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Trump impeachment hearings: Sondland says 'We followed the president's orders' – live Impeachment hearings: Sondland says quid pro quo was pushed by Giuliani and ordered by Trump - live
(32 minutes later)
The US ambassador to the EU has delivered bombshell testimony that deals serious blows to Trump’s defense of his role on UkraineThe US ambassador to the EU has delivered bombshell testimony that deals serious blows to Trump’s defense of his role on Ukraine
Good point about the timing of the whistleblower complaint and the internal discussion of the quid pro quo going underground:
Sondland doesn’t remember when he figured out “Burisma” meant “Biden.”
“I can’t recall the exact date the light bulb went on. It could have been as late as when the transcript was out. It was always Burisma to me.”
The record of the 25 July call, in which Trump requests the investigation of Joe Biden, came out two months after the fact.
Sondland says “I was shocked” to learn that John Bolton/Fiona Hill thought he was engaged in a “drug deal” on Ukraine.
Shocked because from Sondland’s perspective, everybody knew what was up.
Weird scene, and hard to hear. When’s the last time we saw Trump speaking from notes?
Giuliani declares case closed. (He incorrectly refers to the 25 July call as happening a day earlier, and he totally mischaracterizes the contents of the call, in which Trump says US help for Ukraine has not been reciprocal and asks Zelenskiy for a “favor”.)
When Trump wishes to distance himself from an associate implicated in a crime – or, in this case, implicating him in misconduct – Trump says he does not know or hardly knows that person, from Michael Cohen to Paul Manafort to Gordon Sondland.
Outside the White House just then, Trump does not know Sondland very well:
Castor on when Trump told Sondland there was “no quid pro quo”:
Q: You believed the president, correct?
A: You know what I’m not going to characterize whether I believed or didn’t believe.
Sondland reiterates that his ability to testify fully has been harmed by his (and the committee’s) lack of access to state department documents:
Castor, the Republican lawyer, asks Sondland if Trump ever told him personally that aid or a meeting were conditioned on an announcement of investigations.
Sondland: “Personally, no.”
Castor: So how did you know Giuliani spoke for Trump?
Sondland: “Well when the president says talk to my personal attorney and then Mr Giuliani says ‘as the president’s attorney,’ we assume it’s coming from the president.
Then Castor splits hairs between Trump saying “Go talk to Rudy” and “Talk to Rudy”. It wasn’t an order, correct? Castor says.
We understood we had to talk to Rudy to get anything done on Ukraine, Sondland said.
Vice-president Mike Pence’s office denies that the scene with Sondland in Warsaw happened. From Pence chief of staff Marc Short, per @maggieNYT:
Nunes: Are you one of the three amigos?
Sondland: I’m a proud part of the three amigos.
Nunes: And that’s the same thing that Amassador Volker said yesterday.
Volker, yesterday: I literally cringe when people say three amigos.
They’re back and Nunes begins.They’re back and Nunes begins.
He sets off asking Sondland the exact same questions he has asked every potentially hostile witness, about the 2016 Ukrainian election tampering conspiracy theory.He sets off asking Sondland the exact same questions he has asked every potentially hostile witness, about the 2016 Ukrainian election tampering conspiracy theory.
It’s as if it does not matter what the witnesses say. The Republicans, regardless, will go tilting at their windmills.It’s as if it does not matter what the witnesses say. The Republicans, regardless, will go tilting at their windmills.
Is Giuliani going under the bus?Is Giuliani going under the bus?
You’ll recall:You’ll recall:
Et tu, Drudge?Et tu, Drudge?
One of the crises of American public life is that we receive our news through such a fractured media lens, and so consumers of say the Guardian might come away with one perception of events whereas people who watch Fox News are seeing something totally diff...One of the crises of American public life is that we receive our news through such a fractured media lens, and so consumers of say the Guardian might come away with one perception of events whereas people who watch Fox News are seeing something totally diff...
Huh?Huh?
Further reaction:Further reaction:
So many significant lines from that cross-examination.So many significant lines from that cross-examination.
Giuliani retweeted this during Sondland’s testimony:Giuliani retweeted this during Sondland’s testimony:
From a former federal prosecutor...From a former federal prosecutor...
...and FBI special agent......and FBI special agent...
...and federal prosecutor......and federal prosecutor...
...and Fox news:...and Fox news:
In the room is the Guardian’s Julian Borger:In the room is the Guardian’s Julian Borger:
Will the Republicans focus on the fact that Sondland is saying he took direction from Trump via Giuliani – trying to prize Giuliani away from the president? Will the Republicans attack Giuliani?Will the Republicans focus on the fact that Sondland is saying he took direction from Trump via Giuliani – trying to prize Giuliani away from the president? Will the Republicans attack Giuliani?
Or will they attack Sondland, pointing out how much his testimony has changed since last month?Or will they attack Sondland, pointing out how much his testimony has changed since last month?
Or will they ignore everything we’ve heard this morning to rant about the whistleblower and Hunter Biden?Or will they ignore everything we’ve heard this morning to rant about the whistleblower and Hunter Biden?
Goldman is done. Five minute recess before Nunes speaks.
What will the Republicans have to say to that?
Sondland on the demand that Zelenskiy himself make the announcement:
Sondland: As of 8 September, “It was abundantly clear to everyone that there was a link [between military aid and an announcement of investigations], and we were discussing the chicken and egg issue of should the Ukrainians go out on a ledge and make the statement president Trump wants them to make” but risk not getting aid.
“I was absolutely convinced” of the link between aid and investigations, Sondland said, including after a call with the president.
President Trump did not dissuade you of that?
“I do not recall...”
Sondland put two and two together and figured out the military aid was conditioned on the investigations, he said:
“President Trump never told me directly that the military aid was conditioned on the investigations,” Sondland said, but Giuliani said “the Burisma and 2016 elections were conditioned on the White House meetings.”
That contradicts Bill Taylor testimony about the nature of the quid pro quo, that Sondland told Taylor that Trump demanded investigations for aid.
But “I never heard from president Trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement of elections [sic],” Sondland says.
When Sondland brought up investigations in a conversation in Warsaw with the vice-president, Mike Pence, and Ukrainians, Sondland says, Pence did no express suprise, shock or ignorance.
Goldman: “He didn’t say, Gordon what are you talking about?”
Sondland: “No”
Goldman: “He didn’t say, Gordon, what investigations?”
Sondland: “He did not.”
Sondland continuously clarifies that what Trump wanted through Giuliani was an announcement of investigations as distinct and separate from actual investigations.
The difference being that only one of those things can be used in a campaign video attacking Joe Biden.
Sondland recalls Zelenskiy asking in Warsaw “why don’t I have my check” or something like that.
Sondland figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo, he says.
Goldman: was this kind of a 2+2=4? You figured that the military aid was also part of quid pro quo?
Sondland: Yup.
Sondland says again that the announcement of investigations was more important than actual investigations:
Goldman points out that a public announcement works well as a political tool.
Now, on Sondland’s access to Trump:
Sondland says he is now aware that Trump wanted a Biden investigation.
Dan Goldman, the Democratic council, is cementing the Trump-Giuliani axis, no daylight here:
Goldman: Giuliani spoke for the president? Correct?
Sondland says he probably said Trump “doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine” but denies, per David Holmes’ (Kyiv restaurant) testimony, that he said Trump only cares about the “big stuff” ie whatever helps Trump:
Sondland confirms he told Trump on phone call at a Kyiv restaurant that Zelenskiy “loves your ass, he’ll do whatever you want”.
Sondland’s reply gets a laugh from the audience: