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Trump impeachment hearings: Sondland says 'We followed the president's orders' – live Trump impeachment hearings: Sondland says 'We followed the president's orders' – live
(32 minutes later)
The US ambassador to the EU has delivered bombshell testimony that deals serious blows to Trump’s defense of his role on UkraineThe US ambassador to the EU has delivered bombshell testimony that deals serious blows to Trump’s defense of his role on Ukraine
They’re back and Nunes begins.
He sets off asking Sondland the exact same questions he has asked every potentially hostile witness, about the 2016 Ukrainian election tampering conspiracy theory.
It’s as if it does not matter what the witnesses say. The Republicans, regardless, will go tilting at their windmills.
Is Giuliani going under the bus?
You’ll recall:
Et tu, Drudge?
One of the crises of American public life is that we receive our news through such a fractured media lens, and so consumers of say the Guardian might come away with one perception of events whereas people who watch Fox News are seeing something totally diff...
Huh?
Further reaction:
So many significant lines from that cross-examination.
Giuliani retweeted this during Sondland’s testimony:
From a former federal prosecutor...
...and FBI special agent...
...and federal prosecutor...
...and Fox news:
In the room is the Guardian’s Julian Borger:
Will the Republicans focus on the fact that Sondland is saying he took direction from Trump via Giuliani – trying to prize Giuliani away from the president? Will the Republicans attack Giuliani?
Or will they attack Sondland, pointing out how much his testimony has changed since last month?
Or will they ignore everything we’ve heard this morning to rant about the whistleblower and Hunter Biden?
Goldman is done. Five minute recess before Nunes speaks.
What will the Republicans have to say to that?
Sondland on the demand that Zelenskiy himself make the announcement:
Sondland: As of 8 September, “It was abundantly clear to everyone that there was a link [between military aid and an announcement of investigations], and we were discussing the chicken and egg issue of should the Ukrainians go out on a ledge and make the statement president Trump wants them to make” but risk not getting aid.
“I was absolutely convinced” of the link between aid and investigations, Sondland said, including after a call with the president.
President Trump did not dissuade you of that?
“I do not recall...”
Sondland put two and two together and figured out the military aid was conditioned on the investigations, he said:
“President Trump never told me directly that the military aid was conditioned on the investigations,” Sondland said, but Giuliani said “the Burisma and 2016 elections were conditioned on the White House meetings.”
That contradicts Bill Taylor testimony about the nature of the quid pro quo, that Sondland told Taylor that Trump demanded investigations for aid.
But “I never heard from president Trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement of elections [sic],” Sondland says.
When Sondland brought up investigations in a conversation in Warsaw with the vice-president, Mike Pence, and Ukrainians, Sondland says, Pence did no express suprise, shock or ignorance.
Goldman: “He didn’t say, Gordon what are you talking about?”
Sondland: “No”
Goldman: “He didn’t say, Gordon, what investigations?”
Sondland: “He did not.”
Sondland continuously clarifies that what Trump wanted through Giuliani was an announcement of investigations as distinct and separate from actual investigations.Sondland continuously clarifies that what Trump wanted through Giuliani was an announcement of investigations as distinct and separate from actual investigations.
The difference being that only one of those things can be used in a campaign video attacking Joe Biden.The difference being that only one of those things can be used in a campaign video attacking Joe Biden.
Sondland recalls Zelenskiy asking in Warsaw “why don’t I have my check” or something like that.Sondland recalls Zelenskiy asking in Warsaw “why don’t I have my check” or something like that.
Sondland figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo, he says.Sondland figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo, he says.
Goldman: was this kind of a 2+2=4? You figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo?Goldman: was this kind of a 2+2=4? You figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo?
Sondland: Yup.Sondland: Yup.
Sondland says again that the announcement of investigations was more important than actual investigations:Sondland says again that the announcement of investigations was more important than actual investigations:
Goldman points out that a public announcement works well as a political tool.Goldman points out that a public announcement works well as a political tool.
Now, on Sondland’s access to Trump:Now, on Sondland’s access to Trump:
Sondland says he is now aware that Trump wanted a Biden investigation.Sondland says he is now aware that Trump wanted a Biden investigation.
