can reach Mike Bowers at @mpbowers and me at @amyremeikis.
It is going to be a long day. Hope you’re ready.
Updated
at 11.20pm BST