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| Sack Ken Clarke over rape comments - Miliband | |
| (40 minutes later) | |
| Ken Clarke should be sacked as justice secretary following his remarks about rape on BBC Radio 5 Live, Labour leader Ed Miliband has said. | |
| Mr Clarke disputed claims changes to sentencing rules could see rapists let out in 15 months for pleading guilty. | |
| He said violent "serious rape" had longer terms and average sentencing figures were skewed by underage sex between consenting teenagers. | |
| Mr Miliband said the PM should distance himself from the remarks. | |
| At prime minister's questions, Mr Miliband said Mr Clarke had suggested there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape" adding: "The justice secretary can't speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that." | |
| The prime minister said he had not heard the interview - but Mr Miliband told him to go back and listen to it, adding: "The justice secretary should not be in his post at the end of today." | |
| The row follows plans to halve jail terms for people who plead guilty early, including rapists, who on average are sentenced to five years. | |
| At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales. | At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales. |
| Labour former solicitor general Vera Baird QC told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the standard sentence for rape started at five years, which was "not an enormously high sentence already for an injurious crime". | Labour former solicitor general Vera Baird QC told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the standard sentence for rape started at five years, which was "not an enormously high sentence already for an injurious crime". |
| "If you are talking about halving it to two-and-a-half years and then a person gets out halfway through their sentence on licence which is usual, then we are talking about sentences of 15 months which have no regard at all for the gravity of the offence and gives no time for rehabilitation or training," she said. | "If you are talking about halving it to two-and-a-half years and then a person gets out halfway through their sentence on licence which is usual, then we are talking about sentences of 15 months which have no regard at all for the gravity of the offence and gives no time for rehabilitation or training," she said. |
| The current discount of a third for an early guilty plea was the maximum and not automatic, she added. | The current discount of a third for an early guilty plea was the maximum and not automatic, she added. |
| But Mr Clarke told Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5live that rape cases were the "strongest example" of cases where a guilty plea should result in a sentence being halved. | But Mr Clarke told Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5live that rape cases were the "strongest example" of cases where a guilty plea should result in a sentence being halved. |
| He said it would stop rapists "messing about" and denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar... we still have far too many people who don't plead guilty in the first place". | He said it would stop rapists "messing about" and denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar... we still have far too many people who don't plead guilty in the first place". |
| He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense". | He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense". |
| 'Sometimes confusing' | 'Sometimes confusing' |
| On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.." | On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.." |
| "Serious rape - I don't think many judges give five years for a forcible rape frankly, the tariff is longer than that. A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that." | "Serious rape - I don't think many judges give five years for a forcible rape frankly, the tariff is longer than that. A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that." |
| Again pressed on the fact rapists could be out in 15 months: "I must stop you repeating this total nonsense that - assuming you and I are talking about rape in the ordinary conversational sense, some man has forcefully with a bit of violence..." | Again pressed on the fact rapists could be out in 15 months: "I must stop you repeating this total nonsense that - assuming you and I are talking about rape in the ordinary conversational sense, some man has forcefully with a bit of violence..." |
| When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15 year old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime." | When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15 year old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime." |
| He also said date rapes were included in the figures which could be "sometimes very confusing" adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decided on the circumstances." | He also said date rapes were included in the figures which could be "sometimes very confusing" adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decided on the circumstances." |
| He was challenged by a caller from a woman in London, who said she had been the victim of an attempted rape while training for the London marathon - and had fought the criminal justice system for 688 days, only for the rapist to have his sentence reduced for pleading guilty - and then go on to commit another offence. | He was challenged by a caller from a woman in London, who said she had been the victim of an attempted rape while training for the London marathon - and had fought the criminal justice system for 688 days, only for the rapist to have his sentence reduced for pleading guilty - and then go on to commit another offence. |
| She told him: "It happened to me. It's a disaster, especially with sex offenders." | She told him: "It happened to me. It's a disaster, especially with sex offenders." |
| But a Ministry of Justice spokesman added: "It also avoids the costs to the police, CPS and courts of cracked trials. | But a Ministry of Justice spokesman added: "It also avoids the costs to the police, CPS and courts of cracked trials. |
| "There is a long standing practice of sentence discounts being applied to those who enter an early guilty plea. | "There is a long standing practice of sentence discounts being applied to those who enter an early guilty plea. |
| "The government believes an increased discount for a guilty plea at the earliest opportunity, and a lower one for later pleas, would encourage defendants to plead guilty early on, sparing more victims and witnesses from the trauma of the trial process." | "The government believes an increased discount for a guilty plea at the earliest opportunity, and a lower one for later pleas, would encourage defendants to plead guilty early on, sparing more victims and witnesses from the trauma of the trial process." |