Dan Goldman, the Democratic council, is cementing the Trump-Giuliani axis, no daylight here:Dan Goldman, the Democratic council, is cementing the Trump-Giuliani axis, no daylight here:
Goldman: Giuliani spoke for the president? Correct?Goldman: Giuliani spoke for the president? Correct?
Sondland says he probably said Trump “doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine” but denies, per David Holmes’ (Kyiv restaurant) testimony, that he said Trump only cares about the “big stuff” ie whatever helps Trump:Sondland says he probably said Trump “doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine” but denies, per David Holmes’ (Kyiv restaurant) testimony, that he said Trump only cares about the “big stuff” ie whatever helps Trump:
Sondland confirms he told Trump on phone call at a Kyiv restaurant that Zelenskiy “loves your ass, he’ll do whatever you want”.Sondland confirms he told Trump on phone call at a Kyiv restaurant that Zelenskiy “loves your ass, he’ll do whatever you want”.
Sondland’s reply gets a laugh from the audience:Sondland’s reply gets a laugh from the audience:
This inability to connect Burisma and Biden that is so hot right now among impeachment witnesses is truly difficult to credit:
Here are some preliminary reactions to Sondland’s testimony:
Sondland is detailing the quid pro quo:
That implies that Trump was not interested in fighting corruption. He was interested in a TV moment he could batter Joe Biden with.
Sondland:
Schiff is literally using the language of the central charge and Sondland is confirming it, with a caveat involving Giuliani:
That official act was conditioned on what the president wanted “as expressed by Mr Giuliani,” Sondland said.
Reminder: Trump thinks Sondland is “a really good man and great American.”
Now Sondland is talking about a phone conversation in which Trump told him there was no quid pro quo. Earlier Sondland had said he took the president at his word. Now Sondland is saying he and everyone else knew there was a clear quid pro quo.
Sondland said after “frantic emails to me and to others about the security assistance” from ambassador Bill Taylor, Sondland called Trump and asked, “what do you want from Ukraine... what do you want?”
Schiff is driving down on what the Mike Ps – Pompeo and Pence – knew and when they knew it.
Did Pompeo ever deny the connection between investigations and the White House meeting?
In a meeting with the vice-president in Warsaw, Sondland said he told Pence that he thought the military aid would not flow without the announcement of investigations.
Pence remained sphynxlike, in Sondland’s telling:
Schiff is asking Sondland to describe the “continuum of insidiousness” down which the US requests of Ukraine descended between May and September.
It went from a request to fight corruption to requests for an announcement of investigations of Burisma and 2016.
Sondland, like Volker, said he did not connect the “Burisma” investigation with “Biden” at the time. That’s hard to credit but also hard to disprove.
“Biden did not come up,” Sondland says. “Today I know exactly what it means. I didn’t know at the time.”
With each line of his testimony, Sondland has blown another hole in Donald Trump’s defenses. To describe the testimony as a bombshell is perhaps to underestimate its potential for damage to Trump. To attempt to describe the shock that it is Sondland delivering this message is to come up short for words.
Since the impeachment inquiry began, Trump has ranted that there was no quid pro quo with Ukraine, no conditions placed on a White House meeting, no strings on US military aid, only a desire to fight corruption in Ukraine and to pursue the truth about 2016. It is all a witch hunt, a hoax, Trump has said.
But every bit of it is true, and most every word from Trump’s mouth and his Twitter about it has been a lie, Sondland is testifying. There was a clear quid pro quo, repeatedly stated, and explicitly ordered by Trump through his designated agent, Rudy Giuliani.
Sondland is saying: he did it.
Sondland is also saying: we did it. He is quoting emails demonstrating that the plot, which secretary of state Mike Pompeo once pretended ignorance to, was well known inside the state department, National Security Council and budget office – and by vice president Mike Pence. “It was no secret,” Sondland said.
Now he begins a cross-examination period sure to generate moments that will go down in US political history.
Now Sondland quotes from an email that the state department has refused to release.
Significant are the names CC’d – the secretary of state, secretary of energy, the acting chief of staff... all of whom have refused congressional subpoenas to testify or provide documents:
This testimony goes directly against Trump’s case to the extent that the only way to rebut it seems to be to attack Sondland, who definitely was not saying this stuff in his original testimony: